Boxing + Farming Should Require Multiple *Subscriptions*

[Rufkin]

I've been arguing for more integrity in this game since well before five years ago. Don't see any reason to stop now. "Whining" though it may be.

And I thank you for that. You and I are usually on the same side of most discussions. This one just seems to me like it is entirely too late. If the devs did decide to take a firm stance and ban boxing completely, then what is next? Do you think they will stop the farming that happens after every update? Do you think they will lower the rewards so people stop farming marks and medallions? Both of these topics are along the same lines of too much reward for too little effort. Evidence suggests that they will not. Instead they will take the easiest route to stop anything that is preventing them from making more money, like they did by increasing the price of small reputation tomes in this past update, but leave the broken reward system in place (like Thorog farming). Also in this last update, they used the excuse of the forums asking for no increase to LI levels. It seems to me they are all about the money. Therefore expecting any action to stop something that makes them more money with no effort (someone is paying for those GOV/BOVs, for instance) seems to be a lost cause, but good luck anyway.

[watevaplz]

Oh my goodness, have you forgotten the point of the conversation? Multiboxing isn't explicitly forbidden right now. Multiboxing *SHOULD BE* explicitly forbidden because it is an exploit. The ToS is not an exhaustive list of all exploits.

So base on hypothetical hyperbole, cause of the lag, cause of the inflation and WHAT YOU think is an exploit. Multiboxers base on these sets of fallacies should be forbidden. You guys should start a movement and tell every gaming company this. This is such a breaking news!

[Gyes]

So base on hypothetical hyperbole, cause of the lag, cause of the inflation and WHAT YOU think is an exploit. Multiboxers base on these sets of fallacies should be forbidden. You guys should start a movement and tell every gaming company this. This is such a breaking news!

Again, I'm not rehashing my points again with you. Simply choosing to ignore my responses don't make them go away. Go back and reread the thread again. Combat multiboxing is an exploit because you are misusing the game for your own personal profit, and, to make matters worse, at the expense of others.

[watevaplz]

Again, I'm not rehashing my points again with you. Simply choosing to ignore my responses don't make them go away. Go back and reread the thread again. Combat multiboxing is an exploit because you are misusing the game for your own personal profit, and, to make matters worse, at the expense of others.

So killing for personal profit (in game) in an MMO should be forbidden. Got it!

[Gyes]

So killing for personal profit (in game) in an MMO should be forbidden. Got it!

That's about the 5th time you've said that and for the 5th time, using 12 simultaneous accounts to kill should be forbidden. Honestly, just stop talking, admit to yourself that you're a cheater, and go back to cheating while you can.

[watevaplz]

That's about the 5th time you've said that and for the 5th time, using 12 simultaneous accounts to kill should be forbidden. Honestly, just stop talking, admit to yourself that you're a cheater, and go back to cheating while you can.

What is the general purpose of multiboxing (they can form a band, form a race, form a killing frenzy) so killing a mob faster is not allowed. Got it.

I already told you point to any ToS/EULA that shows I'm cheating FOR THE 5th TIME.

[Hurin]

Ok how about this show me in TOS / EULA where Multiboxers are exploiting and we can give this a rest. If it is not in there it is you and your set of rules that you want to create.

So it is your contention that exploitative behavior needs to be spelled out in the TOS/EULA and that anything not explicitly spelled out there is by definition allowed? That's. . . peculiar.

Question: When the argument being made is that the rules should be changed to explicitly address obviously exploitative behavior, what is the point of asking about the current rules?

But, since you asked. . .

(all bold and italics are my own emphasis)

1. LIMITATIONS ON LICENSE; RESPONSIBILITY OF END USER
You shall not. . . 6. use, post, host or distribute cheats, hacks, mods, macros, "bots" or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play (including, without limitation, any program which enables or facilitates mining, character kills, or level increases) in connection with any Game(s). . .

. . . now am I to believe that you don't use any program to facilitate control of your multiple toons? Mind you, I've gone out of my way to not mention a particular piece of software explicitly. . . but you know which one I mean. Pretty much everyone who boxes beyond the basics uses it. And, according to what I just posted, SSG could outlaw and sanction everyone using it today. They don't. But they could. Just as soon as they saw all your toons do one thing simultaneously (which is not possible while boxing with just merely the clients). And you wouldn't have a leg to stand on other than the fact that they chose not to enforce this part of the EULA prior (which is not a defense).

How about:

8. take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure;

or

Do anything that might interfere with or adversely affect any Daybreak Game(s).

Again, you're dead in the water if they start wanting to enforce this. Nobody ever told you you could run all six or eight of your accounts simultaneously. But this could easily be argued to mean that they're telling you that you can't/shouldn't. Hey, this is getting fun. I'm glad you told us to go look.

When running any Game(s), we may monitor your computer system or console for unauthorized third party programs running concurrently with any Game(s) which, in Daybreak's sole determination: (a) enable or facilitate cheating of any type;

So, all they need to do is decide that you hoovering up 6x or 12x the loot you should be getting for killing that mob is "cheating" and you're hosed. It's purely at their discretion. There's already enough written there to hang you if they but choose to do so.

Just some other fun bits that could very easily be used against you if they so chose. . . and your only defense is that they haven't used them yet.

Exploit any bug in any Daybreak Game(s) and to refrain from communicating the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the end user unnatural or unintended benefits to the user)

Of course we'll await your inevitable argument that they intended six, twelve, or even 24 game clients to funnel gold/loot to one person. Because, of course, that's what you need to say. Just as you willfully interpret their not closing that loophole as necessarily constituting endorsement of that behavior when it does not.

Again, there's plenty in the above that could be used to ban boxing/farming today if they chose to do so. And it's fully within our rights to ask them to consider doing so, or even making their EULA more explicit where these matters are concerned.

There is a reason, after all, why beginning boxers here and elsewhere (see the forums for the software mentione) constantly post: "Will I be banned?" posts. They know what they're doing. And they know that it is only allowed due to forbearance not due to explicit policy.

One final note on "integrity" of the game. . . I've been using that term for a long while now. I'm glad to see that Daybreak/SSG recognize the term too. Thanks for bringing this to my attention:

CHEATING
Maintaining the integrity of the Daybreak Games is extremely important to us. When an end user obtains an unfair advantage by cheating it can ruin the gaming experience for everybody else.

. . .

You may not develop, share, or use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users, except as expressly authorized by Daybreak.

So, enjoy never doing any simultaneous action (or different actions executed simultaneously) across clients in LotRO again.

Anyways, I'm bored now. I'm sure there's more.

--H

[Hurin]

Of course they will sue, define the game as F2P and ask players who are playing multiple accounts that is allowed to pay up?

Hmmmm, I guess you're right. It is easier and more straight-forward to just ban the behavior.

I hereby change my stance to just banning accounts found doing it. Happy now?

[watevaplz]

Lol the end user you posted clearly specify bots/macros and unattended gameplay. If I'm behind the monitor and my LMs are farming that means I'm in game. They clearly have one way to implement it. Is when a gm try to contact one of your toons if you don't reply then they ban. Someone obviously reported one of my toons and the gm contacted me which I replied. That is awesome they can catch macro/botters this way. They are doing their job

For your "changes" with said ToS: ---> there are no rules implying to conform with your hyperbole. I already debunked your caused about Multi-accounts causing the lag. That "hypothetical hyperbole future" of yours. Unless 10 years timeline of this "Hypothetical Future" is not enough for you.
Followed sets of rules in TOS:
---> When running the game, they can monitor yes they are doing their job. They did monitor my lms. Bravo!
---> What bug are we talking about? The mobs spawning in a regular rate and getting killed? If that is a bug then everyone is abusing it.
---> You still trying to label me as someone who will program and create a bot/macro to farm mobs? Then that is you.

So to break it down all the 3 you mentioned it conforms with bot / macro farmers which is not me. And "unattended" gameplay which again not me since I did respond to a GM. The "HYPERBOLE" FUTURE of yours that somehow cause "SSG's resources" to lag is base on your fantasies, why would they make rules that is base on a data that is make-belief? Why are you still stuck with your "HYPERBOLE HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE"?

So we can cross all of that out. Next ToS/EULA.

[Hurin]

Lol the end user you posted clearly specify bots/macros and unattended gameplay. If I'm behind the monitor and my LMs are farming that means I'm in game. They clearly have one way to implement it. Is when a gm try to contact one of your toons if you don't reply then they ban. Someone obviously reported one of my toons and the gm contacted me which I replied. That is awesome they can catch macro/botters this way. They are doing their job

For your "changes" with said ToS: ---> there are no rules implying to conform with your hyperbole. I already debunked your caused about Multi-accounts causing the lag. That "hypothetical hyperbole future" of yours. Unless 10 years timeline of this "Hypothetical Future" is not enough for you.
Followed sets of rules in TOS:
---> When running the game, they can monitor yes they are doing their job. They did monitor my lms. Bravo!
---> What bug are we talking about? The mobs spawning in a regular rate and getting killed? If that is a bug then everyone is abusing it.
---> You still trying to label me as someone who will program and create a bot/macro to farm mobs? Then that is you.

So to break it down all the 3 you mentioned it conforms with bot / macro farmers which is not me. And "unattended" gameplay which again not me since I did respond to a GM. The "HYPERBOLE" FUTURE of yours that somehow cause "SSG's resources" to lag is base on your fantasies, why would they make rules that is base on a data that is make-belief? Why are you still stuck with your "HYPERBOLE HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE"?

So we can cross all of that out. Next ToS/EULA.

Um, nope. Clearly, it is within SSG's "sole discretion" to determine that you hoovering in 6x, 12x, or 24x (or any number in between) in-game gold/loot to your one character obviously meets the their definition of "cheating of any type." And just for fun, they could also declare, again at their "sole discretion" that your doing so "imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure". . . and ban you for that as well. Perhaps you don't fully appreciate what "sole discretion" means?

And, I'll just wink at your ignoring the part about how you almost certainly are using a 3rd party application to simultaneously control all your toons. Which, by definition violates the admonition against "use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users."

As soon as you use any type of third party application to facilitate your alt accounts that, by definition, while being controlled simultaneously give you an advantage over others, you are already in violation. They have just been letting it slide.

Or, did you just conveniently miss that part?

--H

P.S. Do you seriously expect me to believe that you're not using that 3rd party software to which I've alluded?

[watevaplz]

Um, nope. Clearly, it is within SSG's "sole discretion" to determine that you hoovering in 6x, 12x, or 24x (or any number in between) in-game gold/loot to your one character obviously meets the their definition of "cheating of any type." And just for fun, they could also declare, again at their "sole discretion" that your doing so "imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure". . . and ban you for that as well. Perhaps you don't fully appreciate what "sole discretion" means?

And, I'll just wink at your ignoring the part about how you almost certainly are using a 3rd party application to simultaneously control all your toons. Which, by definition violates the admonition against "use any software, program, macro, or interface that modifies the game play in any way or that gives a user any kind of advantage over other end users."

As soon as you use any type of third party application to facilitate your alt accounts that, by definition, while being controlled simultaneously give you an advantage over others, you are already in violation. They have just been letting it slide.

Or, did you just conveniently miss that part?

--H

P.S. Do you seriously expect me to believe that you're not using that 3rd party software to which I've alluded?

That is your definition of cheating. You are not part of SSG/Turbine. Should not represent them in anyway close to it as well.

You are obviously stating that me setting my lms pet into aggressive/defensive mode is a 3rd party application. So that's you again.

Again Hyperbole. Next. Or did I miss anything?

P.S. Why not make a new account and get your LM then set your pet to aggressive/defensive mode and find out?

[Hurin]

And "unattended" gameplay which again not me since I did respond to a GM.

Ummmm. . .

Normally I go to sleep too when I farm deeds/mats and let the afk function kick me off the game...

Some players like myself will just use pet aggressive stance and just afk until auto log off.

. . . you were saying?

At least up until three days ago, you were in violation of the standard even you now concede is in effect. Though I'd point out that it's odd that you accept that as a policy since it's just as absent from the EULA as what you claim isn't policy.

At their sole discretion they can make boxer/farming a violation just as they've made afk farming a violation.

[watevaplz]

Ummmm. . .



. . . you were saying?

At least up until three days ago, you were in violation of the standard even you now concede is in effect. Though I'd point out that it's odd that you accept that as a policy since it's just as absent from the EULA as what you claim isn't policy.

At their sole discretion they can make boxer/farming a violation just as they've made afk farming a violation.

LOL but they didn't. The standards of going to sleep while my pet is in aggressive mode until log off? That is how most LM's deeds/traits how is this a violation? I'm sure if i'm pressing any skills due to bots and macros that you clearly said I used is a clear violation of the terms of service.

I'm pretty certain GM's are smart and have to wait to see if you are pressing skill buttons and other macros, until the afk so you can get caught in the act with that macro/bot. Then ask for a reply.

Yes I did talk to a GM, no they didn't ban me because "i'm cheating and hoarding" gold. Next.

[Hurin]

LOL but they didn't. The standards of going to sleep while my pet is in aggressive mode until log off? That is how most LM's deeds/traits how is this a violation? I'm sure if i'm pressing any skills due to bots and macros that you clearly said I used is a clear violation of the terms of service.

Yes I did talk to a GM, no they didn't ban me because "i'm cheating and hoarding" gold. Next.

And. . . had they sent you a /tell after you had gone to sleep (which you admit you routinely do). . . what would have happened then? Why do you play dumb so much?

That is your definition of cheating. You are not part of SSG/Turbine. Should not represent them in anyway close to it as well.

You are obviously stating that me setting my lms pet into aggressive/defensive mode is a 3rd party application. So that's you again.

Again Hyperbole. Next. Or did I miss anything?

So, again, you're not using that 3rd party software to facilitate simultaneous control of your LMs while traveling to your farming zone, or while there, or afterwards? Because, well, that 3rd party software making multi-client life tolerable for you is explicitly not allowed. I guess I can't blame you for avoiding the question, twice.

But you're right, I don't work for SSG. For various reasons, they're letting you and those engaging in this type of thing slide. They could just as easily decide not to do so. I and others think they should stop letting it slide.

You know what you're doing.

--H

[watevaplz]

So, again, you're not using that 3rd party software to facilitate simultaneous control of your LMs while traveling to your farming zone, or while there, or afterwards? Because, well, that 3rd party software making multi-client life tolerable for you is explicitly not allowed. I guess I can't blame you for avoiding the question, twice.

But you're right, I don't work for SSG. For various reasons, they're letting you and those engaging in this type of thing slide. They could just as easily decide not to do so. I and others think they should stop letting it slide.

You know what you're doing.

--H

/follow command or summons are 3rd party programs?

Thanks for clarifying it since a GM was there and talked to me about what I was doing and clearly find me of no fault whatsoever.

Yeah I'm playing the game, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

[Hurin]

Your edit:

I'm pretty certain GM's are smart and have to wait to see if you are pressing skill buttons and other macros, until the afk so you can get caught in the act with that macro/bot. Then ask for a reply.

Odd that you have gone from requesting that they do this in that other thread to conveniently assuming and asserting (indeed, you're even "pretty sure") that they do this when it suits your current situation in this thread.

Neat, that.

Next.

Oh wait, here it is!

/follow command or summons are 3rd party programs?

Thanks for clarifying it since a GM was there and talked to me about what I was doing and clearly find me of no fault whatsoever.

Yeah I'm playing the game, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

I'm going to note that you answered a question with a question and now for the third time have failed to state unambiguously that you do not use 3rd party software to facilitate the control of your multiple accounts/clients. What are you afraid of? They have winked and let the use of that software slide for years!

--H

[watevaplz]

Your edit:


Odd that you have gone from requesting that they do this in that other thread to conveniently assuming and asserting (indeed, you're even "pretty sure") that they do this when it suits your current situation in this thread.

Neat, that.

Next.

Oh wait, here it is!


I'm going to note that you answered a question with a question and now for the third time have failed to state unambiguously that you do not use 3rd party software to facilitate the control of your multiple accounts/clients. What are you afraid of? They have winked and let the use of that software slide for years!

--H

I'm pretty certain that is how they operate. It happened to me twice and when I'm afk to log off they don't do it. I can only assume that, so they can catch botters and macros hands in the cookie jar.

So I need to be direct with you:

/follow and summons are NOT 3rd party programs. There is that direct enough for you, do you follow me or are you that "obtuse".

[Hurin]

/follow and summons are NOT 3rd party programs. There is that direct enough for you, do you follow me or are you that "obtuse".

I didn't ask you whether /follow and summons are 3rd party programs. I asked you if you use 3rd party programs to facilitate more easily running and interacting with your multiple clients/accounts. That you won't answer a yes/no question with a yes or a no says volumes. And, indeed, says all that needs to be said about just how much you actually think the EULA supports your case.

To be painfully/pedantically clear, and perhaps illustrate where you're trying to give the impression that you're answering a question that you are in fact dodging: someone can be running said 3rd party program and still honestly state that they are using /follow and summon. They are not mutually exclusive.

So, I'll ask again: Do you use any 3rd party software alongside LotRO to facilitate the control of your multiple accounts/clients? That's a yes/no question. Please kindly answer with either a yes or no.

[watevaplz]

I didn't ask you whether /follow and summons are 3rd party programs. I asked you if you use 3rd party programs to facilitate more easily running and interacting with your multiple clients/accounts. That you won't answer a yes/no question with a yes or a no says volumes. And, indeed, says all that needs to be said about just how much you actually think the EULA supports your case.

So, I'll ask again: Do you use any 3rd party software alongside LotRO to facilitate the control of your multiple accounts/clients? That's a yes/no question. Please kindly answer with either a yes or no.

It hard to use alt-tab or mouse to click on minimized windows that I need 3rd party programs to open individually is that what you are saying? Do you know how to operate a PC?

No. But here you are stating every excuse you can think off to point that I'm using a 3rd party program. In fact if I browse to all the 3 consecutive comments you are pointing a finger on me stating that and limited to: a skill bot, a 3rd party program to get around faster and interaction with multiple windows. I already stated that I don't use 3rd party program prior especially the part where you quote me on. Is this a way to deviate that I'm a macro/botter now and this HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE/INFLATION caused by multiboxers discussion is no longer in the table? Wow

[Beaniemooch]

Again, I'm not rehashing my points again with you. Simply choosing to ignore my responses don't make them go away. Go back and reread the thread again. Combat multiboxing is an exploit because you are misusing the game for your own personal profit, and, to make matters worse, at the expense of others.

Except combat multiboxing has been going on since alpha with full knowledge and understanding by the devs both then and now, including how they do it. Turbine allowed it, even modified their launcher to accommodate it. SSG allows it.

You don't like it, fine. Don't do it. Calling it an exploit when it's been clarified time and time and time and time again that it's allowed now falls into the definition of insanity.

For the record, all new areas have lag that has nothing to do with boxers. Go back and read the "OMG there's lag" threads after every release of a new area since....time began.

[Hurin]

It hard to use alt-tab or mouse to click on minimized windows that I need 3rd party programs to open individually is that what you are saying? Do you know how to operate a PC?

No. But here you are stating every excuse you can think off to point that I'm using a 3rd party program. In fact if I browse to all the 3 consecutive comments you are pointing a finger on me stating that and limited to: a skill bot, a 3rd party program to get around faster and interaction with multiple windows. I already stated that I don't use 3rd party program prior especially the part where you quote me on. Is this a way to deviate that I'm a macro/botter now and this HYPOTHETICAL FUTURE/INFLATION caused by multiboxers discussion is no longer in the table? Wow

I merely ask if you are using a 3rd party application that is known to make client window management easier and broadcast keystrokes and mouse clicks to each client simultaneously. The vast majority of people who box use this program and there are threads on its forums stating that (then) Turbine staff have even apologized to people who have been banned for using it and reinstated them. They have decided to refrain from implementing their own explicit policy regarding "advantage" granted by a 3rd party application for their own reasons. They could just as easily decide to implement the policy instead.

So, while you still haven't answered 100% clearly, you seem to want us to believe that you are managing each client window without the aid of any software explicitly designed to make doing so easier. If that's truly the case (a big "if"), more power to you. I'd rather shoot myself. Rest assured, however, the vast majority of those boxing/farming use this software as is evident whenever you see all their characters perform an action simultaneously. It's easy to spot. And I've yet to see boxer/farmers in-game not exhibiting tell-tale signs of its use.

But, of course, as amply demonstrated, there is still enough language in the EULA that is open to SSG's "sole discretion" that they could decide overnight that even non-assisted boxing/multi-client for the purposes of farming gold/loot is a violation. And your only defense would be: "But you didn't care before!"

--H

[watevaplz]

I merely ask if you are using a 3rd party application that is known to make client window management easier and broadcast keystrokes and mouse clicks to each client simultaneously. The vast majority of people who box use this program and there are threads on its forums stating that (then) Turbine staff have even apologized to people who have been banned for using it and reinstated them. They have decided to refrain from implementing their own explicit policy regarding "advantage" granted by a 3rd party application for their own reasons. They could just as easily decide to implement the policy instead.

So, while you still haven't answered 100% clearly, you seem to want us to believe that you are managing each client window without the aid of any software explicitly designed to make doing so easier. If that's truly the case (a big "if"), more power to you. I'd rather shoot myself. Rest assured, however, the vast majority of those boxing/farming use this software as is evident whenever you see all their characters perform an action simultaneously. It's easy to spot. And I've yet to see boxer/farmers in-game not exhibiting tell-tale signs of its use.

But, of course, as amply demonstrated, there is still enough language in the EULA that is open to SSG's "sole discretion" that they could decide overnight that even non-assisted boxing/multi-client for the purposes of farming gold/loot is a violation. And your only defense would be: "But you didn't care before!"

--H

Do I need to quote all 3 of the remarks you said clearly pointing a finger and stating that I'm using a 3rd party program? Do you really want me to do all that work?

I CLEARLY answered no i don't use a 3rd party program, nor use a manager to alt-tab or click on windows individually, nor use skill bots, or a 3rd party program to move around faster. But you are still in THIS discussion. DO I NEED TO CAPITALIZE IT? SO YOU CAN READ OR DO YOU WANT ME TO ADD.... SO YOU CAN READ IT.... SLOW....LY

Of course in the EULA or TOS they can have sole discretion of the matter. If something REALLY breaks their game. FOR... THE.... 10th... YEAR.... THE GAME.... INCLUDING ALPHA.... ALLOWS MULTI.... BOXING.... THIS..... SOLE DISCRETION..... IS MORE LIKELY.... IN FAVOR..... OF.... MULTIBOXERS. THEY... EVEN.... LIKE SOMEONE MENTIONED.... ACCOMODATE... THEIR CLIENT.... TO RUN IT.... FOR MULTIBOXERS. O.....K?

The.......re.

[Hurin]

. . . and they could change their mind. Because the EULA clearly provides them the grounds to ban such activity today. Immediately.

That's what bothers you. Deep down, you know what you're doing. And you know they could legitimately ban it, or otherwise regulate it. 3rd party applications present or not.

There's a lot of people, even those doing it, who would say: "I can't believe they allowed it for so long!"

[watevaplz]

. . . and they could change their mind. Because the EULA clearly provides them the grounds to ban such activity today. Immediately.

That's what bothers you. Deep down, you know what you're doing. And you know they could legitimately ban it. 3rd party applications or not.

There's a lot of people, even those doing it, who would say: "I can't believe they allowed it for so long!"

"HYPOTHETICAL" sure!

Deep down you still in this topic. So what exactly is the 3rd party application i'm using. What bothers me is that you are clearly specifying that I use 3rd party programs which I don't because I know how to use the computer and the commands in LOTRO. HOORAY

Of course there are many players who want specific type of gameplay. Like Shooting games where some players despise others with sniper rifles... or just spamming grenade or spawn camping. The notion of "I can't believe they allowed specific type of gameplay" happens every single time. Awesome! Would they take out sniper rifles, grenades and the notion "spawn camping". Ye..... NOOOO.

[Hurin]

"HYPOTHETICAL" sure!

Deep down you still in this topic. So what exactly is the 3rd party application i'm using. What bothers me is that you are clearly specifying that I use 3rd party programs which I don't because I know how to use the computer and the commands in LOTRO. HOORAY

No, you finally answered the question and I accept your answer.

Of course there are many players who want specific type of gameplay. Like Shooting games where some players despise others with sniper rifles... or just spamming grenade or spawn camping. The notion of "I can't believe they allowed specific type of gameplay" happens every single time. Awesome! Would they take out sniper rifles, grenades and the notion "spawn camping". Ye..... NOOOO.

Acquiring vast sums of gold within an MMO while watching Netflix (or sleeping as you admittedly do) at a rate 6x, 12x, or 24x faster than intended or is standard for a single player, is not quite the same thing as using a lame or cheezy move in an insta-gratifcation shooter. But if it makes you feel better to think this way and compare apples to aircraft carriers, hey. . . do whatever helps you sleep at night (while your clients are farming, of course).

As I've said, you know what you're doing.