Hidden Nuggets we see all the time...

[Phibbus]

Just hit on this thread yesterday, and like many before me, I didn't get much done at work while going through it. Oh well, now that I'm already in the hole, I'll spend today contributing a few posts.

The lore characters encountered during chicken play have been covered already, but the one that really cracked me up was...

***SPOILER***

The Grey Squirrel on the island island in Nen Harn. When you consult him regarding the wolf problem in the Shire, he maniacally tells you (to paraphrase) that the wolves ain't no thang and that the grey squirrels will crush them (along with the rest of the world) as soon as they've dealt with the pesky red squirrels. I really wish I'd taken a pic of the text, but I was laughing too hard.

The little megalomaniac is referencing, most directly, an issue in early beta where players took exception to the presence of grey squirrels in-game because Tolkien, in fact, detested them and had said so in a letter. I've only been able to find second-hand reference on the web and can't locate original boards (perhaps Berephon can further elucidate); and if such a letter by Tolkien really exists, I've been unable to track it down, either. But...

Grey (I'll continue to defer to the British spelling, for now) squirrels are a species non-indigenous to the British Isles, having only been introduced there (probably from North America) in the late 19th Century. They also don't co-habitate very well with their red cousins, and will generally kill them on sight. The result is that, in the time since their introduction, they've all but decimated the native red-squirrel population in England.

We know of many cases where Tolkien, ever the English nationalist, directly avoided or gave special treatment to specifically non-English elements in his books, especially recent New-World introductions. Reference to "tomatoes" (again, North-American in origin) in The Hobbit was replaced by "pickles" in later editions. "Taters" have been covered frequently in this thread, being an English rustification of the New-World "potato." "Rabbits," which were probably unknown on the islands prior to the early medieval period and for which there is no Old English word are most-often referred to as "coneys." (Indeed, Tolkien went to great pains to dispel the common assumption that the word "Hobbit" was somehow associated with "rabbit," despite having himself several times compared Bilbo to one in the book.) Of course, he went to great lengths to explain the presence of "pipe-weed" (not "tobacco") in Middle-earth.

So, even if there is no letter making his preference explicit, we can assume that Tolkien knew about the great grey squirrel infestation and may have disliked them on principle.

The joke had some special personal associations for me for reason of a bit of family history. My great-grandfather was, for a time, the caretaker of a garden cemetery (now on the National Register of Historic Places) in eastern Pennsylvania. At the time, the cemetery and surrounding city had a healthy red squirrel population. Knowing nothing of their natural enmity and thinking to introduce some variety into the fauna, my great-grandfather arranged to have some gray squirrels from mid-state trapped and released on the cemetery grounds. Suffice it to say that no one in town has seen a red squirrel in quite some time.

Finally, there have been recent reports in Europe and the U.S. of mutant black squirrels, which are apparently quite the uber variety and may even give the grays a run for their money (for a recent story, see Black is the new grey for squirrels).

Hmmm.. Black squirrels. Case of real life imitating Mirkwood?

[Lohi]

Yes, black squirrels are very common here in silicon valley, and have been for 20 years.

As for red squirrels, I saw my first one in my 40's in Finland. I had never seen anything like it and had to immediately take a picture of the funny colored squirrel-like creature.

[Laire]

I guess everyone is too busy playing Book 13 to add some little hidden nuggets added to the book!

A couple spoilers for the landscape of Forochel, if you haven't explored it thoroughly...




Not so hidden, but certainly a nugget to those who have read Appendix A, is Arvedui's ship and his shade. He's pretty good-looking for a shade, to say the least.

Another nugget is all the names in Forochel. Finnish! That fits with the land, since Finland is one cold frozen wasteland- and don't take offense, that's my mum's word for the place. She's as pure-blooded of a Finn as you can get. Though Finland is admittedly flat... but anyways, I have found two family members that shared a name with an NPC in Forochel (Sini and Saija). Sadly no NPC is named after me.

Tolkien's favorite language was Finnish, so having a whole area using the Finnish language is really great.

[ViolentCulture]

Ronald Dwale in Dwaling. His quest line is just great. Love the fan service.

[juelz]

Recently found this while soloing in GT. Pardon if someone already found it. The thread is very..very long.

[Rillas]

Another nugget is all the names in Forochel. Finnish! That fits with the land, since Finland is one cold frozen wasteland- and don't take offense, that's my mum's word for the place. She's as pure-blooded of a Finn as you can get. Though Finland is admittedly flat... but anyways, I have found two family members that shared a name with an NPC in Forochel (Sini and Saija). Sadly no NPC is named after me.

Tolkien's favorite language was Finnish, so having a whole area using the Finnish language is really great.

I'm lovin' that, too, being half-Finn myself! Haven't spent a lot of time with the natives in Forochel, but I'm feeling that Finnish "sisu" from the NPC's there Very homey..

For the non-Finns reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu

[Lohi]

But where's the sauna?

[auximenes]

The steam-tent's just past the main entrance to Suri-Kyla, on your right. Look for the piles of warm stones outside.

[Laire]

I'm lovin' that, too, being half-Finn myself! Haven't spent a lot of time with the natives in Forochel, but I'm feeling that Finnish "sisu" from the NPC's there Very homey..

For the non-Finns reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu

Fellow half-Finn! What a rare breed we are. Rarer than pure Finns, I'd say ;D

[Furyus]

Wow... It's taken several days, but I've managed to finish reading this thread... Quite entertaining...

One question, though, as I don't recall anyone else mentioning this: In Bree, almost directly across from where Kenton Thistleway stands (29.9S 52.5W), there is a hammer lying on the ground. I came across it the other day and thought it was odd that there would be this hammer just lying on the ground like that...

I don't have a screenshot of it... Anyone else see it?

[Beleg]

There used to be some forges and smiths working there, but they were removed when Bree was re-organized quite a while ago (maybe back in beta, but I think it was after that). I *think* the hammer has always been there, but for some reason they chose not to remove it when they removed the forges (or maybe they just missed it).

[Iavas87]

I was running around the Shire recently and came upon The Yale-height. There, on the ground, I found some sort of metal collar with Cirth runes on it.



The image is rotated so that the text isn't upside-down, and the red line shows where the texture was mirrored (by the way - Berephon, is there any way to get the people who apply textures to understand that that the strange letters actually mean something and cannot be mirrored to save filesize? I'd love to see some of these fixed so that we can read the entire phrases.).

I'm no expert, but it seems to say something along the lines of "IRE MELO PALAN" before being cut off. The only word that I recognize is "PALAN", meaning "afar" or "abroad". Can anyone provide a more meaningful translation or an explanation for what the collar is?

EDIT: After searching online, I found the following lorebook article - http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Rune_Inscribed_Collar. Apparently, it is Laugfût's collar that is used in some quest that I've not yet done. I'm proud to say that I decoded the runes as much as possible, but I'd still like to know what it actually means. I wonder if there's a collection of complete (and thus only half-used) textures somewhere.

[Maeshani]

Let us assume that those Cirth Runes are the same runes used by the dwarves that were mentioned on Balin's Tomb.

IGE-MELOO PALA"N"

Last letter is in quotations as a guess since it's cut off.

But if it were me looking at it being strict about what should be on that helm... it's either Dwarvish Runes or Numenorian. But hey, what do I know lol

[jarishs]

Does anyone know what the runes say on the loading bar when you load up the game or zone?

[Zikro]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but there is a sneaky little sand castle on a tiny island on the beach in Lake Evendim. How it connects to something out of Lotro? I have no clue...

[Cleitanious]

Does anyone know what the runes say on the loading bar when you load up the game or zone?

They say "Loading... please wait..."

[Oruhlen]

Yeah, but our side is GOOD and they're on the side of EVIL. If a person is good, he lies, cheats, steals and kills for the greater good; if a person is bad even his good acts are done merely as a cynical manipulation. It's a sort of literary Calvinist doctrine.

This is the shallow psychology of Tolkien. His baddies are inherently bad and his goodies are inherently good - they are stereotypical archetypes. That's not really Tolkien's fault - LotR is based on ancient mythologies and sagas in which character psychology and motivations weren't examined too deeply. It's freeing in a way, in that it allows us to act in a world in which morality isn't really an issue - our morality is pre-defined for our characters. But on the other hand it removes that whole interesting moral question, which makes things a little less involving.

Actually, I read somewhere that Sauron really does believe what he's doing is good.

Let's say for a minute that Sauron gets the One Ring, slays Gandalf, destroys the Fellowship, and rocks Gondor something fierce. What, precisely, are his aims beyond this? Well, Sauron's grand scheme is to (and always has been) to revive Melkor... but beyond this, what's his general aim?

Sauron is an individual who sees beauty in order... and rather than trying to bring about order through justice or civility... he brings it through subjugation and domination. But, still, the goal is order -- a world order where he rules from on high, of course -- but order nonetheless.

I forget where exactly I read that, but it was a while ago, so perhaps I can be forgiven.

[Cleitanious]

Actually, I read somewhere that Sauron really does believe what he's doing is good.

Let's say for a minute that Sauron gets the One Ring, slays Gandalf, destroys the Fellowship, and rocks Gondor something fierce. What, precisely, are his aims beyond this? Well, Sauron's grand scheme is to (and always has been) to revive Melkor... but beyond this, what's his general aim?

Sauron is an individual who sees beauty in order... and rather than trying to bring about order through justice or civility... he brings it through subjugation and domination. But, still, the goal is order -- a world order where he rules from on high, of course -- but order nonetheless.

I forget where exactly I read that, but it was a while ago, so perhaps I can be forgiven.

Just ifnifshed both the Silmarillion and Unfinished tales and read no such thing, in all mentions Sauron is called evil, cruel, etc.

[Berephon]

Just ifnifshed both the Silmarillion and Unfinished tales and read no such thing, in all mentions Sauron is called evil, cruel, etc.

In the Letters or the Histories, Tolkien does discuss that Sauron had some tiny amount of good in him, and that he did try to go through the atonement process set down to him by the Valar during his captivity (but was in the end far too proud to bow to the Valar and gave in completely to evil.)

[O03]

Not sure if these have been mentioned

The Bird and Baby (in Michel Delving) is also a nickname for the Inn the Inklings would meet at

Agarwaen (As in Garth Agarwen) is a title Turin gives himself in Children of Hurin.

[Cleitanious]

In the Letters or the Histories, Tolkien does discuss that Sauron had some tiny amount of good in him, and that he did try to go through the atonement process set down to him by the Valar during his captivity (but was in the end far too proud to bow to the Valar and gave in completely to evil.)

Where can I find "The Letters or the Histories"?

[Arasilion]

He meant "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" and "The History of Middle-Earth" series. All should be fairly easy to find in a bookstore or online.

[Cleitanious]

He meant "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" and "The History of Middle-Earth" series. All should be fairly easy to find in a bookstore or online.

Hmm, didnt see those in the Library. Guess its kinda hard to find?

[MataTahu]

The Letters, I haven't personally searched for, so I can't help you there.

However, I do know that "The History of Middle-earth" is inherently a 12 volume set of books. These went out of print some time back, and only recently have some of them been reprinted in paperback. I haven't seen them at my library either.
It really sucks that no publisher is out there selling all 12 as a box set. I know I'd lap it up, and I'm sure there are others who would join me.

[Arasilion]

Well, I bought the first half of HoME in a box set at Barnes & Noble but haven't yet searched for the second half because I'm still reading through the first....I hope I won't have any problems finding it :-S