Dev Diary Feedback: Hunter Advancement Beyond Level 50!

[delphinius81]

Now instead of yelling at people for being in strength stance stealing aggro from the grd, I can yell at them for blowing all their power in super-strength stance to bust out extra dps. This will make pugging oh so much more enjoyable.

Not one of these setups strikes me as an power/threat management line. Great, I can lay traps in combat... Um, we already can. You just need the consumable. The increased dps is nice for solo builds, but there are already a ton of people that cannot manage their dps correctly. Now you will get people blowing all their power at the beginning of a fight, and being useless if anything new pops up. It also means that we could see an increase in boss battles that just require you to out dps the mob, ala Wisdan in BG, or the boss in the Gardens instance of Annum (both which have alternate strats, but people like to use the out-dps one). There is no reason to not have a trait line that focuses on power/threat management for group play.

Hopefully once it is revealed what traits specifically make up each of these lines, I won't be as bothered.

And seriously, why no mention about grouping all hunter porting skills into ONE PORT SKILL WITH A MENU. We already have nearly a full quickslot bar full of port skills. Now you are adding even more port skills, with forochel, likely several inside the mines, and most likely a lothlorien port as well. PUT THESE INTO ONE SKILL ALREADY. OR JUST SAY YOU WILL IN AN UPCOMING BOOK. Make the commitment on this so we shut up about it.


On a side note, I love the trait specs for the burglar.

[txnslyguy22]

Nice.....Cant wait to see it all in action

[Fyrakin]

I think that power drain is great enough (if not too high) right now, making a set that will use even more power is poinless.
A stance that drains focus? Don't think hunters will ever use it.

Of cource we'll have to try it to give precise feedback. But according to this article hunter play is going to be harder and slower solo than is now.

[weekes15]

Wow, sounds interesting. Looks like I may actually dust off the old hunter and experiment come Moria.

[Felamid]

I like the sound of the traits. The dps one about power is a no-brainer, u give up something to get something, have to wait and try it before i can judge. I am hoping, however, that the trap set of traits help to make the traps work. Either i have the worst luck or have some bad crafted traps, stuff that is 46-49 just waltz thru my triple-traps and other crafted traps, trip-line doesnt work. If they address this issue then trapping will be great in moria, since we hunters may not have the big range at times to engage. Lots of good stuff in the reading am looking forward to 1) release date, 2)packaging/order info from turbine with prices and of course my most wanted 3) specific info on how the legendaries work.

all in all a good read

[AgamemnonV1]

So who thought adding a sub-section to a class that has the biggest power issues in which the majority of the skills not only cost more power but there's even a skill that removes all of your power completely was a good idea? There isn't even a sub-section to focus on that either. And I seriously hope another five seconds for a basic skill isn't going to be called a legendary skill.

I can't say I'm impressed. I would like to be, but I'm not. An addition to insane damage would be fun, but I don't see how I'll be doing it as I already hurt with power, especially when the whole sub-section deals with increasing power cost. Let's just chop off the Hunter's legs and be done with it. Rune-Keeper, here I come.

[Anonymous32]

My only question is will we all be getting the capstone skills regardless? Or do you have to trait a certain way to even get acess to these skills?

[weekes15]

So who thought adding a sub-section to a class that has the biggest power issues in which the majority of the skills not only cost more power but there's even a skill that removes all of your power completely was a good idea? There isn't even a sub-section to focus on that either. And I seriously hope another five seconds for a basic skill isn't going to be called a legendary skill.

I can't say I'm impressed. I would like to be, but I'm not. An addition to insane damage would be fun, but I don't see how I'll be doing it as I already hurt with power, especially when the whole sub-section deals with increasing power cost. Let's just chop off the Hunter's legs and be done with it. Rune-Keeper, here I come.

Well in truth we don't know how this will pan out yet so I'll take the wait and see appraach. Although I probably wouldn't spec with the over the top attack build anyway. However if it were possible for you to somewhat hybrid build so that you could have access to the set bonus from the Huntsman set that does this...

It features reduced Focus loss for movement, decreased bow induction lengths, and a bonus that super-charges Strength of the Earth so that it has no induction, gives more power, and also boosts in-combat morale regeneration. And that’s not the only way it improves morale recovery in combat.

you could repower fairly quickly and be back in the fray...pretty sure it won't work that way so you'd likely be counting on your pocket battery charger...er Loremaster to help recharge you if you had to lay out massive spike damage. Regardless, I'm just happy that there are now options.

[Elcan]

Really now utillity utillity utillity!
Its an awsome thing. Finaly something to combat groups, and eliminate a solo target that may have not been able to do so in the past.

Like me the "Diminshing Returns" of haveing Agility maxed out far out ways moral builds by far.

So with this new onset of skells and class item upgrades i cant wait!

[Dom12]

Allow me to be Mr. Cynical for a moment...

THE BOWMASTER

...The trade-off for increased damage is that the power costs of skills also increase while in Strength Stance.
...There’s a trade-off, however: the power cost of all skills increases dramatically
...when the buff ends you lose all remaining power.
...The damage increase becomes even bigger along with the power costs.
Did anybody actually read that stuff, or did you just see "ull do big damige lol"?

The last thing the hunter class needs is more Power issues. We already have to jump through a bazillion hoops (including stacking the ever-useless Fate over stuff like Vitality or Morale) to keep up with our Power consumption. Unless our current Power costs are cut in half (and I mean that), we'll still be stuck with the exact same build we are now: AGI + PIC (and nothing else) and whatever the new equivalent of traited Stance: Endurance is.

The description for that trait path:

THE BOWMASTER
Apart from whatever else the Hunter is, he is always a damage-dealing master. The Bowmaster Trait Set takes the Hunter’s signature single-target damage capability, heightening his capability to quickly deal large bursts of damage to a foe when the need is great.

I don't think it's meant to be a full time thing, certainly not full time in a raid-type setting. If you're concerned about power issues, this path may not be for you. Keep in mind, the line you quoted about dramatically increasing power costs came from the TRAIT SET BONUSES section. So you can probably still pick some traits from this group without the power penalty. And the lose all remaining power bit was on the CAPSTONE SKILL: BURN HOT. It's one skill, and if they want people to use it, it's gotta be pretty impressive to counter the power=0 end-cost.

As for my predictions for the hunter class coming true:
And a global increase to our power costs. And a partridge in a pear tree.
Just wait...

Aw, come on Halvr.. finally we're getting some of that diversity you've been wanting & you just focus on the negatives...

THE HUNTSMEN
Trait Set Bonuses:
...a bonus that super-charges Strength of the Earth so that it has no induction, gives more power, and also boosts in-combat morale regeneration.

At least they're giving us some tools to work against the power drain.. A zero-induction SotE that actually gives a useful amount of power has to be worth something.

Also, how bout this?

MUST HAVE ITEMS
The Wind-rider and Whisper-draw Bow Chants will change to become books which are not consumed on use and whose effects can now be combined with the remaining, consumable bow chants.

Stock up on those chants, and you'll be able to get double the power reduction from the power reduction book+chant.

Maybe when this comes out, it still won't be enough to win people back, but I for one, am very excited about the changes they're talking about.

[Russano]

Allow me to be Mr. Cynical for a moment...

Did anybody actually read that stuff, or did you just see "ull do big damige lol"?

The last thing the hunter class needs is more Power issues. We already have to jump through a bazillion hoops (including stacking the ever-useless Fate over stuff like Vitality or Morale) to keep up with our Power consumption. Unless our current Power costs are cut in half (and I mean that), we'll still be stuck with the exact same build we are now: AGI + PIC (and nothing else) and whatever the new equivalent of traited Stance: Endurance is.

I'm afraid I agree with CWood's cynicism. I found it odd that the Hunter Dev Diary was the only one to mention the costs associated with the new Trait sets. Perhaps that's just a style preference of the writer, but it sure takes a lot of the luster off these changes.

Without any details, I don't like the idea. The notion that we must accept a penalty to get any boost is annoying: it increases the chance that significant re-traiting would be necessary if the type of activity you undertake varies. The damange boost from the Bowmaster set might be nice for soloing, but it sounds extremely counterproductive while in a long fellowship quest if it requires Stance: Strength AND further increases our already egregious Power costs. And while it's nice that a Huntsman might get some use out of Strength of the Earth now, it's a little irksome that it will continue to be worthless for the rest of us.

In a addition, I'm not pleased by the skill changes in the 50+ game. I already consider Merciful Shot a borderline useless skill due to its massive Focus cost; the fact that it now has a cookie against Moria content is a very mixed blessing. One the one hand, it does help justify its use. On the other hand, it's a clumsy fix and I'd prefer if the skill itself were improved against all content instead. The extra arrow from Swift Bow is fine, but remarkably hard to get excited by.

As far as the new travel skills go, there doesn't seem to be much news. It sounds like we have to quest and/or rep grind for the Forochel one, and that there will be two others. Other than the (small, IMHO) number of destinations, there isn't much we couldn't already have guessed there. More importantly, nothing was said about adding a Menu to help clean up our quickbars. That would have been a truly beneficial change.

Finally, the legendary items summary was suprisingly free of actual information. We all knew legendary bows would exist, but I was hoping for some details. Instead, I learned more about how Legendary items would function from one of Massively's generic screenshots than I did from the dev diary. I was also curious to see if what we were going to get for the new class item slot, but nothing was said about that. Are the newly remade Wind-rider and Whisper-draw books going to fit into that slot?

Overall, I was disappointed by the diary. It didn't really give any details, and the generalities it offered were either bland or outright worrying. Definately not what I was hoping for.

-R

[Dom12]

...The damange boost from the Bowmaster set might be nice for soloing, but it sounds extremely counterproductive while in a long fellowship quest if it requires Stance: Strength AND further increases our already egregious Power costs.

We have several traits now that don't make sense in a long fellowship quest. Why is it such a surprise/issue that the new traits would also be that way? We currently have traits that are tied to S:Precision and S:Endurance. How much use do you get out of Stealthy Shot when you're solo? Without the line bonus, it would be 100% useless. I don't see the problem with having different traits for different situations. Especially when it's tied to a stance. If you didn't get a chance to retrait before that long fellowship quest, just don't use S:Strength and the trait path penalties go away.

[treato]

My main is a Champ and only have a lvl 16 Hunter, but I have to say, that of the 3 dev diaries, comparing the 3 classes, the Hunter is benefitting the most. Lots of changes and Hunters will be extremely valuable for fellowships when Moria launches.

[AgamemnonV1]

Well in truth we don't know how this will pan out yet so I'll take the wait and see appraach. Although I probably wouldn't spec with the over the top attack build anyway. However if it were possible for you to somewhat hybrid build so that you could have access to the set bonus from the Huntsman set that does this...



you could repower fairly quickly and be back in the fray...pretty sure it won't work that way so you'd likely be counting on your pocket battery charger...er Loremaster to help recharge you if you had to lay out massive spike damage. Regardless, I'm just happy that there are now options.

The fact that I actually have to go the way of having all my skills cost more power just to get that is rediculous alone. They could've made an approach that deals with the power issues, but that's the thing, they didn't.

We have several traits now that don't make sense in a long fellowship quest. Why is it such a surprise/issue that the new traits would also be that way?

Gee, I don't know, maybe because the end game has us in fellowships/raids?

[Dom12]

Gee, I don't know, maybe because the end game has us in fellowships/raids?

So you expected every trait to be geared toward fellowship/raid play now? And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the whole game (not just end) have us in fellowships? You can play solo at end-game or at any other point, or you can be in a fellowship thruout, or you can do some of both. Do you think every level 50 spends all/most of their time raiding? Cause it ain't the case. There are currently traits that fit better for solo and others that are better for full-fellowship/raid play. After the update, there will be traits that fit better for solo and others that are better for full-fellowship/raid play. There's a lot to choose from and you only get 7 slots to fill, so what's the problem?

[Russano]

We have several traits now that don't make sense in a long fellowship quest. Why is it such a surprise/issue that the new traits would also be that way? We currently have traits that are tied to S:Precision and S:Endurance. How much use do you get out of Stealthy Shot when you're solo? Without the line bonus, it would be 100% useless. I don't see the problem with having different traits for different situations. Especially when it's tied to a stance. If you didn't get a chance to retrait before that long fellowship quest, just don't use S:Strength and the trait path penalties go away.

It's a question of degree, mostly.

The traits we have now are single traits that buff some aspect of our Hunter-ness. The new sets will require multiple traits to get their buffs, which leaves less room for other traits to pick up the slack when we do something other than what the buff in question calls for. If I slot Gracefull draw, I need only sacrifice that one slot when I opperate in something other than Stance: Endurance. Not so if I go down one of the Trait set paths.

The trait sets then further up the ante by imposing penalties for the benefits they provide. The trapper set seems to reduce your damage at all times. Bowmaster causes S:S to drain even more power. That indicates to me that the sets are not going to be very forgiving of playing them "out of spec." It's unclear what penalty Huntsman might have, so perhaps it avoids this problem.

Again, the actual numbers matter, but what was described seems much more narrow and marginal a bonus than I was expecting.

-R

[CWood]

The description for that trait path:
I don't think it's meant to be a full time thing, certainly not full time in a raid-type setting. If you're concerned about power issues, this path may not be for you. Keep in mind, the line you quoted about dramatically increasing power costs came from the TRAIT SET BONUSES section. So you can probably still pick some traits from this group without the power penalty. And the lose all remaining power bit was on the CAPSTONE SKILL: BURN HOT. It's one skill, and if they want people to use it, it's gotta be pretty impressive to counter the power=0 end-cost.

Here's the thing; Stance: Strength is already a 30-second ticket to being out of Power (maybe 45 if you're totally pimped and up to your eyeballs in support classes). It's already unusable unless you're kiting a Big Bad or can duck out of combat for 30 seconds to refuel.

Without a major change in how our whole cost/Power dynamics work (and I don't mean a few Band-Aid skills like SotE), any amount of increased Power cost will negate anything it's attached to.

The day I can function without +6 PIC, 300+ Fate, -30% Power costs, and a captain/minstrel/loremaster entourage is the day I'll stop being so bitter about our Power costs.

Aw, come on Halvr.. finally we're getting some of that diversity you've been wanting & you just focus on the negatives...

/petulant_on

Hey, now! I prefaced it with a big disclaimer, so everyone had fair warning. The hunter board guys all know how I feel about the class, anyways, so nobody should be at all surprised.

/petulant_off

My major concern is that all that diversity will be just as effective and practical as the diversity we have now (we do have quite a lot; just none of it works). Power costs will negate the damage path, B/E/(P?), resists, and induction-dependent skills will negate the CC path*, and the sheer stupidity of it will negate the "mobility" path (having to stand still to shoot is the problem with our mobility; we're already perfectly capable of moving between shots). What will we be left with? A roadie with above average single-target damage.

*- A note on this; the CC path says it'll decrease the resist rate. That's great. What's our "new and improved" success rate going to be? 50% after B/E/P? 70%? If it's not unavoidable and 90% effective (like every other form of CC in the game), it's pretty much going to be a joke, even before you factor in the long induction times I'm sure it'll all have.

For what it's worth, I really do hope I'm wrong. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Skypp]

I like the reduction of materials needed to provide what should be innate Hunter abilities, the bow chants how they are on live servers has always been unacceptable in my opinion. So I am looking forward to the changes of this.

I've never been a damage maniac, but still some of the new stuff written there has me excited. Burn Hot reminds me alot of EQ wizard's Mana Burn, and for obvious reasons. But why do I like Burn hot? Well I have always built my hunter for endurance, sacrificing some of my fast and high damage. I can't do a ton of burst damage. So with Burn Hot, I can turn my endurance build into a burst of great damage.

Now, as for what I would like to see... Give us our traps. Like the bow chants being set to a book or whatever, if you want us to seriously be taken as a crowd controller(as that trait set up suggests) then give us our traps. I know it is rare for a hunter to take weapon crafting, most are Explorer or Yeoman, with a few armorsmiths, but rare is it that we're weaponsmiths to be able to make a steady supply of them.

[Dom12]

It's a question of degree, mostly.

The traits we have now are single traits that buff some aspect of our Hunter-ness. The new sets will require multiple traits to get their buffs, which leaves less room for other traits to pick up the slack when we do something other than what the buff in question calls for. If I slot Gracefull draw, I need only sacrifice that one slot when I opperate in something other than Stance: Endurance. Not so if I go down one of the Trait set paths.

The trait sets then further up the ante by imposing penalties for the benefits they provide. The trapper set seems to reduce your damage at all times. Bowmaster causes S:S to drain even more power. That indicates to me that the sets are not going to be very forgiving of playing them "out of spec." It's unclear what penalty Huntsman might have, so perhaps it avoids this problem.

Again, the actual numbers matter, but what was described seems much more narrow and marginal a bonus than I was expecting.

-R

I can see where you're coming from. However, I would expect the set bonuses to be more significant as you slot more traits from a given path like most of the armour sets are. With 2, you get a little bonus, 3 a bit more etc. So I'm guessing you could do something like 2 from bowmaster, 2 from trapper & 3 from huntsman or something like that and get a decently rounded build without much in the way of penalties. Keep in mind, the set bonuses are basically taking the place of the line bonuses the traits used to have. The traits themselves are still valuable on their own. I think having the option of going hardcore damage at the cost of power, or heavy cc at the cost of damage, or being a crazy kiter, or just being well-rounded with no extreme focus is pretty cool.

Hey, now! I prefaced it with a big disclaimer, so everyone had fair warning. The hunter board guys* all know how I feel about the class, anyways, so nobody should be at all surprised.

OK, true, you gave the disclaimer, and I do know how you feel about the class, still... while the diary didn't give much in the way of specifics, I thought you'd throw an /Removes Mr. Cynical hat comment at the end with a hey, that sounds cool or a hmm, this part sound like they may finally be on the right track.

And I threw a at the end of calling out your negativity.. I considder that the /just giving you trouble for troubles sake emote.

* It does feel a little weird discussing the hunter class out here in the open....

[WhifOfDespair]

The fact that I actually have to go the way of having all my skills cost more power just to get that is rediculous alone. They could've made an approach that deals with the power issues, but that's the thing, they didn't.


Gee, I don't know, maybe because the end game has us in fellowships/raids?

Hmm... methinks you and I have different playstyles. I spend about 10-15% of my playtime in groups, max. The rest is solo. I like playing in groups, but is not the be-all end-all for me. I appreciate that the new trait sets seem to include things that I'll find useful when solo'ing or partnering with my best friend. I'm hoping that these will open up new challenges that currently are out of reach for a solo hunter (yet are doable by other classes).

I appreciate that you may spend more of your time doing hard core group instances or raids. I enjoy those a lot when I do them too. I think that some of these new Hunter class features will benefit that too.

We don't know the details of the changes yet so its too soon to jump to a full conclusion The key factors for evaluating the 'Bowmaster' features are going to be what % DPS boost vs what % power cost increases. If the DPS boost is 20% but the power cost increase is 90% then it would clearly suck. What if it was the reverse? Would you like that? The truth is probably going to be somewhere in the middle.

Aside - the Swift Bow change is basically a 50% damage boost for that skill. That's pretty nice if it doesn't come with a power or induction cost increase.

[stranger7]

I dont get it... the burg and LM class get some nice buffs at no extra cost, but the hunters - who already have a hard time with power consumption - get hit on their power in order to buff their main role. WHY?????????? So that after we burn down a couple of mobs we can stand around for the rest of the fight picking our noses? This is going to really make us useful in raids.....

[Faithknight]

Dont forget hunters can also drop a campfire which is like a free blueberry pie for the whole raid. I dont think hunters have it as hard as people sometimes whine about it.

[Liarfish]

Complaining about the hunter class. Love the originality!

My guess is that the increased damage is to make up for the lack of healing against things like elites. It's certainly meant for solo hunters and has applications in the moors. How many hunters can go 1 vs 1 on a vet creep? If the damage boost is dramatic enough then it might make solo hunting in PVMP a worthwhile option.

[Big_H]

Dont forget hunters can also drop a campfire which is like a free blueberry pie for the whole raid. I dont think hunters have it as hard as people sometimes whine about it.

Out of combat, for out of combat regen only. I think Stranger7 was referring to in combat.

[CWood]

I thought you'd throw an /Removes Mr. Cynical hat comment at the end with a hey, that sounds cool or a hmm, this part sound like they may finally be on the right track.

And I threw a at the end of calling out your negativity.. I considder that the /just giving you trouble for troubles sake emote.

* It does feel a little weird discussing the hunter class out here in the open....

1) I'll remove the hat when I'm proven wrong. Unlike a lot of cynical [illegitimate children], I will admit I was wrong should the necessity arise.

2) Don't worry; I caught it. Hence the /petulant "toggles" before and after that bit.

3) Yes, it does. I'm surprised they let us gimps out of the basement to talk to the general populace.

Dont forget hunters can also drop a campfire which is like a free blueberry pie for the whole raid. I dont think hunters have it as hard as people sometimes whine about it.

Beyond my initial "play one first and then open your gob" reaction (which I really do try to avoid), I'll say this:

If Bright Campfire increased in-combat regens (even if the skill itself remained out-of-combat only) it'd be worth it. As it is the regens scale very poorly and are only a benefit when they don't matter. All it does is expedite everyone else's play experience (much like the hunter class in general).