XP Reducer

[sickboy65]

I'm ambivalent about the toggle myself, but isnt this the most puerile argument ever? I'm sure there are a lot of features in a lot of other games that lots of players in this game would like. Maybe they should all leave? Or maybe, because they like this game and the lore despite the missing feature, they ask for it to be included in this game?

It wasn't my intention to say that people wanting this feature should leave for another game. I was trying to point out that they haven't. Obviously, there are things about this game that keep people playing even though there isn't an XP toggle. Doesn't it stand to reason then, that whatever it is that is keeping them playing without the XP toggle they want, is at least as, if not more important than the toggle itself? And, isn't this what the developers have been saying? They haven't incorporated an XP toggle because they are working on more important things.

[Lohi]

The quest system doesn't allow this. Please identify one 'really important' part of the content that you're not directed to by a prominent quest giver?

A big problem for a new player is in knowing what is an important quest and what isn't. There are a lot of quest chains, and quests with prerequisites. If you skip the one that wants you to kill some goblins you might end up skipping a long and interesting quest chain. If you come back on an alt and think "goblins, didn't I do that one already?" you'll skip it again.

Ie, Tomb of Elendil is a very fun instance, but it's at the end of a very long quest chain that starts in a completely different zone.

It would be nice if the quests had some sign that they were part of a quest chain or are prerequisites for others, or if they're just standalone quests. Even with 7 character slots filled, I can't remember which is which and often I'm stuck trying to figure out why someone in my fellowship is ineligible for a quest that everyone else has.

[Lohi]

I always thought one of the major points of playing games was to be able to do things you can't do in the real world....

I'm grinding away at Office Worker Online. About to hit another level soon. Or at least I hope so, there are rumors of nerfs coming down the pipeline. Oops, gotta go, boss aggro.

[Lohi]

Also, all this talk of rolling back the XP curve. While I liked the original curve better, going back would be a disaster unless they let everyone keep the levels they've already earned.

True.

But we could try to reduce the number of Welcome Back Weekend experience boosts; sure have welcome back weekends, but maybe give the boost to only those returning. Also the XP buff from Ettenmoors could be removed, as I'd much rather have Ettenmoors buffs that reduced armor wear, increased run speed slightly, etc.

[jeffnkim]

As much as I this might be a great idea and has been implemented nicely into other games, it can not and should not be implemented into Lotro for one huge reason:

It is against the Lore.

One of the biggest themes of Lotr centers on the idea that "you can never go home again." In other words, once you go out into the world you grow as a person. You become wiser, stronger, more confident, more determined, and more experienced. As such there is no possible way Frodo could ever stay a lvl 10 hobbit no matter how much he would have liked.

The more quests you do and more monsters you kill REQUIRES that you gain experience and level up. You can never go home again.



But more seriously, this probably is a good idea, but unless the "programming hours needed" divided by the "number of players who want this" equals a "good idea for Turbine to invest" in, I would rather, and I know you truly to do too, that Turbine spend their resources building this incredible world that we want to play in and explore. I do not want to finally reach Gondor when my great-grandchildren are old enough to play this game.

That said, here are some suggestions:
1) Only do quests. Do not Kill mobs. If you have to kill a Mob, enter into a Raid status so that you do not get any XP. That way you will not level as much.
2) Enjoy each quest for the quest itself. There are so many more fun challenges in this game that you do not need every quest to be at your level. If they are a little too easy for you find a way to make them more challenging or enjoy being the hero that you are.

Lastly, with each alt I level I notice the game getting easier. Is it really getting easier or am I growing as a Lotro player and getting better? Ah to play Lotro like the first time.

Like I said, we can never go home again.

[Khafar]

It is against the Lore.

No, it's a game mechanic, pure and simple, like levels or IXP or "radar" or fast travel. Arguing against those things based on "lore" is pointless - they exist simply to improve the enjoyability of the game. Sam didn't get IXP for Sting when he drove off Shelob. Aragorn didn't find resources he needed to make a healing salve by turning on his tracker and following the little blue arrow at the edge of his radar.

Turning XP on/off is a game mechanic, nothing more, and I don't have any objection to adding it for the people who want it. My objection is basically to people making silly claims about how important it is to the game as a whole. It's a minor feature, and most players considering this game aren't going to have a clue whether LOTRO has it or not. In fact, even if LOTRO adds it, I'll be surprised if most people know it exists at all 6 months after it does.

Khafar

[DunasConnor]

It's a minor feature, and most players considering this game aren't going to have a clue whether LOTRO has it or not. In fact, even if LOTRO adds it, I'll be surprised if most people know it exists at all 6 months after it does.

Khafar

Actually, the first time they added one of the bonus weekends, I went looking for the command and was very surprised by it missing. Not quite as surprised as I was when they just kept adding more and more exp weekends.

I like floon, but his response in this thread about stripping down was just insulting. It's was no better than some of the other games threads when people were asking for this to be implemented and were taunted with 'Alt-F4 turns off exp'.

The whole CS as an issue is a ridiculous explanation also. If you turn the bar red, and report back 'You have gained no exp. You have exp turned off' instead of the exp report we normally get, then I doubt there's anyone stupid enough to miss it, let alone have the audacity to file a CS report to get the lost exp back. I don't think much of most humans in general, but I've gotta say, this is one thing I would not expect from the dumbest of the lot. That's saying a lot.

Just my opinion, of course.

[DrWookie]

Actually, the first time they added one of the bonus weekends, I went looking for the command and was very surprised by it missing. Not quite as surprised as I was when they just kept adding more and more exp weekends.

I like floon, but his response in this thread about stripping down was just insulting. It's was no better than some of the other games threads when people were asking for this to be implemented and were taunted with 'Alt-F4 turns off exp'.

The whole CS as an issue is a ridiculous explanation also. If you turn the bar red, and report back 'You have gained no exp. You have exp turned off' instead of the exp report we normally get, then I doubt there's anyone stupid enough to miss it, let alone have the audacity to file a CS report to get the lost exp back. I don't think much of most humans in general, but I've gotta say, this is one thing I would not expect from the dumbest of the lot. That's saying a lot.

Just my opinion, of course.

I kind of agree about Floon's comment...

I wasn't going to say anything, but it was kind of insulting and suggested either A. He was making fun of those who wanted the feature or B. Really still doesn't understand why people want it. I'm hoping it was the latter. If he really thought his suggestion was an adequate solution to the complaints listed in this thread, that is kind of sad coming from a developer and suggests a complete lack of understanding.

[Beldacar]

SNIP

One of the biggest themes of Lotr centers on the idea that "you can never go home again." In other words, once you go out into the world you grow as a person. You become wiser, stronger, more confident, more determined, and more experienced. As such there is no possible way Frodo could ever stay a lvl 10 hobbit no matter how much he would have liked.

And yet he pretty much did. As has been argued elsewhere, Frodo isn't really a character, he's just an escort target (While Merry and Pippin have the "Ally of Frodo" tag under their names, even if you can't see it) ;^)

SNIP

But more seriously, this probably is a good idea, but unless the "programming hours needed" divided by the "number of players who want this" equals a "good idea for Turbine to invest" in, I would rather, and I know you truly to do too, that Turbine spend their resources building this incredible world that we want to play in and explore. I do not want to finally reach Gondor when my great-grandchildren are old enough to play this game.

I'm fine with Turbine allocating their resources in whatever way advances the game. That doesn't preclude me from trying to influence their decision by requesting a feature that I think would benefit both myself and a lot of like-minded players. LotRO is a game that has historically appealed to Explorer and Social players; the changes that started with Moria appear to be more geared toward Achiever types. That's fine, the more players the game attracts, the better. But it's worth remembering that keeping current customers happy is generally far cheaper than attracting new ones.

That said, here are some suggestions:
1) Only do quests. Do not Kill mobs. If you have to kill a Mob, enter into a Raid status so that you do not get any XP. That way you will not level as much.
2) Enjoy each quest for the quest itself. There are so many more fun challenges in this game that you do not need every quest to be at your level. If they are a little too easy for you find a way to make them more challenging or enjoy being the hero that you are.

Not a big fan of quests, but the idea of turning off XP by entering Raid status had never occurred to me. Not surprising, given that I've never been in a raid in this game (and probably never will be).

What I've been doing is A. dragging a character from my second account around, even when I'm not specifically trying to powerlevel them, just to soak up some of the excess XP and B. avoiding any quests beyond the minimum necessary to achieve deeds, reputation, or "can't miss" gear. I'll definitely give the "turn your fellowship into a raid" technique a try and see how it goes. That sounds like it may well accomplish my goal. Thank you for the (not at all obvious) suggestion.

Lastly, with each alt I level I notice the game getting easier. Is it really getting easier or am I growing as a Lotro player and getting better? Ah to play Lotro like the first time.

Like I said, we can never go home again.

There is some of that, but there's also been a very definite trend in the industry to reduce difficulty, perhaps on the misguided notion that "casual" players want things to be "easy." Frankly, I appreciate all the extra solo content (and am looking forward to the day when Turbine stops capping every "solo" quest chain with a big "fellowship" quest at the end), but I don't want it to be easy. Heck, I do things like attacking orange elites to try to increase my personal challenge level (no, I don't usually succeed at killing orange elites, but it's often a closer run thing than even I expect).

[Beldacar]

I kind of agree about Floon's comment...

I wasn't going to say anything, but it was kind of insulting and suggested either A. He was making fun of those who wanted the feature or B. Really still doesn't understand why people want it. I'm hoping it was the latter. If he really thought his suggestion was an adequate solution to the complaints listed in this thread, that is kind of sad coming from a developer and suggests a complete lack of understanding.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that 1. he didn't mean it as a serious suggestion, just showing that you can always try to increase your own challenge level and 2. that he just doesn't understand why players want the feature.

I don't mind snarky comments from devs. It's much better than the total silence you get from, say, Funcom. (In their defense, a couple of their devs did post occasionally on the Test Server forum. But on the Live Server forums, silence was the order of the day.)

[Tiempko]

That said, here are some suggestions:
1) Only do quests. Do not Kill mobs. If you have to kill a Mob, enter into a Raid status so that you do not get any XP. That way you will not level as much.

Well, many quests and a lot of slayer deeds require killing mobs. And, if you play for challenge.

As for entering RAID mode, in order to not get any XP, you have to be in a raid with a total of at least 7 players. If you are in a raid with 6 players or fewer total, you still get XP.

(Some of us who value playing without XP have used the RAID option from time to time, but it is difficult to get 7 players together.)

[floon]

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that 1. he didn't mean it as a serious suggestion, just showing that you can always try to increase your own challenge level and 2. that he just doesn't understand why players want the feature.

I wasn't being very serious. And yes, in part because I don't regard this as a serious feature suggestion. It has so many flaws, both from your perspective and ours.

From our perspective: it will be a call driver for CS, we know that. No matter how many warnings you put on something, people still forget, or don't notice, or they knew it was on but meant to turn it off before turning this one quest in, or whatever. Or they'll clean out all the available white and yellow and orange quests at their stalled level, decide they want to start advancing again, and discover that there's no XP to be earned apart from the mother of all mob grinds to get moving again. You're using "everyone plays rationally" logic in promoting what a boon for everyone this would be; we know (from hard, bitter experience) that depending on that doesn't work out.

So many content arcs are absolutely designed around the idea that the characters participating are advancing in level through the arc: many quest lines just won't be able to be finished.

We don't have other game systems that really imply (if not require) something like this. Other games that have this do. It's not because this is a hugely popular feature, intrinsic to the nature of MMOs, that causes other games implement this. It's because they have game systems that will not see much use unless they have it.

From your perspective: it doesn't go backwards, and you'll really want it to, if you're serious about all the reasons for wanting the system. If we introduce lower level content (than what you stalled yourself at) in a book update (like we've been doing for a while now), this system doesn't help you. If another friend of yours who you want to match up with joins the game, this doesn't help you. If you're playing good Samaritan for random folks, this helps you a tiny sliver of the time (you have to be reasonably matched up to be a decent help-meet).

Are the problems with shutting off XP fixable? Sure, but then it's not nearly as "free" a feature: addressing the issues means expanding it with more code and UIs and design. It becomes a full-fledged feature. That's when it gets into the, "Why are we spending so much time putting lipstick on this pig?" area, when what we really should have done is, for a little more effort, a real mentoring system.

If you really want to address the litany of reasons espoused, a mentoring system does it. It handles all the social reasons for wanting this. The challenge level issue for solo players is not answered by this, and that's where I would say go fight on-level stuff or roll an alt. Alts are fun. Or pull out your butterknife and have at it.

[auximenes]

what we really should have done is, for a little more effort, a real mentoring system

So, we're getting a mentoring system with Mirkwood?

I know you don't feel it's worth it floon, but some of the other Devs do, and obviously there is a long-standing request for some way of delaying or stopping XP gain by a segment of the player-base, although it is small. I just hope that a mentoring system is on the drawing board, even if it's off to the side and it takes a while to get to it.

Final thought before bed: This is an MMO*RPG*, and a mentoring system would enhance role-play possibilites for those that want to live in Tolkien's world via LotRO.

[Reximus]

(Some of us who value playing without XP have used the RAID option from time to time, but it is difficult to get 7 players together.)

I find this interesting as it partly speaks to how popular such an option would be if over the total of a server its hard to find even 7 players to create a raid to prevent XP.

[floon]

So, we're getting a mentoring system with Mirkwood?

No.

I know you don't feel it's worth it floon, but some of the other Devs do, ... a mentoring system would enhance role-play possibilites for those that to live in Tolkien's world via LotRO.

I said earlier that I think a mentoring system is a great idea. I think an XP halting system is a lousy idea.

[auximenes]

No.

I was just joking. /poke

[floon]

I was just joking. /poke

No! For reals?

[Forjo]

A set of destiny perks that reduces XP gain for a set periods of time or for selectable amounts addresses most if not all of the supposed issues raised.

But solutions don't come to people who aren't looking for them.

-Forjo

[Beldacar]

I wasn't being very serious. And yes, in part because I don't regard this as a serious feature suggestion. It has so many flaws, both from your perspective and ours.

From our perspective: it will be a call driver for CS, we know that. No matter how many warnings you put on something, people still forget, or don't notice, or they knew it was on but meant to turn it off before turning this one quest in, or whatever. Or they'll clean out all the available white and yellow and orange quests at their stalled level, decide they want to start advancing again, and discover that there's no XP to be earned apart from the mother of all mob grinds to get moving again. You're using "everyone plays rationally" logic in promoting what a boon for everyone this would be; we know (from hard, bitter experience) that depending on that doesn't work out.

So many content arcs are absolutely designed around the idea that the characters participating are advancing in level through the arc: many quest lines just won't be able to be finished.

We don't have other game systems that really imply (if not require) something like this. Other games that have this do. It's not because this is a hugely popular feature, intrinsic to the nature of MMOs, that causes other games implement this. It's because they have game systems that will not see much use unless they have it.

From your perspective: it doesn't go backwards, and you'll really want it to, if you're serious about all the reasons for wanting the system. If we introduce lower level content (than what you stalled yourself at) in a book update (like we've been doing for a while now), this system doesn't help you. If another friend of yours who you want to match up with joins the game, this doesn't help you. If you're playing good Samaritan for random folks, this helps you a tiny sliver of the time (you have to be reasonably matched up to be a decent help-meet).

Are the problems with shutting off XP fixable? Sure, but then it's not nearly as "free" a feature: addressing the issues means expanding it with more code and UIs and design. It becomes a full-fledged feature. That's when it gets into the, "Why are we spending so much time putting lipstick on this pig?" area, when what we really should have done is, for a little more effort, a real mentoring system.

If you really want to address the litany of reasons espoused, a mentoring system does it. It handles all the social reasons for wanting this. The challenge level issue for solo players is not answered by this, and that's where I would say go fight on-level stuff or roll an alt. Alts are fun. Or pull out your butterknife and have at it.

A mentoring system would be fine. Be smart and plan from the beginning to introduce some form of self-mentoring like EQ2 just introduced with Live Update 53. That would satisfy the social aspects =and= make the soloers happy. I still think a mentoring system is more work than the problem requires and nowhere near as necessary in LotRO as it is in EQ2, but I certainly wouldn't complain about it being added.

Just remember, if you plan it properly you can allow people to self-mentor and make everyone who cares about this feature happy at the same time ;^)

P.S.: "Roll an alt" doesn't work for me. I already have seven characters on my primary account and six on my secondary account. Yes, I can add two more slots to each account by buying the Adventurer's Pack, but frankly I've already got pretty much every race / class combination I have any interest in. In other words, I already make =extensive= use of alts to make the game more interesting / challenging.

[Beldacar]

Second answer, taking each point individually.

I wasn't being very serious. And yes, in part because I don't regard this as a serious feature suggestion. It has so many flaws, both from your perspective and ours.

From our perspective: it will be a call driver for CS, we know that. No matter how many warnings you put on something, people still forget, or don't notice, or they knew it was on but meant to turn it off before turning this one quest in, or whatever. Or they'll clean out all the available white and yellow and orange quests at their stalled level, decide they want to start advancing again, and discover that there's no XP to be earned apart from the mother of all mob grinds to get moving again. You're using "everyone plays rationally" logic in promoting what a boon for everyone this would be; we know (from hard, bitter experience) that depending on that doesn't work out.

A. I still think you're overestimating the number of CS calls.

B. If CS can tell me "sorry, we can't replace that stack of Ruby Shards you lost due to the rollback that occurred after our servers crashed" and close the ticket, they can just as easily tell someone "sorry, we can't replace that XP you lost when you forgot to re-enable experience gain" and close the ticket.

C. Even if someone managed to do all the orange quests and found themselves without any viable quests, you drastically overestimate how many mobs they'd have to kill to gain a level (or two) and open up some new quests. Levelling in this game is not difficult.

So many content arcs are absolutely designed around the idea that the characters participating are advancing in level through the arc: many quest lines just won't be able to be finished.

As opposed to what happens currently, which is:

A. If you're working on more than one quest chain at the same time, you often have outlevelled the rewards long before you finished any of the quest chains.

B. You get to the end of the chain and sigh in disappointment when you discover that, yet again, the final quest is a fellowship quest, destined to slowly go from blue to cyan to green to grey before it gets completed (or deleted).

We don't have other game systems that really imply (if not require) something like this. Other games that have this do. It's not because this is a hugely popular feature, intrinsic to the nature of MMOs, that causes other games implement this. It's because they have game systems that will not see much use unless they have it.

Well, EQ2 doesn't have any systems that "will not see much use" without an XP off switch, but they do have level caps on their instances, so in that sense you're correct. Of course, they also have a mentoring system that addresses the same issue (which, as of September, allows you to "mentor yourself" to any level multiple of 5).

From your perspective: it doesn't go backwards, and you'll really want it to, if you're serious about all the reasons for wanting the system. If we introduce lower level content (than what you stalled yourself at) in a book update (like we've been doing for a while now), this system doesn't help you. If another friend of yours who you want to match up with joins the game, this doesn't help you. If you're playing good Samaritan for random folks, this helps you a tiny sliver of the time (you have to be reasonably matched up to be a decent help-meet).

None of these issues are relevant to me (though they are to some proponents of the XP off switch). I have alts for exploring any new lower level content. I don't generally group much and when I do it's with the two friends I started with back in June. None of my other RL friends have any interest in MMOs, nor am I likely to meet anyone who does anytime soon. I'll let Tiempko respond to the Good Samaritan counterargument, as he's the one who brought it up in the first place.

Are the problems with shutting off XP fixable? Sure, but then it's not nearly as "free" a feature: addressing the issues means expanding it with more code and UIs and design. It becomes a full-fledged feature. That's when it gets into the, "Why are we spending so much time putting lipstick on this pig?" area, when what we really should have done is, for a little more effort, a real mentoring system.

If you really want to address the litany of reasons espoused, a mentoring system does it. It handles all the social reasons for wanting this. The challenge level issue for solo players is not answered by this, and that's where I would say go fight on-level stuff or roll an alt. Alts are fun. Or pull out your butterknife and have at it.

Like I said in my previous post, a mentoring system will be fine. Just try to build it so it can eventually include a self-mentoring option ;^)

[ArcticAurora]

From our perspective: it will be a call driver for CS, we know that. No matter how many warnings you put on something, people still forget, or don't notice, or they knew it was on but meant to turn it off before turning this one quest in, or whatever.

I'm not a proponent of this XP idea either, but really - for the sake of arguement, why not? For similar reasons we should bring back the horse race and simply put a disclaimer in the quest window. If you don't win, and you file a ticket 'because you sooo did win', it will be auto closed/ignored. Period.Why kill off content because some whiner with a keyboard and a 56k modem thought he won by a mile?

If YOU forget to enable full XP levelling, then YOU forgot. If they opt not to read, it's their problem. Put responsibility where it belongs - their lap.

Not getting optimal experience from saved quests is hardly as real an issue as being screwed out of gear you rightfully earned, but then the game bugged out. I'm sure the CSRs are more than experienced in not helping players /dig. If the CSRs were that overworked, why are they popping into public GLFF-type channels to say hello and chat on 'company time'? I'm cynical, and GMs popping up to chat isn't helping one bit.

[Celt_Ainvar]

I read your Post Floon Why not look at our ideas we posted on this topic. Then Point out the flaws of each and every Idea we have. Not keep falling back on CS this CS that. So we can Better Make a idea on how XP reducer will work.

[Kraggy]

Part of it comes from noticing a set of footprints on a hill to which no one ever specifically sends you.

...SNIP...

I prefer a more free-form explorer playstyle.

Well, as a free-form explorer I'm sure you'd discover those footprints (yes, I know the ones you mean) as you were exploring Trollshaws in the late 30s as that area is set up for.


I do admit I wasn't thinking of chains like that, I thought you were talking about entire quest hubs, but if you really do prefer an unstructured approach then this example of the footprints seems exactly what you're asking for: if you're in an area at the right level you'd find them.

[APErebusAU]

A. I still think you're overestimating the number of CS calls.

B. If CS can tell me "sorry, we can't replace that stack of Ruby Shards you lost due to the rollback that occurred after our servers crashed" and close the ticket, they can just as easily tell someone "sorry, we can't replace that XP you lost when you forgot to re-enable experience gain" and close the ticket.

C. Even if someone managed to do all the orange quests and found themselves without any viable quests, you drastically overestimate how many mobs they'd have to kill to gain a level (or two) and open up some new quests. Levelling in this game is not difficult.

A. You have access to their CS database do you? Know how many calls they get on basic things? I certainly don't, but you apparently do.

B. But losing a stack of ruby shards doesn't stop you from advancing the content, which leads to...

C. You are kidding me? If I, as a stupid user, accidently turned off all of my XP in moria, and did all of the content from 57-60 without any XP, you want me to grind the 300k+ XP required? at 300xp per kill (roughly) I'm looking foward to the 100,000 enemies I must kill. Fantastic!

From my point of view, this is such a non-issue. I see people looking for reasons why Turbine MUST do it, without access to any of the data that Turbine has to make these decisions.

The lack of trust is almost kind of painful.

[Tiempko]

Floon:

You write like somebody who demands to order for everybody whenever going out to eat with friends, because you know what they like better than they do. If they should ever think that they would have ordered something that you would not order for them, it is because they do not understand their own tastes, and it is a blessing unto them that you are here to make these decisions for them.

It is one thing to go to dinner with somebody like that. It is quite another to have the waiter himself adopt that attitude.

I am not going to argue against a mentoring system. There are situations in which I would use it. But there is much of value in stopping experience points that such a system would not address.

From your perspective: it doesn't go backwards, and you'll really want it to, if you're serious about all the reasons for wanting the system.

This is false.

When I log into the game, I wish to play a character - the lead character in an adventure story. I wish to have adventure and challenge. I do not like reading stories that are "gray" and boring, and I do not like being the lead character in such a story.

There is no place in such a story to "go backwards".

I would likely use a mentoring system if one were available to adventure with lower-level friends. But it is NOT the case that "all the reasons for wanting the system" recommends a mentoring system as well. My main reasons do not.

Note that my original request was not for an XP toggle, but for an XP slider - one that would allow me to reduce the rate at which I earn XP to, say, 25% of the rate that Turbine now forces on me. I would still progress through the levels. And my progess would be more in line with what Turbine seems to have designed for this game. A 25% XP rate is pretty much what is necessary to counter-act the accelerated XP curve, rest XP, and all of the bonus XP that is thrown at characters, allowing him to progress at the base rate.

You speak of having chains designed for characters that are leveling as they go through the instance. But the vast majority of those chains were designed for characters who were level-capped, so they all end at the same level (50 or 60). The instant a character steps above that cap, he is now above the level recommended for the END of all of those chains.

If I were to stop leveling at 50, how many quest chains are there that I will not be able to complete because I was not leveling?