Are Debuff wortwhile when soloing?

[jason1972]

It seems to me that any time a monster is too tough for me to burn down, because it is high level or elite or whatever so that I have to kite it instead, that the debuffs wear off so quick or are resisted so much that they are not worth the power cost.

Do other, more experienced LMs, find this to be true as well?


Please excuse my thread title grammar error.

[mrghosty4]

Vs elite mobs yes; however, vs normal mobs its a waste of time and doesn't do much.

[PF-Grumpy]

Vs elite mobs yes; however, vs normal mobs its a waste of time and doesn't do much.

I guess against a single mob maybe. But grouping up 5-6 melee mobs you might want to throw some fire lore on them imho.

Plus, if the OP doesn't know what to be debuffing, is it fair to assume that they haven't finished their class deeds? If so.. there is a reason to use them.

[Kaluu]

I can't see the downside to debuffing mobs. Debuffs do not take much power and only take a few seconds to apply.

Finding when to cast them while taking into consideration the cooldown and length of the effect and that timing in relation to the encounter is one factor that makes this class advanced.

In this forum there are numerous examples. Some recently deal with when to apply debuffs and in what order, which ones generate agro and which do not, and timing debuffs with a pets agro just to name a few off the top of my head. You will find times when you will need to plan out your debuffs taking into consideration power draws because you also have been giving power to party members. Letting a debuff run out while you are in the middle of a power draw is generally not a good idea. You also will know when you will be in melee with a mob and fit that in too. Stuff like that.

A fully traited Lm with all their traits can reduce a bosses dps by over 70% and so of course a mob too.

I usually play in easy encounters very much the same way I would in hard ones. If the leader of the group is yelling for debuffs on a boss, the healers are yelling for power, and the Lm is up to his neck in mobs and out of power, that's when you will be glad you had prepared yourself for just that kind of thing and that Lm isn't you.

[orccrusher]

It seems to me that any time a monster is too tough for me to burn down, because it is high level or elite or whatever so that I have to kite it instead, that the debuffs wear off so quick or are resisted so much that they are not worth the power cost.

Do other, more experienced LMs, find this to be true as well?


Please excuse my thread title grammar error.

Resists not withstanding, how much faster do you think that mob would beat you down without debuffs? -30% melee dmg is still -30% melee dmg.

[hucklebarry]

I don't think I've ever had power problems while soloing. The only time I recall running out of power is in a boss fight where I'm feeding power and either the boss is immune to drawing power, or he put a disease on the group that drains their power.

That being said, I don't see a penalty in using debuffs while soloing at all. I like to use the pet to start the pull and debuff while the pet has aggro, then start using the bigger hits, so that the time the mob gets to me, he has little to no life left. I typically throw a non-combat debuff while waiting for the pet to get to the mob.

[Kaluu]

Resists not withstanding, how much faster do you think that mob would beat you down without debuffs? -30% melee dmg is still -30% melee dmg.

That, of course, is only Fire Lore which is generally what the other classes are very familiar with. What they are generally not familiar with is Wind Lore that applies 10% attack duration to All both melee and ranged, Sign of Power Command for 20% attack duration and Gust of Wind for 10% miss chance. Warding Knowledge increases miss chance as well.

Unused and unplanned, these debuffs can be a bit inconvenient or impossible to use when the Lm is running or in the middle of a group of mobs getting hit on. For me, getting in the habit of using these with their cooldown and induction times is all good. I don't particularly care if they are needed or not because usually that need is determined after a wipe, numerous retreats, etc, anyway. And after comments like, "Gee, who agrod those mobs over there."or "I thought they wouldn't come." my favorite "Where did they come from?" I like comments like, "Any other group would have wiped on that one." or "That was a blast. I didn't think we would make it."

So I use them often even when I don't need them.

[caeadan]

Debuffing is always a good idea, it helps to make it routine so you don't have to think about it when grouping and it can't hurt.

[Rthen]

If your leveling up your loremaster its a good idea to learn to debuff because you will be doing a lot of that if you plan on doing any of the raid game. Your job will be to keep mobs debuffed and to trasfer your power to key members of the raid team.

Oh.. and cure dis and wound.....

So learning to do all this quickly and without thinking will me critical. If you screw up you won't get groups.

[Kaluu]

....

So learning to do all this quickly and without thinking will me critical. If you screw up you won't get groups.

I think this is true and true, and is truly unfortunate for the second. Some group leaders will not say anything but will notice and judge. The best group and kin leaders will teach and those who learn will be invited back. That is my experience anyway. The day I stop learning is the day I have reached the end of the internet, so to speak.

[MistyMountains]

Yes .

[Rthen]

I think this is true and true, and is truly unfortunate for the second. Some group leaders will not say anything but will notice and judge. The best group and kin leaders will teach and those who learn will be invited back. That is my experience anyway. The day I stop learning is the day I have reached the end of the internet, so to speak.

I admit freely that I am not the "best" loremaster. I am however at the disposal of any group or raid I join. I take suggestions well and even will put up with abbrasiveness.

Why? Because I enjoy plying the class and unerstand that groups have many loremasters to choose from for very few slots.

I consider myself lucky to get a group and am not afraid to say that.

[aleczander]

in those solo encounters that get hairy/painful.... debuffs WILL make the difference between wipe and phew.
if you can burn down a single mob before it even gets into melee range, then the question is basically irrelevant

[Kaluu]

in those solo encounters that get hairy/painful.... debuffs WILL make the difference between wipe and phew.
if you can burn down a single mob before it even gets into melee range, then the question is basically irrelevant

hehe. Not if he brought along a couple of uninvited friends or hailed a few as they were passing by and asked them to join the fun. Of course, you may have never had a bad pull or had any beam in on top of you.

[Rdeacon]

If the damage a mob would do to you normally would not slow down your leveling, then no, incoming damage debuffs will not be worthwhile. The time would be better spent using DPS skills.

Would Ancient Craft be worthwhile? Depends on how long it takes you to kill a mob. Anything longer than 15 seconds is probably worth it.

[Kajunlady]

Vs elite mobs yes; however, vs normal mobs its a waste of time and doesn't do much.

Indeed. Only time I worry about it is when it's a ranged mob.
Anything under elite I don't debuff at all
Elites I use Windlore (if ranged) and/or SoP See All Ends.
Master Elites I use Fire Lore rarely and just keep kiting
Nemesis I burn everything I have
Arch Nemesis (I've only soloed 2) same thing as Nemesis but I don't use Fire Lore as much because I'm too busy Kiting and trying to not let him hit me for a melee debuff that requires you to stand still to cast it.

[Harry2]

Debuffs help.

Practicing on normal mobs help prepare your Loremaster to fight tougher baddies, making your debuffs become second nature choices in your skill rotations. Leveling, you will be fighting close to on level or higher a lot of the time. Knowledge of what each and every debuff does, its duration and cooldown, its efficiency vs. specific target types, which skills benefit from particular debuffs, these all come from practice and trial.

I recommend debuffs for every situation. Except for drinking ale, then only cast the ones with pretty lights!

[Kaluu]

Debuffs help.

Practicing on normal mobs help prepare your Loremaster to fight tougher baddies, making your debuffs become second nature choices in your skill rotations. Leveling, you will be fighting close to on level or higher a lot of the time. Knowledge of what each and every debuff does, its duration and cooldown, its efficiency vs. specific target types, which skills benefit from particular debuffs, these all come from practice and trial.

I recommend debuffs for every situation. Except for drinking ale, then only cast the ones with pretty lights!

That's one modifier I had forgotton about

The fact the OP is asking seems to mean he is unfamiliar with the complete mechanics of the debuffs. I agree, the way to learn them is to use them. If he is asking because he measuring his character's durability against other Lms and wonders how he should be able to do without debuffs, then that is something else and not what I get from his post and not a valid yardstick anyway.

I don't subscribe to the idea of any of this being a waste of time or necessary or not necessary. We talking about pushing a button. The Power gods still have plenty. If a debuff increases a fight by a few seconds I do not care. If I have to cast a few more spells than absolutely necessary that does not bother me in the least. I have never had a fellowship member criticize me for debuffing a mob. If anything, I just reduced his repairs costs by 50% or so. I am a heavy armor wearer's best friend.

For those who are looking for the most efficient way, the absolutely fewest spells in absolutely the shortest time, I applaud you. I know where you are coming from and your attention to the smallest details of the game is absolutely valuable and needed.

[orccrusher]

The fact the OP is asking seems to mean he is unfamiliar with the complete mechanics of the debuffs. I agree, the way to learn them is to use them. If he is asking because he measuring his character's durability against other Lms and wonders how he should be able to do without debuffs, then that is something else and not what I get from his post and not a valid yardstick anyway.

True and well said. Do debuffs help while soloing? Undoubtedly. Do they make soloing slower? Probably, but not annoyingly so. At any rate, it's best to get the experience of applying and re-applying your debuffs so they become like second nature when you are end-game instances and raids.

My LM is unfortunately the forgotten stepchild of my toons atm. I took him into SG last night with kinmates and was admittedly quite out of practice. But once I knocked the dust off, it was amazing how much easier the boss fights became. Gorothul is a teddy bear when he's lugging around Fire Lore, SoP:C, SoP:SAE, Ancient Craft, and standing in a warding circle. Now if I could only spot that Loremaster sneaking up behind me in time to mez...

The point is, LMs need to keep track of a lot during a fight, and practicing your debuff rotation while you solo only helps when you get to the hard slogs of group content.

[jason1972]

I don't know what 'mechanics' there are beyond what is in the tool tips. I very rarely get groups at my level because people are mostly doing new content on their mains and very few people run GA, Dol Dinen, Fornost and all of the older content on my server. But I do kill Elites from time to time, and that is more a matter of tanking with the bear and timing DD and DoTs so that I can apply mezzes. I throw all of my debuffs, generally, but I find that I kill Elites about as successfully if I don't mostly because they seem to resist so much that it isn't worth waiting on the UCT, but that's just me. Eventually I'll be high enough to do raid content with my guild and have to learn that dynamic.

[aleczander]

I don't know what 'mechanics' there are beyond what is in the tool tips. I very rarely get groups at my level because people are mostly doing new content on their mains and very few people run GA, Dol Dinen, Fornost and all of the older content on my server. But I do kill Elites from time to time, and that is more a matter of tanking with the bear and timing DD and DoTs so that I can apply mezzes. I throw all of my debuffs, generally, but I find that I kill Elites about as successfully if I don't mostly because they seem to resist so much that it isn't worth waiting on the UCT, but that's just me. Eventually I'll be high enough to do raid content with my guild and have to learn that dynamic.

well, assuming you're fighting an elite same lvl as you, then you're resist rate goes up from 10% to what... ~30% (don't know exact #)
Point is, they won't all get resisted, and you may even get a chance to try again if fight is longer than a minute. Even with elites 2 or 3 lvls above you, you wanna still try, cause that's when the debuffs really can make a difference.

[Kaluu]

I don't know what 'mechanics' there are beyond what is in the tool tips. I very rarely get groups at my level because people are mostly doing new content on their mains and very few people run GA, Dol Dinen, Fornost and all of the older content on my server. But I do kill Elites from time to time, and that is more a matter of tanking with the bear and timing DD and DoTs so that I can apply mezzes. I throw all of my debuffs, generally, but I find that I kill Elites about as successfully if I don't mostly because they seem to resist so much that it isn't worth waiting on the UCT, but that's just me. Eventually I'll be high enough to do raid content with my guild and have to learn that dynamic.

Mechanics are timing generally, putting everything together after knowing what to put together and when. There are times when debuffs can't come down ever and the lm is using every debuff we have and debuffing more than one target, feeding power to several characters (sometimes a 12 man raid), throwing ranged dps, controlling pets, spot healing, mezing, stunning, and drawing power. If we run out of power, fail lol. If we let a debuff expire without an immediate refresh, fail. If a mini runs out of power, fail. On and on, stuff like that. Not that the raid will always fail, but we have failed. For a solo Lm doing hard mode on Ducharest in a BG raid, everything above is in that boss encounter in a big way except the mezes and stuns. There are many such encounters. They all vary.

Sounds to me like you are doing just fine. You are going to have alot of fun.

[orccrusher]

Gorothul is a teddy bear when he's lugging around Fire Lore, SoP:C, SoP:SAE, Ancient Craft, and standing in a warding circle

It looks like I may have spoken in error: We want Debuffs (Show us some love!)
Some EU posters have parsed out the effects of Fire Lore and Wind Lore on normal, sig, elite and above mobs and noted that the effectiveness of each debuff goes down as the mob gets bigger.

[aleczander]

It looks like I may have spoken in error: We want Debuffs (Show us some love!)
Some EU posters have parsed out the effects of Fire Lore and Wind Lore on normal, sig, elite and above mobs and noted that the effectiveness of each debuff goes down as the mob gets bigger.

that thread is downright disturbing. if WAI, then tooltip should say so, but it still is a huge nerf...