Confused about Amarthiel/Narmeleth *Contains Spoilers*

[Berephon]

Laerdan's breaking of Narchuil obviously did not have the effect of casting "Amarthiel" out of Narmeleth, although it may have weakened her (Amarthiel, that is). In the Sithad flashbacks, we see the two spirits wrestling for control of the body, with Laerdan trying to counsel and encourage the Narmeleth side. Eventually of course, Mordirith stops by to visit and Amarthiel takes over again, even without Narchuil being present or whole.

When Amarthiel is stricken down by Mordirith, Mordrambor claims Narchuil and cuts Narmeleth's hand off. After this and Laerdan's sacrifice, Narmeleth is freed from Amarthiel's grasp, but we never see the fell-spirit leave her as we did with Skorgrim.

So, what exactly happened here? Did Mordirith have the power to destroy the Amarthiel spirit? Or at least banish it back to the netherworld? Or did Mordrambor's maiming of Narmeleth cause Amarthiel to depart? Or did Narmeleth finally find the strength to simply cast Amarthiel out?

I gather from Berephon's comments that the Amarthiel spirit and the ring Narchuil were NOT necessarily connected to each other. The creation of Narchuil and the introduction of Amarthiel into Narmeleth were two separate acts of Sauron/Antheron. All that Narchuil did was make Amarthiel more powerful while she had it. She obviously didn't need it to do all the other nasty, evil stuff she did, like possessing people, changing shape, etc. Mordrambor didn't seem the least bit negatively affected by Narchuil (other than becoming even more smug and annoying than he had been before*).

Final random thought: My Sindarin is rusty, but "Amarthiel" translates as "doomed elf", does it not?

After her defeat and Laerdan's death, Narmaleth did indeed find the strength to cast out Amarthiel.

Amarthiel means Lady of Doom. (More literally She of Doom: -iel is a feminine agent suffix.)

[auximenes]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Thanks Berephon. It's always good to 'hear' the 'facts'.

[Westernesse]

Thanks for the clarifications. I thought it was something more like the minor ring/sauron/trauma at various acts she might of done basically given her a multi-personality disorder.

[ConstantiaChlorus]

Fiction is Fiction, hence fraught with Revision.
(so says the bard)

Strider was once Trotter,
Albus Dumbledor was never attracted to Witches,
and
The Force, that's actually bacteria called "midichlorians"

What the writer leaves vague they can fill in after with anything they want, but that's their right.

[Jadzi]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

Actually some of that DID make it in game. Sorta.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPnUhr1A5vE

[Avarune]

I just finally finished that whole story-line and I have to say that as it's set out in the game, it seems to be open to either interpretation. Obviously, from what Berephon said, Turbine meant them to be two separate spirits with Amarthiel an outside agency taking over Narmaleth. It's not obvious in the game.

The part that I still don't understand is why Amarthiel was running around disguised as Sara Oakheart. Yes, it's obvious why she might take on Sara's appearance when she wanted a harmless-looking disguise, but why did she want such a thing in the first place?

One can surmise that in the Elf intro, she was there to lure Cardavor to his death trying to defend her. But why is she in the Blackwold Cavern or Fornost?

It has always seemed to me that she was there mostly as some sort of OOC tease: "Haha! Look at this character we tricked you into rescuing so often! She was really evil all along."

[Longeur]

Official Answer: They are not the same.

Let me give you some background that you don't fully get in-game: Because Narchuil is a minor Ring of Power, not one of the Great Rings, it cannot be used to directly corrupt its wearer; however, it does open one to the influence of Sauron (as all rings of power do), and Narmeleth was swayed by Sauron in his beautiful form. She opened herself to him, and Sauron was able to put a fell spirit (Amarthiel) into her. (In short, she's possessed as Amarthiel.)

Does that mean we met Sauron during Session Play? Sheesh, I figured it was just one of the "lesser" evil lords. If I'd known it was Mr. Big, I'd have asked Laerdan to take him on right then and there!

[findorin-gilrain]

Does that mean we met Sauron during Session Play? Sheesh, I figured it was just one of the "lesser" evil lords. If I'd known it was Mr. Big, I'd have asked Laerdan to take him on right then and there!

Yes it does and yes you did!
The being called Antheron in the game is called Annatar in the Lore - Sauron in disguise....

[Digital_Utopia]

I just finally finished that whole story-line and I have to say that as it's set out in the game, it seems to be open to either interpretation. Obviously, from what Berephon said, Turbine meant them to be two separate spirits with Amarthiel an outside agency taking over Narmaleth. It's not obvious in the game.

The part that I still don't understand is why Amarthiel was running around disguised as Sara Oakheart. Yes, it's obvious why she might take on Sara's appearance when she wanted a harmless-looking disguise, but why did she want such a thing in the first place?

One can surmise that in the Elf intro, she was there to lure Cardavor to his death trying to defend her. But why is she in the Blackwold Cavern or Fornost?

It has always seemed to me that she was there mostly as some sort of OOC tease: "Haha! Look at this character we tricked you into rescuing so often! She was really evil all along."

Why? Because for all intents and purposes Narmaleth is Amarthiel, at least in the eyes of almost everybody else. Remember that old murder defense where the suspect claims that the Devil made them do it? Yeah kinda the same thing - except it's not just a figment of her imagination. Narmaleth is the Champion of Angmar by deeds and actions - regardless of whether Amarthiel's spirit is to blame. So, when Narmaleth escaped, she took the form of Sara Oakheart so she could blend in - walking around as Narmaleth or even Amarthiel would most likely raise some serious alarm among the free peoples. After all, if the Elves didn't know who Amarthiel really was, then Laredan would've had no reason to hide her away.

[Berephon]

I just finally finished that whole story-line and I have to say that as it's set out in the game, it seems to be open to either interpretation. Obviously, from what Berephon said, Turbine meant them to be two separate spirits with Amarthiel an outside agency taking over Narmaleth. It's not obvious in the game.

The part that I still don't understand is why Amarthiel was running around disguised as Sara Oakheart. Yes, it's obvious why she might take on Sara's appearance when she wanted a harmless-looking disguise, but why did she want such a thing in the first place?

One can surmise that in the Elf intro, she was there to lure Cardavor to his death trying to defend her. But why is she in the Blackwold Cavern or Fornost?

It has always seemed to me that she was there mostly as some sort of OOC tease: "Haha! Look at this character we tricked you into rescuing so often! She was really evil all along."

You get your answer for the Blackwold cave later on...if you recall, she is adamant about getting her staff. This was not actually her staff. This is the staff she collected as one of the components to summon the Rogmul later on.

[Ioffryd]

One can surmise that in the Elf intro, she was there to lure Cardavor to his death trying to defend her. But why is she in the Blackwold Cavern or Fornost?

She's in Garth Agarwen too, near Ivar's crypt.

So... let's see.

She's found near Skorgrim, at the center of what was supposed to be a war between elves and dwarves;

She's in the same cell as Amdir, who is fading into the shadow world and becoming a wraith;

She's with Ivar, who is raising an army of wights and trying to recruit Naruhel to his service;

And she's at Fornost, the site of her greatest victory, where she assisted in the original capture of the city by subverting four of its lords: getting them to swear fealty to her in exchange for morgul-blades that turned them into powerful wraiths. Now, orcs have recently re-occuppied the ruins, and the wraiths are back. Hmm...

She's still the Champion of Angmar. She's still Mordirith's Number-One kneecapper. She's out in the field, doing the dirty work, preparing for Angmar's assault on Eriador.

And yet, these pesky adventurers keep showing up to foil her plans! How to escape? In the form of a kindly, befuddled old woman. Just as things are going pear-shaped for Angmar, the very heroes who are thwarting evil are tricked into helping its most active servant get away to create new mischief somewhere else.

[Comstrike]

Fiction is Fiction, hence fraught with Revision.
(so says the bard)

Strider was once Trotter,

He could be called Sasquatch, dude still scored Liv Tyler.

Albus Dumbledor was never attracted to Witches,

True, but there was that one time in college, he was young, needed the money.

and
The Force, that's actually bacteria called "midichlorians"

And this is why Howie Mandel will never be able to use the Force.

[Comstrike]

So Narmeleth opens herself to Beautiful Sauron.



She creates a minor ring of power.



And is possessed by an evil spirit, which is also how we got Brittney Spears.

[cedwin]

Amarthiel possessed Narmeleth when she crafted the ring. According to the story, the "gift" person that she went with in book 15 was actually Sauron, who taught her the dark ways of ring crafting. Laerden broke the ring in two thinking it would get rid of Amarthiel, knowing that the ring was the cause of it all, but it didn't.

Losing the ring, being betayed by the witch-king, and seeing her father die all at once was enough to push Amarthiel out of Narmeleth's body apparently.

[Comstrike]

Losing the ring, being betayed by the witch-king, and seeing her father die all at once was enough to push Amarthiel out of Narmeleth's body apparently.

And gave us the plot to Lady Gaga's Bad Romance video.

[Sylux14]

You get your answer for the Blackwold cave later on...if you recall, she is adamant about getting her staff. This was not actually her staff. This is the staff she collected as one of the components to summon the Rogmul later on.

And I know for sure that either the GA or Fornost escort has her looking for either the horn or the scroll...

[Ouchiewawa]

Wait,

so she only takes the appearance of Sara? I thought she possessed Sara and overtook her spirit/body/form in doing so when she burnt down her house.

[aleczander]

it would be interesting to learn where the spirit "Amarthiel" originated. Was she an elf princess originally corrupted by Sauron, or even Morgoth?
kudos to Turbine for an interesting story

[Berephon]

it would be interesting to learn where the spirit "Amarthiel" originated. Was she an elf princess originally corrupted by Sauron, or even Morgoth?
kudos to Turbine for an interesting story

Fell spirits are fallen Maiar form creatures. In this case, a relatively minor one.

[cedwin]

Fell spirits are fallen Maiar form creatures. In this case, a relatively minor one.

I found her!

[auximenes]

I found her!

I'll bet Robert Plant would be love-struck if he saw her.

[gildhur]

I found her!

WIN! Very underrated movie, imo, largely because of her.

[Wilpatmo]

Fell spirits are fallen Maiar form creatures. In this case, a relatively minor one.

Citation needed!

(well, at least desired)

[Comstrike]

WIN! Very underrated movie, imo, largely because of her.

I will see your Tilda, and raise you Rachel.

[Comstrike]

Now, I am one of a half dozen people who have all finished Epic Volume 1 this week alone. And silly fun aside, I was actually very impressed with how it came together. I think it did pick-up a lot of speed late, and with impressive weight.

I'm waiting until after E3 to decide to start Volume II. However, I really think more now than even before, that it would be cool to have even more Epic Book content. Granted, with the progression of the game, it may not be logistically possible. But as I note in the Suggestion Forum, the LOTR books had a number of places where you work through a period in time, then jump to another place, earlier, and follow things through with other people.

As such, it might be cool to add to the existing volumes at some point. Granted, for the numerically confused, present it in such as way as to not mess to deeply with peoples ability to grasp non-linear story telling.