Lifetime Account Members Thread

[Zarador]

You know what would really end this argument about lifers getting the shaft?

Offer a one time buy back option and see who bites.

1. Credit the account for any unused time. Only played for 12 months, they give you a refund of $80 and convert the account to a VIP account.
2. Take away any free content offered by being a lifetimer and any perks received for that purchase, just a straight VIP account with whatever content purchased.

Then tell those who remain lifetimers that the perk is just a subscription, nothing more, same free points and perks as a VIP.

Then offer up the newly vacated lifetime accounts to the other players and see how long the offer lasts. My bet is that it would not last a day.

[Nymphonic]

You know what would really end this argument about lifers getting the shaft?

Offer a one time buy back option and see who bites.

1. Credit the account for any unused time. Only played for 12 months, they give you a refund of $80 and convert the account to a VIP account.
2. Take away any free content offered by being a lifetimer and any perks received for that purchase, just a straight VIP account with whatever content purchased.

Then tell those who remain lifetimers that the perk is just a subscription, nothing more, same free points and perks as a VIP.

Then offer up the newly vacated lifetime accounts to the other players and see how long the offer lasts. My bet is that it would not last a day.

I think it's just a case of people finding any excuse to doom and gloom. It doesn't matter how you prove your case, they will always find a way to make the situation look negative.

Last month some nutcase on the general forums said Turbine never read the suggestions forums and Sapience posted a long list of changes that came directly from the suggestion forums. And a handful of folks stood by their guns and did not believe him or said the changes were not important to gameplay.

Dang, I just noticed I quoted a post. Some guy(I can't say his name because of forum rules) on the Naughty list thread in the suggestions forums is complaining because he feels I quote posts too much. Sorry, I'll try to refrain from hitting the quote button!

[azureal1977]

I think it's just a case of people finding any excuse to doom and gloom. It doesn't matter how you prove your case, they will always find a way to make the situation look negative.

This x 1000000000. And after awhile, it starts to get you down which sucks.

[GothicNosferatu]

Turbine Store items are optional, not required. If you're infected with the Pokemon Syndrome (gotta buy it all!), then that is your own personal problem. Otherwise, the game can be enjoyed without purchasing a single item with real cash.

Problem is I have some experience with F2P games, and trust me, the "optional" items are not very optional. When they add items to the store that give a distinct advantage (i.e. extra weapon gem sockets, extra trait slots, ability to equip main-hand items in the offhand, etc) to the game and your choice is to pay $5-$25 or kill 6,000,000 monsters with a game time investment of YEARS, the players will dish out the dollars. Now multiply this time several distinct advantages, and heaven forbid, several alts, and you have now paid hundreds of dollars for your "FREE" game.

This IS the business model of F2P, they crunched the numbers and determined the money they get from the average player from subscription fees before he quits is X (i.e. $90 in 6 months), with F2P the average that same player will spend before he quits is much more than X (i.e. $200 in 6 months).

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than the targeted F2P players.

[azureal1977]

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than targeted F2P player.

Seems I spoke too soon.

Honestly, acceptance is the first step.

Accept the fact youre going to get a chunk of extra TP's, and thats it, then move on. It will be good for you and everyone else.

This "Im a lifer and I deserve more" line is getting old.

[Nymphonic]

This "Im a lifer and I deserve more" line is getting old.

Agreed.


I'm a lifer and quite frankly, I'm happy with what I've gotten so far.

[Darej]

Problem is I have some experience with F2P games, and trust me, the "optional" items are not very optional. When they add items to the store that give a distinct advantage (i.e. extra weapon gem sockets, extra trait slots, ability to equip main-hand items in the offhand, etc) to the game and your choice is to pay $5-$25 or kill 6,000,000 monsters with a game time investment of YEARS, the players will dish out the dollars. Now multiply this time several distinct advantages, and heaven forbid, several alts, and you have now paid hundreds of dollars for your "FREE" game.

This IS the business model of F2P, they crunched the numbers and determined the money they get from the average player from subscription fees before he quits is X (i.e. $90 in 6 months), with F2P the average that same player will spend before he quits is much more than X (i.e. $200 in 6 months).

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than the targeted F2P players.

please...can you list the F2P games that you have experience with that were hybrid models of f2p and monthly subscription that didnt start out as f2p?

cause i can only think of one game that fits that and i dont see anything in the DDO store that fits your concerns.

[Zarador]

Problem is I have some experience with F2P games, and trust me, the "optional" items are not very optional. When they add items to the store that give a distinct advantage (i.e. extra weapon gem sockets, extra trait slots, ability to equip main-hand items in the offhand, etc) to the game and your choice is to pay $5-$25 or kill 6,000,000 monsters with a game time investment of YEARS, the players will dish out the dollars. Now multiply this time several distinct advantages, and heaven forbid, several alts, and you have now paid hundreds of dollars for your "FREE" game.

This IS the business model of F2P, they crunched the numbers and determined the money they get from the average player from subscription fees before he quits is X (i.e. $90 in 6 months), with F2P the average that same player will spend before he quits is much more than X (i.e. $200 in 6 months).

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than the targeted F2P players.

First off, it's not a "investment of years" on your part, it's getting to use their product for your entertainment for years. In other words, you got what you paid for every month that you played. You were not working for some company with the aspect of getting paid for your efforts at some point down the line.

Second off, you did not pay up front for the benefit of being able to use the store cost free, you paid up front for the ability to log in without a reoccurring monthly bill hoping at some point that the amount you paid up front would meet or exceed what it would have cost you to play the game over time. That's your loyalty reward. In the course of one year a monthly subscriber pays $180.00, a multi-month subscriber pays $120. So in less than two years, your essentially no longer supporting that game that you claim you devoted loyalty to. If it's really about your being rewarded for such staunch support to the game, how about sending them a check instead of riding for free.

Third off, your receiving a annual stipend of the equivalent of $60 per year as a bonus for being a paid subscriber. If you added that to a 12 month multi-month plan, that's a $180 value right there.

For the comprehension challenged, here is how it breaks down:

Lifetimer:
Play for 12 months ($120.00) + the free $60 in points = $180 - Investment almost recouped, get $60 in points every year, play for 14 months, never pay again for login access. Take a break, still keep getting those points, forever.

VIP:
Pay for 12 months ($120-$180), get $60 in free points = Cost of $60-$120 per year, pay every month for your access for as long as you play the game. Take a break, get downgraded to Premium, no more points till you resubscribe.

Premium:
Pay for new content that gets released and new features. You get to keep what you paid for, get some restrictions added to a VIP to Premium Account. No more free points since you don't pay for the game.

F2P:
Pay, pay, pay and Pay some more. If your truly hardcore and watch your points, you pay for less than the VIP. Odds are however you upgrade to Premium or even better VIP.

Which plan sounds like the best bang for the buck? If you had $200 in your pocket right now to spend on this game and the offer for lifetime was still there, where would your $200 go? Bluntly, who gets the most for the money? I guess the logic of the statement that somehow a lifetime account deserves even more than the generous offer they received escapes me. If you claim that you are going to be around for much longer than any other player and your account pays for itself in full after 14 months under the new plan, how does playing for free make you a more viable customer to Turbine? How does "Free over time" make for an attractive business model? In other words, had every player that signed up initially went with the $300 option of lifetime and then the added players as time went on all went with the $200 option, where would the game be now? Companies, like individuals, often fail to invest and save on a windfall of income. So there would have been this huge influx of revenue followed by years of a dry spell.

[Knight_who_says_Ni]

F2P:
Pay, pay, pay and Pay some more....

Just like to point out that F2Per's never pay anything....hence being called free. As soon as they do pay anything, they're automatically premium.

[Zarador]

Just like to point out that F2Per's never pay anything....hence being called free. As soon as they do pay anything, they're automatically premium.

Valid point!

In my post I lumped the premium/never paid a subscription fee in with the F2P crowd and kept the Premium converted from VIP as a class of itself. It's been one of my arguments that there should have been a further distinction between Premium and Premium from VIP. Most shot me down on that concept saying they are exactly the same, just totally different in nature.

[Artanisul]

Just like to point out that F2Per's never pay anything....hence being called free. As soon as they do pay anything, they're automatically premium.

Yay!!! Facts!

People keep saying the "lifers deserve more" attitude gets old. What gets really old is false info used to support a claim. In my most recent turn to the doom and gloom side of things It has been because of the things I have been seeing happening. The release of what is in the store and Words said by developers. None of that has been false info, or assumptions.

The things in the screen shots are not what I see as convenience. There was no reason to give the "Transitive explanation" concerning the Guild ships in DDO other then laying ground work to use that philosophy. If that philosophy IS used in the future then the game will have become "pay to advance."

(What I am refering to is the statement "Yes it can only be gotten in the store, but since you can earn Points in game then that means there is an in game way to earn the item. Just to make sure I don't sound like I am making up some behind the scene situation.)

[Kraggy]

(What I am refering to is the statement "Yes it can only be gotten in the store, but since you can earn Points in game then that means there is an in game way to earn the item. Just to make sure I don't sound like I am making up some behind the scene situation.)

And how in any way does that violate the "nothing will be ONLY obtainable in the Store" stance?

As I always say when supporting Turbine, I abhor RMT in all its' forms, but raising false claims about their duplicity isn't the way to win an argument.

There is NO DIFFERENCE of PRINCIPLE between items being obtained by grinding tokens IN GAME and bartering them with an NPC IN GAME, and items being obtained by grinding points IN GAME and bartering them to BUTTON ON A WEB SITE.

Sorry, you may hate MTs eve more than me, but if you are seriously arguing there's a difference of PRINCIPLE here, or even a PRACTICAL difference, you won't impress anyone that your view has any merit at all.

[Mark_J]

Just like to point out that F2Per's never pay anything....hence being called free. As soon as they do pay anything, they're automatically premium.

So if they buy something like a gold cap removal or additional character slot from the store they are automatically upgraded to Premium???

[macdadg]

As a lifetime founder, I don't feel that I deserve anything more than what I payed for...access to the servers to play for as long as the servers are up.

Getting a bunch of points up front when LOTRO goes f2p? bonus. TYVM Turbine

Getting a 500 point per month allowance for as long as the servers are up? bonus. TYVM Turbine.

With these bonuses, I don't know how much, if any of my own money I will spend in the Turbine Store. Undoubtedly, I would have spent more in the Turbine Store if I weren't getting these bonuses. I plan on purchasing the extra character slots and shared storage expansion.

[Zarador]

So if they buy something like a gold cap removal or additional character slot from the store they are automatically upgraded to Premium???

The upgrade to premium is really not all that it seems to be. It simply means that if you spend real life coin, your no longer free to play, since you spent money.

Beyond that, you still pay for anything that you have not owned or unlocked in the past as far as I understand.

[ArahadEketta]

So if they buy something like a gold cap removal or additional character slot from the store they are automatically upgraded to Premium???

If they aquired these from the store with the points they earned while playing they remain f2p. However, if they use money to purchase points they become premium.

If I had to guess though, if someone were to want to remain f2p they would not be using their free points to get the gold cap removal or additional character slots. I think this because, if they were to use their free points for these, then they would not have enough points left to open up new areas to quest in.

[Zarador]

If they aquired these from the store with the points they earned while playing they remain f2p. However, if they use money to purchase points they become premium.

If I had to guess though, if someone were to want to remain f2p they would not be using their free points to get the gold cap removal or additional character slots. I think this because, if they were to use their free points for these, then they would not have enough points left to open up new areas to quest in.

I see "Free to Play" much as I see a weekend at a Time Share for "Free". The concept is to have you walk in expecting a free weekend of fun at a resort and walk out paying for a "Time Share". Some people I know do the weekends all the time and never spend a penny. The few that walk away with a "One Time Offer of a Lifetime" foot the bill for the rest. The others come to realize that paying for the vacation that they really want is a far better deal.

EDIT: As an amusing aside, totally unrelated, the wife and I walked into a furniture store yesterday during a "Mega Sale of the Century". We were looking for a sectional unit and the prices seemed reasonable. The pressure however was getting out of hand with the huge amount of sales people pushing the deals. The salesperson started the line that I heard them use several times in the store while browsing "Remember, if you don't buy it today.." to which I finished "That means that at 50% the item did not sell, so it will be here the next day and you will be even more anxious to sell it off". The salesperson just stopped and gave me a harsh look explaining it was a one time sale. I replied politely that I also run a store and we have "huge" sales on items headed for a discount broker that will give us cost at best, so I'm always willing to cut a deal after the sale. In some ways it relates because people were scooping up items thinking they had great bargains not watching as they were "upgraded" to a better unit then charged for rush delivery and scotch guarding spending well more than they most likely intended. Most likely we will purchase our item down the street with free delivery and scotch guard included for around the same price with no gimmicks or added pressure. Some people however will always wind up spending the same, if not more, for a deal too good to pass up. Free to Play is counting on that!

[erikthe10man]

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than the targeted F2P players.

You paid up front for the right to never have to pay sub fees again, and you are getting that benefit. What more do you want? They are GIVING you extra points just for being a lifer! How can you justify getting anything extra than what you paid for? You'd still have to pay for expansions and bonus packs in the old model - what changes that in the new F2P one?

You must have literally howled when Mirkwood came out, as you would be "entitled" to get it for free by your standards. Also, Turbine should send you some Skybox tickets for the NFL team of your choice, $100 savings coupons for the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, and three F2P players to serve as in-game peons. All because you decided to pay up front to never pay fees again.

[Zarador]

Now, you seem hung up on the idea that since lifetime members are at (or past) this "break even" point , that we are now somehow due to start paying up again. We are not, we paid UP FRONT for this benefit. This is why I feel that lifetime accounts should be afforded some extra perks for our INVESTMENT in the game. If not extra points, then a permanent discount for our UP FRONT loyalty to the game. We are certainly going to be around for longer than the targeted F2P players.

You paid up front for the right to never have to pay sub fees again, and you are getting that benefit. What more do you want? They are GIVING you extra points just for being a lifer! How can you justify getting anything extra than what you paid for? You'd still have to pay for expansions and bonus packs in the old model - what changes that in the new F2P one?

You must have literally howled when Mirkwood came out, as you would be "entitled" to get it for free by your standards. Also, Turbine should send you some Skybox tickets for the NFL team of your choice, $100 savings coupons for the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, and three F2P players to serve as in-game peons. All because you decided to pay up front to never pay fees again.

+Rep if I could!

No one "invested" in anything but a savings plan for their future gaming costs. Now some are demanding that they receive a bonus beyond the savings, beyond the free points, beyond comprehension actually.

You bulk up at the local supermarket on a deal on cereal that saves you a bundle. You did not save the supermarket, you did not save General Mills, you saved yourself a ton of money (if you eat it all). Now the register, as many now do, spits out more savings coupons for the cereal. That's an added bonus. You get to save more. They don't however continue to give you free cereal and more discounts just because you saved that time on a great deal.

The guy in line next week runs out of cereal and buys some at full price. The store does not give them a nasty look and great you as the guy with the 40 boxes of cereal that kept the store alive last week. They gladly take his money while you wait up for the next great deal.

Welcome to life where saving money on an item or a service is a bonus. Getting more free stuff because you saved money is often unheard of. Expecting the world to bow at your feet because in the end you pay less than the next guy...priceless!

Anyone else find it ironic that the most vocal crowd against bringing revenue into the game is the crowd that after 14 months recouped their "investment" and no longer has to pay? Why should the company be so greedy and people to spend extra money on extras in a game when were already riding the gravy train for free? Speaking of free, we want some more!

[StavroMuellerBeta]

And how in any way does that violate the "nothing will be ONLY obtainable in the Store" stance?

When did they take that stance? The stance I saw, both in the Lotro and DDO store FAQs, is that premium stuff would only come from gameplay.

Non-premium stuff, as the improved airships turned out to be, can be available solely via the store without going against anything they've said (logically some stuff will have to be store-only, otherwise there would be no real profit from building it). But when they make this "transitive property" argument, it really puts into question what their long-term plans are for the store.

[Artanisul]

And how in any way does that violate the "nothing will be ONLY obtainable in the Store" stance?

As I always say when supporting Turbine, I abhor RMT in all its' forms, but raising false claims about their duplicity isn't the way to win an argument.

There is NO DIFFERENCE of PRINCIPLE between items being obtained by grinding tokens IN GAME and bartering them with an NPC IN GAME, and items being obtained by grinding points IN GAME and bartering them to BUTTON ON A WEB SITE.

Sorry, you may hate MTs eve more than me, but if you are seriously arguing there's a difference of PRINCIPLE here, or even a PRACTICAL difference, you won't impress anyone that your view has any merit at all.

If the gaining of points is similar or even exactly like DDO, then it takes the creation and deletion of characters run through a repeating grind over and over to grind out points. That to me is not the same, IE not ok to do, as "earned through game play."

Obviously I am not alone. Obviously we who feel that way could be terribly wrong.
Turbine decides.

[Zarador]

If the gaining of points is similar or even exactly like DDO, then it takes the creation and deletion of characters run through a repeating grind over and over to grind out points. That to me is not the same, IE not ok to do, as "earned through game play."

Obviously I am not alone. Obviously we who feel that way could be terribly wrong.
Turbine decides.

I can only speculate that it becomes a arduous mechanism whereby you determine if the items that are only available through store points are either worth the time or the money. The choice at that point, much as any choice in life comes down to "How bad do you want it?".

Looking at some of the items in DDO, I can only say that I don't see them as game breaking offers, just rather nice perks that would be "cool" to have.

The real beauty in all this is that avoiding a visit to the store eliminates that factor of the game anyway. I never purchased a single item from the SoE store because I never planned on spending my extra cash there in the first place. My game was never ruined by the store, I simply played in the same manner that I had in the past. I see a $100,000 sports car driving down the road and I admire that. I get in our car and I enjoy it just the same. Would I love to own that sports car? I guess so, but then again, I don't have any desire to go out and buy one, thus I don't visit the showroom and cry how that car makes my car look worse.

[Artanisul]

I can only speculate that it becomes a arduous mechanism whereby you determine if the items that are only available through store points are either worth the time or the money. The choice at that point, much as any choice in life comes down to "How bad do you want it?".

Looking at some of the items in DDO, I can only say that I don't see them as game breaking offers, just rather nice perks that would be "cool" to have.

The real beauty in all this is that avoiding a visit to the store eliminates that factor of the game anyway. I never purchased a single item from the SoE store because I never planned on spending my extra cash there in the first place. My game was never ruined by the store, I simply played in the same manner that I had in the past. I see a $100,000 sports car driving down the road and I admire that. I get in our car and I enjoy it just the same. Would I love to own that sports car? I guess so, but then again, I don't have any desire to go out and buy one, thus I don't visit the showroom and cry how that car makes my car look worse.

I am totally on board with your car analogy. Could not agree more. The only reason the transitive thing popped on my radar is as it was originally described it was for a boost to in game performance that could only be gotten from the store. Later it turned out that the ships with the same function could be bought with in game cash.

It is great that the bonus can be gotten with in game cash. What wasn't great was that the dev even mentioned that grinding points in DDO was a valid way of saying it can be earned via game play. That is not playing the game over there. That is gaming the system.

Just an opinion, luckily for my sanity not just MY opinion, or even just a few peoples opinion.

[GothicNosferatu]

You paid up front for the right to never have to pay sub fees again, and you are getting that benefit. What more do you want? They are GIVING you extra points just for being a lifer! How can you justify getting anything extra than what you paid for? You'd still have to pay for expansions and bonus packs in the old model - what changes that in the new F2P one?

You must have literally howled when Mirkwood came out, as you would be "entitled" to get it for free by your standards. Also, Turbine should send you some Skybox tickets for the NFL team of your choice, $100 savings coupons for the Bunny Ranch in Nevada, and three F2P players to serve as in-game peons. All because you decided to pay up front to never pay fees again.

The difference between and Expansion and F2P is huge. When I pay for an expansion, I have ALL of the features and benefits that every other player has. The playfield remains the same for everybody for a reasonable fixed amount of dollars. With F2P, all bets are off. They can and will add items that give a substantial advantage in game that you will have to buy, most likely per character. This can and will end up costing a substantial amount of money in order to maintain a competitive edge in the game. As lifetime members, I feel we should get something for our investment to help minimize the need to spend excess dollars just to keep our game play on par with the competitive edge as it develops.

You are still rationalizing that what we paid for Lifetime membership as some sort of pre-paid card service that has now run out of funds. This is not what we paid for or invested in. And the gripe is that the business model has now changed and we are just thrown into the mix. This is what is unfair about this change. I have several lifetime memberships and have never seen something like this occur before.

[nolesrule]

As lifetime members, I feel we should get something for our investment to help minimize the need to spend excess dollars just to keep our game play on par with the competitive edge as it develops.

500 pts per month for use in the store.

Lifetimers get the exact same benefits as subscribers, without having to fork out any money.