Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[Dayln]

I dont even want to see it for personal use only, it would take what otherwise would be a good player and focus too much attention on a single thing.

[findorin-gilrain]

Bah whatever happened to fun. Spend all your time loking at "optimized rotations" and "perfect trait set-ups". Whatever happened to throwing an unnecssary shing shing is because it is cool and funny, or using light oil even when not warrented because of the really cool glowing curvy arrow animation?

[Khafar]

Threat/DPS meters will happen. I'll bet ya 500 TP

I'll take you up on that bet, but only for the threat meters. Say... in the next 2 years? You're on.

I don't really want DPS meters, but people can get by with combat log parsers on those already, and if they ever give us chat feeds in the plug-in API, people will be able to create their own DPS meters. They'll have some latency and won't be perfectly accurate, but they'll be "good enough". Threat meters are a different beast.

Khafar

[Celestialdemons]

Bah whatever happened to fun. Spend all your time loking at "optimized rotations" and "perfect trait set-ups". Whatever happened to throwing an unnecssary shing shing is because it is cool and funny, or using light oil even when not warrented because of the really cool glowing curvy arrow animation?

Something fun for you may not be fun for someone else.

Fun is very subjective.

[Ualtar]

Something fun for you may not be fun for someone else.

Fun is very subjective.

That is true, but a very small subset of people that want DPS/threat meters wants to impose their fun on everybody else. For me it isn't fun to have people judging my numbers. I can find that in my work and college classes easily enough. I don't want it in a game and many others agree as you can see from this thread.

[Grampsaz]

I'll take you up on that bet, but only for the threat meters. Say... in the next 2 years? You're on.

I don't really want DPS meters, but people can get by with combat log parsers on those already, and if they ever give us chat feeds in the plug-in API, people will be able to create their own DPS meters. They'll have some latency and won't be perfectly accurate, but they'll be "good enough". Threat meters are a different beast.

Khafar

I was going to say like, 1 year, but 2? Sure

[RingOfFire]

Threat/DPS meters will happen. I'll bet ya 500 TP

Personal DPS meters are possible already, and have been used for parsing and such. But as for threat meters and group DPS meter plugins, there is one slight problem...

That requires access to data not being sent to the client.

To function, such plugins need access to data outside of that particular client (ie. data on the server or being sent to other clients). At that point is when they cross the line. If the functionality is ever opened to allow acces to data stored on the server or being sent to other clients, that opens a whole different can of worms. Not a very wise idea.

Judging from that, I would say that the chances are actually extremely low for such meters to be introduced to LOTRO. Perhaps around 0%, maybe a little more.

[KenR]

Personal DPS meters are possible already, and have been used for parsing and such. But as for threat meters and group DPS meter plugins, there is one slight problem...

That requires access to data not being sent to the client.

To function, such plugins need access to data outside of that particular client (ie. data on the server or being sent to other clients). At that point is when they cross the line. If the functionality is ever opened to allow acces to data stored on the server or being sent to other clients, that opens a whole different can of worms. Not a very wise idea.

Judging from that, I would say that the chances are actually extremely low for such meters to be introduced to LOTRO. Perhaps around 0%, maybe a little more.

Group meters are possible as well. I believe someone mentioned a working version earlier. It's simply a matter of all the clients sharing information with each other.

However, changes were made to the LUA scripting API that will prevent any sort of real time DPS meters from appearing in game group or individual.

[kerryak]

Agreed. There are already jerks on Nimrodel who like to blow their hot air. There are also a lot of pros that do their job well and are really nice. Are parsers and threat meters supposed to magically transform everyone?

The important question is: Why is Claire Danes so damn hot?

Yeah, Nim has alot of classy guys that just shut up and execute. The loud ones that don't execute b/c they're being carried are HILARIOUS though. But we've already established that I'm easily entertained.

And she's hot b/c she's Claire Danes. Galadriel may have given Gimli 3 strands of her hair, but Claire Danes gave us My So Called Life.

Case closed.

I will vouch for the Hat. The Hat is a good people. Even if he did play BLM.

BUT HE'S SO CUTE A TARU SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[rawlingsst7]

How so? Doesn't having someone else in addition to yourself, looking at your rotation and giving suggestions further your improvement?

I know I'd like as many ppl as possible to look at my numbers and rotations and traits and IA's to give me a broader view and maybe a narrower outline.

Its like saying, Fire or Lightning for RK dps. Your going to get the majority to say Lightning, which will give you your narrow outline, but when looking further into Lightning spec, you'll get a broader view with many other suggestions.

There's a distinction between asking someone to give you advice, chatting with them about your rotation/build; and having that person watching you like Big Brother, ready to add criticism (wanted or unwanted, constructive or otherwise). It's psychological, but to a lot of people -- it matters. Some people can't work as well if they know they're being watched, scrutinized. But they might be perfectly open to sitting down and discussing ways to improve or optimize after the fight.

[Grothaal2]

Bah whatever happened to fun. Spend all your time loking at "optimized rotations" and "perfect trait set-ups". Whatever happened to throwing an unnecssary shing shing is because it is cool and funny, or using light oil even when not warrented because of the really cool glowing curvy arrow animation?

True

I dont like the conventions. I dont like people saying turtle NEEDS 2 captains, I dont like people saying that piece is EXCLUSIVELLY for a given class and I should not roll on it, etc.

I did roll and won Ril Mir, I wanted that extra Vit and could sacrifice some Agi. So what? LOL

Anything that can lead to people telling what others should do I am against to. The metters can open a door many would not like to enter, a path that should not be threaded.

Masking stats and numbers? I would find that funny, and cool

[Grampsaz]

Personal DPS meters are possible already, and have been used for parsing and such. But as for threat meters and group DPS meter plugins, there is one slight problem...

That requires access to data not being sent to the client.

To function, such plugins need access to data outside of that particular client (ie. data on the server or being sent to other clients). At that point is when they cross the line. If the functionality is ever opened to allow acces to data stored on the server or being sent to other clients, that opens a whole different can of worms. Not a very wise idea.

Judging from that, I would say that the chances are actually extremely low for such meters to be introduced to LOTRO. Perhaps around 0%, maybe a little more.

I realize that, which is why i've stated several times that Turbine knowingly released this stripped down ver. of the LUA tools and functions, but they have already stated that they will continue to realize more info to us over time, while keeping tabs on the effects of these tools.

They will release it. Not this launch, its still in beta and we might not even get it with F2P, but one day down the road they will open up the floodgates and allow us access to chat and character info and group info.

Its going to happen.

There's a distinction between asking someone to give you advice, chatting with them about your rotation/build; and having that person watching you like Big Brother, ready to add criticism (wanted or unwanted, constructive or otherwise). It's psychological, but to a lot of people -- it matters. Some people can't work as well if they know they're being watched, scrutinized. But they might be perfectly open to sitting down and discussing ways to improve or optimize after the fight.

Like i've said before, I'm not going to sit here and assume I know what its like for players to Pug because I dont pug. Ever. But, its easy to admit for me, that your absolutely correct in your statement there, I aggree fully.

thats why you separate yourself from those players and those types of groups.

[rawlingsst7]

Like i've said before, I'm not going to sit here and assume I know what its like for players to Pug because I dont pug. Ever. But, its easy to admit for me, that your absolutely correct in your statement there, I aggree fully.

thats why you separate yourself from those players and those types of groups.

I hardly ever PUG either. And I agree.

I guess it comes down to a personal meter/parser being Opt-In, and a Group Meter being Opt-Out. Personally I much prefer Opt-In.

[RingOfFire]

I realize that, which is why i've stated several times that Turbine knowingly released this stripped down ver. of the LUA tools and functions, but they have already stated that they will continue to realize more info to us over time, while keeping tabs on the effects of these tools.

They will release it. Not this launch, its still in beta and we might not even get it with F2P, but one day down the road they will open up the floodgates and allow us access to chat and character info and group info.

Its going to happen.

Neither of us, or anyone else here, know what is going to happen. You think it will, and I think it will not. We have no hard data to base such conclusions on yet, unfortunately.

However, Frelorn did say that it is their (Turbine) intent to not allow players to make plugins which will give them any sort of advantage over other players (here is a link). A threat meter gives a major advantage in letting a player know exactly how much threat they can generate without pulling aggro, and while a group DPS meter may not be listed under such a category, the if/thens are already pretty clear from other player's experiences with that from other games (as posted here). While such data is more or less relative, the logical series of events is not very obscured if at all.

[Devildoc]

"Is the mob dead?"

For this game that's all the performance evaluation you need.

Did the frakkin mob die? If it did then you performed well.

11 people can carry 1 deadweight through a lot of content, but then when you get to something truely hard, that 1 deadweight can screw the pooch for the entire raid. So no "did it die" is not an accurate measurement of performance.

[Grampsaz]

Neither of us, or anyone else here, know what is going to happen. You think it will, and I think it will not. We have no hard data to base such conclusions on yet, unfortunately.

However, Frelorn did say that it is their (Turbine) intent to not allow players to make plugins which will give them any sort of advantage over other players (here is a link). A threat meter gives a major advantage in letting a player know exactly how much threat they can generate without pulling aggro, and while a group DPS meter may not be listed under such a category, the if/thens are already pretty clear from other player's experiences with that from other games (as posted here). While such data is more or less relative, the logical series of events is not very obscured if at all.

Again, I take you back to several quotes in the past, "We will only offer convenience items in the store" " We are not talking about moving our payment method to a F2P model like DDO, DDO was the type of game that could accommodate such a payment model, while Lotro isn't" and of course, "will will not provide micro-transactions in Lotro"

You dont honestly think that Turbine will stick to their previous quote on the advange vs disadvantage via plugins do you? They will not.

I'm telling you, Threat meters and DPS meters and every type of add-on you could imagine are going to be coming to Lotro.

[Lestache]

Again, I take you back to several quotes in the past, "We will only offer convenience items in the store" " We are not talking about moving our payment method to a F2P model like DDO, DDO was the type of game that could accommodate such a payment model, while Lotro isn't" and of course, "will will not provide micro-transactions in Lotro"

You dont honestly think that Turbine will stick to their previous quote on the advange vs disadvantage via plugins do you? They will not.

I'm telling you, Threat meters and DPS meters and every type of add-on you could imagine are going to be coming to Lotro.

With any luck, the add-ons will only be available through the Store. If their arrival is inevitable, might as well incur as much drama as possible.

[Cellendil]

11 people can carry 1 deadweight through a lot of content, but then when you get to something truely hard, that 1 deadweight can screw the pooch for the entire raid. So no "did it die" is not an accurate measurement of performance.

If you need a meter to tell you who is pooch-screwing in your raid, your problems are bigger than the issue of carrying one deadweight character.

[RingOfFire]

Again, I take you back to several quotes in the past, "We will only offer convenience items in the store" " We are not talking about moving our payment method to a F2P model like DDO, DDO was the type of game that could accommodate such a payment model, while Lotro isn't" and of course, "will will not provide micro-transactions in Lotro"

You dont honestly think that Turbine will stick to their previous quote on the advange vs disadvantage via plugins do you? They will not.

I'm telling you, Threat meters and DPS meters and every type of add-on you could imagine are going to be coming to Lotro.

To stress it again, there is no way of knowing if they will be coming to LOTRO or not. Arguments like this tend to run in circles, so let's try and stick to whatever hard data we have... and we have no hard data which says that such addons will not be in LOTRO or that such functionality will be enabled eventually.

There are few things which are hard and fast here. Other than things such as no world-scale PvP (the license prevents them from doing that), there are few others I know of... and this is not one of them.

[SaintBass]

Just as a random nitpick, the "deal with it" meme is a forced meme and unfunny. I understand the sentiment though.

[Bradd]

I hope they are very careful about what addons they allow. I left AC1 because of all the botters and scripters. I don't want to start down that slippery slope.

[Grampsaz]

With any luck, the add-ons will only be available through the Store. If their arrival is inevitable, might as well incur as much drama as possible.

Ohh I like that! Great idea actually. Turbine in house plug-ins in the Lotro store, I might just throw that into the suggestion forums if you dont mind?

[Lestache]

Ohh I like that! Great idea actually. Turbine in house plug-ins in the Lotro store, I might just throw that into the suggestion forums if you dont mind?

All yours, man.

[Grampsaz]

To stress it again, there is no way of knowing if they will be coming to LOTRO or not. Arguments like this tend to run in circles, so let's try and stick to whatever hard data we have... and we have no hard data which says that such addons will not be in LOTRO or that such functionality will be enabled eventually.

There are few things which are hard and fast here. Other than things such as no world-scale PvP (the license prevents them from doing that), there are few others I know of... and this is not one of them.

Your actually making my point for me, better then I ever could

We can agree to disagree though, for sure. But time will tell and soon all your TPs will belong to me! (Looking at Kafar)

[Devildoc]

I'm going to put a specific example where DPS meters would come into play as something useful for critiquing group members.

We're behind other raids by months, I know, but we're currently learning the Lieutenent of Dol Guldur fight. There is a dps race mechanic in the the first phase of the fight. The longer the first phase goes on because DPS is slow, the more shadow DoT pools will be put on the ground (and as far as I know they don't dissipate until the fight is over), reducing the amount of space you have to work with, and you need quite a bit of space. You need people with the purple eye to be able to move 15m away from the group, and you need a good amount of space for the hunter tank/person with the green eye to kite around the fellbeast.

So slow dps can be detrimental to that fight when you're just learning it. Once you have it on farm perhaps you can compensate and have less than optimal dps, but many people's first kills on the Lieutenent involve stacking half the raid with hunters (as it's not a very melee friendly fight)

So you have 4-6 hunters in the raid.. what are those hunters doing? 1 of them is tanking the fellbeast by kiting in strength stance (you can't let the fellbeast hit you or it stuns you and 2 shots you (and heals itself), so melee tanking it is out). The rest, exclusively DPS unless they get a green eye (forces the fellbeast to target them) and they have to kite. There's no poisons to remove, no adds to fear or trap, literally no other group support, just kite if you have the green eye, move away if you have the purple eye, and pew pew pew.

Now if you have 1 hunter tanking, 2 hunters pushing hard, and 3 hunters slacking, your dps is going to be slow, and you're going to have purple pools all over the place, making the fight harder because the space you can use shrinks. Mind you the person kiting CAN run through 1 pool or so fine, but if they have to run through 3-4 pools that's not fine.

You need to know which hunters need to pick up the pace. Don't give me any garbage about "playing smart" or "other roles". Like I said, aside from the tanking hunter, hunters have only the job of DPS.

We tried letting me come in once since we didn't have enough hunters, normally I can dps very well, but this fight, not very melee friendly, #1 I'm having to chase around a moving target, and when someone's green eye debuff is about to wear off I have to back away because when the green eye wears off he stops and does a proximity check, if you're in melee range he'll chomp you to death before a minstrel can get a heal off (his first hit stuns and snares you, so there's nothing you can do). Furthermore he does this proxiimity check/chomp whenever he stops, which he will to blow a shadow breath on the group and such. So as melee you have to chase after him, get in a few hits, and then back away when he looks like he's going to stop. So my dps becomes pathetic, and it's reflected in how many shadow pools were on the ground. So for at least the time being, I won't let myself burden the group down. Once everyone is comfortable with the fight, the extra pools won't matter so much and you can bring in non optimal classes, but until then you really do need to stack range, and those ranged have to push hard, for optimal dps.