Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[Bradd]

Well I certainly want threat meters a lot more than I want DPS meters. Like I said it's impossible for me to determine a tank's threat vs my threat unless the tank is giving a play by play on his misses/resists.

I understand where you are coming from. I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. In fact, I used 10-15 addons when playing WoW. We couldn't even raid on patch days if all the addons weren't updated. I had so many addons, I had an addon to scan to see when they were updated and then download them (Ace Updater).

Once addons like threat meters become available, any raid member who uses it will have their overall dps/healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). As people see the benefits, more and more people will use the addon and raids will start requiring it. When that happens, the Devs will tune encounters based on the assumption that raids will use the addon. People/raids, who don't use the addon, will be at a huge disadvantage.

That is why I think threat meters would be a problem in LOTRO. It becomes a slippery slope. When an addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. I do not think that is a good thing. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

[Devildoc]

I understand where you are coming from. I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. In fact, I used 10-15 addons when playing WoW. We couldn't even raid on patch days if all the addons weren't updated. I had so many addons, I had an addon to scan to see when they were updated and then download them (Ace Updater).

Once addons like threat meters become available, any raid member who uses it will have their overall dps/healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). As people see the benefits, more and more people will use the addon and raids will start requiring it. When that happens, the Devs will tune encounters based on the assumption that raids will use the addon. People/raids, who don't use the addon, will be at a huge disadvantage.

That is why I think threat meters would be a problem in LOTRO. It becomes a slippery slope. When an addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. I do not think that is a good thing. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

Eh, unless they give champs some more aggro management skills, it's the best option for me.

[Spitefulirony]

One thing at least seems apparent in this thread,

The only thing keeping the LotRO community in check is Turbine. By limiting the number of sticks we have, bruises are kept to a minimum.

"And those who know what's best for us,
Must rise and save us from ourselves." -N. Peart

I used threat and dps meters in WoW. I really thought I'd miss them here, but haven't. If they were released into the game, I'd use them, because they are a great tool for fine tuning and getting the most out of your character.

If they don't that's fine too. It's not like they're needed.


A reworking of the combat log and Cstats would allow us to really look at the fights afterwards, can be used to tune rotations, etc. and would be great, imo.

[myskaal]

To echo sentiments in this thread, I hope we never see dps or threat meters in LOTRO. As a tank, I thought they were necessary in WoW. After a patch, I refused to play until all my add-ons were updated.
I'm finding it much more enjoyable that I have to actually be aware of my own skills and actions. I find it incredibly more engaging that I don't 100% know my optimal 3 button rotation and that the situation could change at any moment.

I agree those tools are useful for personal improvement. Unfortunately that good always turns into bad use.
LOTRO is more fun because I don't have those numbers flashing stats the min/max l33t will use to judge the worthiness of all others.

[Falori]

I'll add another pro DPS meter opinion into the sea of "No, don't do it" posts.

I absolutely love the Recount add-on in WoW. I look at it after every instance run, it shows you so much. Not just DPS and healing (including raw healing, effective healing, over-healing, absorbs), it also shows mana gained(by who and what effect), who cleaned which poison, disease etc. from who, who interrupted, activity levels and more. It shows you the last few seconds before the death of each person, so you can look at what killed the person and if they got heals. It shows you which skills people used, how much damage came from each skill etc.

I just love to look at that stuff, and it is tremendously helpful.

Whoever just looks at DPS or healing misses the full picture. With the right combat log you could pretty much look at the full picture and people wouldn't just be measured by one number (DPS).

I understand the reservations people have, and I can see that people play to the meters. But if the meters show the full picture, that would be less of a concern. And I agree with some poster above who said that if you still kill the boss (faster) with more DPS and ignoring some of your utility spells, then where is the harm?

I also think that this boils down to the group you play with. I am sure DPS meters would be a great addition for my kin, and the positives would much outweigh the negatives.

But, LotRO is a different game and much less raid-centric than WoW. I really came to like add-ons in WoW and would like them in LotRO. But it's not the end of the world if some add-ons were not possible.

I do not like CStats though, it's just clunky. Not by the fault of the CStats developer, of course, but because of Turbine's limitations.

Please at least do the following:

1. Provide better combat logs. Just one example: show the names of healing skills and indicate overhealing. The combat log as it is right now is pitiful.
2. Allow the Lua scripts to see the chat log, so we can have an in-game (personal) combat parser.

I sure can live without group DPS meters, but I sure miss my post-combat relaxing study of Recount.

[Hyetal]

What we need along with DPS/threat/healing/etc meters is a public forum where we can out bad players who aren't hitting the optimum so we know who to accept and who to deny when we put together PUG BG runs. -_-

I also want the add-ons that automatically put in my Gambits for me so I don't have to memorize those tricky patterns for my Warden, I just have to remember the names.

Plus, where can I hire someone to play my guy for me? I can't believe I actually have to play the game... is this the stone age or what? >_<

Opinion registered.

[Grampsaz]

What we need along with DPS/threat/healing/etc meters is a public forum where we can out bad players who aren't hitting the optimum so we know who to accept and who to deny when we put together PUG BG runs. -_-

I also want the add-ons that automatically put in my Gambits for me so I don't have to memorize those tricky patterns for my Warden, I just have to remember the names.

Plus, where can I hire someone to play my guy for me? I can't believe I actually have to play the game... is this the stone age or what? >_<

Opinion registered.

That wasn't an opinion, that was trolling and it sucked.



If everyone in this thread was in beta you would know what the dev has been saying about this protect for some time now and your tune would be quite different.

This was a pet project, done on his own time and he wished he could have pushed out a much broader API then he is. But he's stated several times what his short term goals are for this feature and I hope he's able to find the time and get the support he needs to make it happen.

He's specifically spoken about server access. So Ill let all those smarter then me to explain to everyone else what that (potentially) means.

DPS/Threat meters WILL happen, with in the next year.

[Bradd]

That wasn't an opinion, that was trolling and it sucked.



If everyone in this thread was in beta you would know what the dev has been saying about this protect for some time now and your tune would be quite different.

This was a pet project, done on his own time and he wished he could have pushed out a much broader API then he is. But he's stated several times what his short term goals are for this feature and I hope he's able to find the time and get the support he needs to make it happen.

He's specifically spoken about server access. So Ill let all those smarter then me to explain to everyone else what that (potentially) means.

DPS/Threat meters WILL happen, with in the next year.

Hopefully, they will see how much harm they will do and reconsider.

[mjk47]

That wasn't an opinion, that was trolling and it sucked.

I think you had an SoH failure.

What we need along with DPS/threat/healing/etc meters is a public forum where we can out bad players who aren't hitting the optimum so we know who to accept and who to deny when we put together PUG BG runs. -_-

I also want the add-ons that automatically put in my Gambits for me so I don't have to memorize those tricky patterns for my Warden, I just have to remember the names.

Plus, where can I hire someone to play my guy for me? I can't believe I actually have to play the game... is this the stone age or what? >_<

Opinion registered.

I think his tongue was so far into his cheek that he would have been mumbling!

[Githyuknuklukfunguy]

What we need along with DPS/threat/healing/etc meters is a public forum where we can out bad players who aren't hitting the optimum so we know who to accept and who to deny when we put together PUG BG runs. -_-

I also want the add-ons that automatically put in my Gambits for me so I don't have to memorize those tricky patterns for my Warden, I just have to remember the names.

Plus, where can I hire someone to play my guy for me? I can't believe I actually have to play the game... is this the stone age or what? >_<

Opinion registered.

nice opinion. made sense, drove the point home with satire. valid.

That wasn't an opinion, that was trolling and it sucked.



If everyone in this thread was in beta you would know what the dev has been saying about this protect for some time now and your tune would be quite different.

unfortunately some condescending and tiresome beta testers that have been around a while think they can push their weight around with the claim of trolling...when posts are actually valid. these same beta testers seem to think they were the only ones in beta and see lua scripting through rose-coloured lenses, ignoring the negative reaction that came along with it there, as in here.

spreading misinformation should be the job of marketing teams, not beta testers.

[SaintBass]

That wasn't an opinion, that was trolling and it sucked.

[FyreBrand]

What we need along with DPS/threat/healing/etc meters is a public forum where we can out bad players who aren't hitting the optimum so we know who to accept and who to deny when we put together PUG BG runs. -_-

I also want the add-ons that automatically put in my Gambits for me so I don't have to memorize those tricky patterns for my Warden, I just have to remember the names.

Plus, where can I hire someone to play my guy for me? I can't believe I actually have to play the game... is this the stone age or what? >_<

Opinion registered.

Too bad, but you won't get that functionality out of Lua scripting, parsing, meters, or any other addon functionality Turbine adds. They like a fun game and have worked hard to make one.

If you're looking for that kind of functionality and the community that will treat you poorly and out you, try World of Warcraft.

If you're looking for a game that has built in threat meters, parsers, and ui modding that have added a lot to the game try Everquest II.

If you're looking for a fun game where the devs try and add features to enhance players enjoyment while preventing exploitation then stick around and enjoy this game.

[Bradd]

If you're looking for a fun game where the devs try and add features to enhance players enjoyment while preventing exploitation then stick around and enjoy this game.

If that is true, then they will not be adding dps meters, threat meters, or boss mods. Time will tell how serious they are about maintaining the intergrity of the game.

[Harry2]

Beta tester here who spoke against the LuA scripting, and was overrun by the cheering of the few who were adamantly for it.

Prior personal experience with dps meters and such has colored my opinion, I have no problem saying.

UI mods, I personally have no problem with, as long as regular Turbine users get mostly the same benefits through Turbine's own UI.

When the meters and mods start steering the game though, there is a huge problem. This takes the course from Turbine, if they aren't careful. Thankfully the original programmers saw this, and purposefully limited acess. Let's hope current programmers will look at this sage wisdom, and think outside the box.

[FyreBrand]

If that is true, then they will not be adding dps meters, threat meters, or boss mods. Time will tell how serious they are about maintaining the intergrity of the game.

Remember, this isn't WoW. Just because something happens in WoW doesn't mean that is how it works in every other game.

Time has already shown they are interested in creating a fun engaging game environment. We have experienced a lot of changes, many before November, 2009 and many since then. Even if they did add some sort of advanced parsing or threat determination I expect it would add to the game environment not detract from it. Just because Blizzard failed at this, doesn't mean Turbine has to.

[strcpy]

If that is true, then they will not be adding dps meters, threat meters, or boss mods. Time will tell how serious they are about maintaining the intergrity of the game.

I've never really understood the resistance to a threat meter. I can certainly understand with respect to a DPS meter (many of us are *not* dps oriented and having one makes too many people focus on that) or boss mods (Eh? Isn't that the devs responsibility?).

However even take the worst case scenario - a poor tank and a poor nuker. It would allow the party to still let the tank be the top of the list and everyone follow suit instead of having to "learn" as you go along with a new tank. For that low ability hunter (or RK too) it would mean they could not only have a "feel" for where they are but actually know.

I just do not see any class or instance where it would be detrimental to their play. I guess from a pure RP point of view it would do so, but we aren't remotely in any pure RP point of view (we do not even have an official RP server - which given how lore based this game still surprises me. If DAOC had one I can't see why LOTRO doesn't), there are MUCH more RP breaking game mechanics out there. The only "issue" I see is that it brings the have nots closer to the haves (that is those that can't get a fell for group content can visually see it and not have to get a feel for where they are) but I do not see that as a bad thing.

I can't think of any of the lua mods I'm interested enough to do, but a threat meter would be glorious. It would be on my LM, Hunter, and Warden for much the same reasons - it would reduce the amount of "feel" I have to learn. I guess for some that blows, for others not so much.

[Genocide98]

No way. That is one big reason why I left WoW. DPS meters made WoW seem more like keeping up a quota on damage. Got to the point to where it wasn't fun anymore. I really hope we never see this feature in this game.

i really hope we do see it

[Bradd]

I've never really understood the resistance to a threat meter. I can certainly understand with respect to a DPS meter (many of us are *not* dps oriented and having one makes too many people focus on that) or boss mods (Eh? Isn't that the devs responsibility?).

However even take the worst case scenario - a poor tank and a poor nuker. It would allow the party to still let the tank be the top of the list and everyone follow suit instead of having to "learn" as you go along with a new tank. For that low ability hunter (or RK too) it would mean they could not only have a "feel" for where they are but actually know.

I just do not see any class or instance where it would be detrimental to their play. I guess from a pure RP point of view it would do so, but we aren't remotely in any pure RP point of view (we do not even have an official RP server - which given how lore based this game still surprises me. If DAOC had one I can't see why LOTRO doesn't), there are MUCH more RP breaking game mechanics out there. The only "issue" I see is that it brings the have nots closer to the haves (that is those that can't get a fell for group content can visually see it and not have to get a feel for where they are) but I do not see that as a bad thing.

I can't think of any of the lua mods I'm interested enough to do, but a threat meter would be glorious. It would be on my LM, Hunter, and Warden for much the same reasons - it would reduce the amount of "feel" I have to learn. I guess for some that blows, for others not so much.

I used a Threat Meter when raiding in WoW. Having a working threat meter allowed me to pump out the maximum amount of healing, while staying just below the tank in aggro. It required no thought, required no skill. As soon as you are close to getting aggro, a light flashes on your screen to warn you. For me, addons like this take away from the fun and challenge, the computer starts playing the game, and we become drones pushing whatever button it suggests.

In addition, groups who use threat meters will have their overall dps and healing output increased (since you know exactly how much you can do without getting aggro). You don't have to think about controling your aggro, the mod does all the thinking for you and allows you to stay just below the aggro line. This will trivialize content for raids that use the meters, and potentially force the Devs to increase the difficulty to compensate. Groups that do not use the meters will then be facing content with little chance of success.

When any addon is so useful it makes content easier, then it basically becomes required for everyone. Raids will require people to have certain addons to come. People will get so used to having the mods they can't play without them. I have seen it time and time again in WoW. People would not even bother to log in on patch days until all their addons were updated. I do not want to get to the point where I have to download/update 10-15 addons again just to raid.

Once these type addons are implemented and become common, one of two things will happen:
Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them, or
People will quickly become bored because the instances are easy with the mods, and demand more and more end-game content as a result.

[Wisdomandlore]

I've never really understood the resistance to a threat meter. I can certainly understand with respect to a DPS meter (many of us are *not* dps oriented and having one makes too many people focus on that) or boss mods (Eh? Isn't that the devs responsibility?).

However even take the worst case scenario - a poor tank and a poor nuker. It would allow the party to still let the tank be the top of the list and everyone follow suit instead of having to "learn" as you go along with a new tank. For that low ability hunter (or RK too) it would mean they could not only have a "feel" for where they are but actually know.

I just do not see any class or instance where it would be detrimental to their play. I guess from a pure RP point of view it would do so, but we aren't remotely in any pure RP point of view (we do not even have an official RP server - which given how lore based this game still surprises me. If DAOC had one I can't see why LOTRO doesn't), there are MUCH more RP breaking game mechanics out there. The only "issue" I see is that it brings the have nots closer to the haves (that is those that can't get a fell for group content can visually see it and not have to get a feel for where they are) but I do not see that as a bad thing.

I can't think of any of the lua mods I'm interested enough to do, but a threat meter would be glorious. It would be on my LM, Hunter, and Warden for much the same reasons - it would reduce the amount of "feel" I have to learn. I guess for some that blows, for others not so much.

My problem with a threat meter is that it reduces another aspect of the game into watching a bar. Part of the fun of the game is learning your group's strengths and weaknesses, and then trying to push past that while still keeping threat on the tank. If you know exactly where your threat is, then it's just easy. I'm just watching a bar, and slacking off on DPS or healing when I get to high. /yawn

[Asperity]

My problem with a threat meter is that it reduces another aspect of the game into watching a bar. Part of the fun of the game is learning your group's strengths and weaknesses, and then trying to push past that while still keeping threat on the tank. If you know exactly where your threat is, then it's just easy. I'm just watching a bar, and slacking off on DPS or healing when I get to high. /yawn

As I stated before, if content is designed properly, you shouldn't be able to stare at the bar. Any content that permits you to take your attention off of what is happening in the fight and focus it elsewhere, it is trivial content even before the effects of meters.

You couldn't play to the meters on fights like Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, or Putricide because they were designed in such a way that the player had to be aware at all times. Read and react was the most crucial element of those fights.

[Grampsaz]

Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them, or
People will quickly become bored because the instances are easy with the mods, and demand more and more end-game content as a result.

With all due respect to the devs that bust their asses putting out raid content in this game, I say this. Raids in this game are already gimmicky. They are a stripped dumbed down version of the raids in SoA (Even Hell)

Right now if you have enough dps and enough corruption removal you can win. Period. Thats not clever design IMO. Where as before content and bosses were based on scripted events and pathing and each boss had something where a class was able to shine.

IF we ever get back to the old school type of raid content then I think DPS/Threat meters could be warrented. But I'll be honest here, with current dumbed down stack dps stack corruption removals a DPS/Threat meter would no be warrented.

Look, I dont want dumbed down content. The game is too easy now. None of the current raid content is hard its just unforgiving. But I really really dont want a mod that makes say the Lt. fight a joke. If a 'corruption boss mod' ships and it tells us when a corruption needs to be removed and who's turn it is to remove it then we are going to have issues.

BUT if they had say, the Balrog with his current skill set, with his current phase changes AND corruptions, then any of the three mods I've mentioned would be warranted.

I hope some of that makes sense. I just think that certain mods in the current 'type' of content would be pretty broken. I'll give you all that. But give us new raids withi old raid design with new raid corruptions and we've got something.

[ArahadEketta]

I don't want to see meters in this game (especially meters that measure others not just yourself.) Turbine learned from Asheron's Call and the use of Decal. In AC the use of Decal was in of it's self not bad. In fact in many cases it was very helpful. However, it was Decal (and AC Explorer) that brought about the advent of the UCM (Unattended Combat Macro) and also ACM (Attended Combat Macro) plugin's. The ACM plugin's were not all that bad since they primarily allowed those of us with Life, Creature and Item Magic Schools to be able to buff ourselves and fellows with just one click of a button instead of many multiples. It could take up to 5 minutes manually buff yourself with lv 7 buffs (that lasted for one hour.) However, these plugin's could also cause major trivialization of content in game. There were in most Monarchies and in the centers of most major towns in the game what we called Buff Bots. These were characters set up by other players to buff other characters with lv 7 spells. This made ALL low to middle level content a snoozefest to anyone who could afford to pay one of these Buff Bots. It also pretty much required that to do any high level content that you HAD to be fully buffed. This is the equivalent to requiring all lv 65's in LotRO to have 120 Rad and lv 65 Second Age LI's for ALL content in game. Oh, and popping a top tier hope token for a full time hope buff every time the timer ran out or got wiped.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

Who said anything about requiring anyone to buy it? If I'm a raid leader and I want to use a DPS add-on to make sure your not sucking it up, that doesn't mean you gotta run out to buy it. Though I know you will, because I'll make it my mission to call you out every single run

Your own statement gives the truth to the lie, simile face not withstanding.

[Bradd]

As I stated before, if content is designed properly, you shouldn't be able to stare at the bar. Any content that permits you to take your attention off of what is happening in the fight and focus it elsewhere, it is trivial content even before the effects of meters.

You couldn't play to the meters on fights like Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, or Putricide because they were designed in such a way that the player had to be aware at all times. Read and react was the most crucial element of those fights.

Threat meters do not require you to stare at a bar. In WoW, I had mine set to sound an alarm and tint the screen red when I hit 95% of the tanks aggro (which meant it was time for an aggro dump). I could watch the fight and still maintain maximun output - without having to bother thinking about it (which is the point of addons like this - not having to think for yourself).

You are able to pump out more damage or more healing with threat meters, trivializing content for people using the meters. As I indicated before, that will cause one of two things to occur:
Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them (making raids too hard for people not using the mods), or
People using the mods will quickly become bored because the instances are easy (because of the mods), and demand more and more end-game content as a result.

[Devildoc]

Threat meters do not require you to stare at a bar. In WoW, I had mine set to sound an alarm and tint the screen red when I hit 95% of the tanks aggro (which meant it was time for an aggro dump). I could watch the fight and still maintain maximun output - without having to bother thinking about it (which is the point of addons like this - not having to think for yourself).

You are able to pump out more damage or more healing with threat meters, trivializing content for people using the meters. As I indicated before, that will cause one of two things to occur:
Either the Devs will make raids more difficult (or more gimmicky) under the assumption that most people are using them (making them too hard for people not using the mods), or
People using the mods will quickly become bored because the instances are easy (because of the mods), and demand more and more end-game content as a result.

Because "thinking for yourself" can tell you exactly how often the tank is being resisted or missing right?

You cannot judge your threat vs a tank's threat without a tank giving a play by play, or a meter. When mobs are all higher level than you, and with gloom giving -skill levels and all that, resists and b/p/e and misses are the name of the game. You can try to estimate how much threat they're dealing by watching their skill rotations and adjusting yourself, but if your hits are landing and their skills are being resisted, you're just guessing.