Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[findorin-gilrain]

Why have people suggested that threat/dps meters makes the game do the thinking for you, takes all skill out of the game, but yet we have plugins now that pop a UI box in your face telling you what type of pot you should take Wound/power/ect

Why haven't ppl put up a fuss about a UI flashing on your screen telling you how much time is left on a buff/debuff you have?

Shouldn't those be as concerning to you all?

No it's not the same at all and so that doesn't concern me.

[findorin-gilrain]

If we get widespread use of meters Turbine will have to actually start balancing classes, so I'm not expecting them any time soon. It's one thing to have a handful of people in the forums comparing logs via cstats. It's another thing entirely when the disparity is apparent to everyone.

They are all balanced. Everyone can solo to cap. Everyone can be useful in 95% of group content. There is maybe 5% of group content when any one class may be less desirable but it is different in each case. Even then it can be worked around by going with something less than "optimal". I regularly play every class at cap except Warden. Most of them were at cap before MoM. I see no real balance issues but maybe I am a better player (my personal meter tells me so and we know meters always tell the whole story, eh?)

Unless you mean PvMP? I have no time for those who whinge about balance there.

[rocketeer8015]

Im against Threat/DPS meters because it brings our gameplay so much closer to WoW.

If we get those we are just another step closer to playing WoW with different classes/abilities. I know people cant see when the tank gets parries/dodges, and that you could/will accidently draw aggro due to it. But imho thats just an convenient excuse, just look at the mobs healthbar and dont lay into a mob that a tank is attacking while it has 100% hp.

One of the most annoying things for a tank is people not giving us just a couple seconds to get a few good hits in. I absolutely hate having to use my taunts early in the fight because a DD thinks he has to shave of 5 seconds of the instance run(and cant even do that on my warden). Give me the proper time and safe both of us the use of our aggro modifying abilities early on in the fight. Then they will be ready for those times later in the fight when the tank cant keep up with your aggro and its no problem and the instance run will be more rewarding for all of us.

If your honestly worried about aggro generating abilities of tanks failing to land it would make far more sense to ask for the threat component of these abilities to be unable to miss. Fact is having to watch your aggro or guessing your threat is one of the defining gameplay features of LotRO. Tanking in WoW was boring, just a glance at the threadmeter and i knew where i stood and could slack off/be bored the rest of the fight. In LotRO i never know, i could be miles ahead or walking a razors edge, which makes it far more exciting imho.

I think what divides people so strongly on this is that there is no middleway. There either are such tools and they will be used, or there are not and they wont. People opposing this feel they are in the right because your demanding a change which will adversely affect them(take uncertainity out of fights, less fun).

And lastly, if we look at something that works well/is cherised in WoW, where do we draw the line? Their BGs are liked aswell, how about arena or flying mounts? Need a port of the healbot addon maybe?

[Asperity]

No it's not the same at all and so that doesn't concern me.

How is it not the same? Please explain.

[KenR]

Why have people suggested that threat/dps meters makes the game do the thinking for you, takes all skill out of the game, but yet we have plugins now that pop a UI box in your face telling you what type of pot you should take Wound/power/ect

Why haven't ppl put up a fuss about a UI flashing on your screen telling you how much time is left on a buff/debuff you have?

Shouldn't those be as concerning to you all?

I'm guessing because most people don't know about them.

Although these are just taking information you already have displayed and displaying it differently. A group DPS/Threat meter is new information.

[findorin-gilrain]

How is it not the same? Please explain.

Well if you mean a UI element flashing up how long a buff or debuff lasts, it is no more information than we have now, just presented differently. I for one think we could play perfectly well without that timer as long as the content is balanced for it. I would always expect to know I had a wound on me though - unlike in real life I can't feel it in this game so something has to tell me. But I have never heard anyone at all suggest that is a bad thing to know how long a wound will last.

It is a marker for an individual combat (or non-combat) event, just as the sound and animation telling me my bog-guardian has flanked, yet again, or an icon telling me how long my prelude to hope pulses will last.

An UI element telling me which sort of pot to use, and presenting it to me to click on, is a crutch and should not be encouraged but again at the end of the day it tells me nothing I did not already know. In fact I can only see this as a hindrance and nuisance.

As for a meter, a meter is clearly something different. How on earth can anyone seriously think it is the same? It is a continuing parsing of numbers to give a rate and/or accumulation of results like any meter and that is simply not the same. It is not something I can possibly know in the heat of combat although using a tool like yours I can analyse it afterwards if I am really that sad.

In addition I have never seen, in this or any other game, people of less experience and/or skill being belittled by those with elitist attitudes for having a wound or fear effect on them. For not coming up to some arbitrary and fun-sucking meter rating or score in a virtual fight in a virtual game - this I have seen people belittled and humiliated over, kicked from groups, etc.

[Grampsaz]

A fair point.

Since I haven't tried out any of the LUA thingies that people have written (not even the buff/debuff one written by a good friend), can I still speak out against DPS and threat meters?

Of course
BTW the Buffbars is absolutely amazing and your friend is extremely talented, it changes the way I play the game and i wont play with out it.

No it's not the same at all and so that doesn't concern me.

DPS/Threat meters dont concern me one bit.

But to my previous point, Buffbars changes the way you play the game. There is no otherway to explain the effect this addon has on one's game play.

Shouldn't that be the baseline of comparison with these addon's? IF they change the way you play or they dont? I mean, if we have an addon that puts all your bags into one big one does that change they way you play the game? No it doesn't. Does a new custom UI that has all ports in a one clean neat area change they way you play? No, but its extremely nice to have.

Buffbars, threat, dps, these types of meters change they way you play, thus they should all be treated the same.

Vanilla statements such as "We will be closer to WoW" doesn't serve anyone any benefit because its just a personal preference. Step out of the whoa is me I'm a WoW victim bubble (not you specifically just generalizing) and be grown up about it. Does the designed intent of the LUA Addon generally effect each player the same way? Does it change the way you play?

Buffbars and they many other Plugins to come down the pipe in the next few months are no different then DPS/Threat. I'm glad we have them, I grateful to the ppl that write them, they make my experience in game better.

[Bradd]

Unless I am missing something (I am not in beta), the buff bars don't show any information that is not already displayed. If I mouse over the icons under my character, I see the duration of my buffs and debuffs. So, I do not see that as a problem at all. UI addons, that merely change how things are displayed are fine in my opinion.

The addon that pops up what pot you need to use, if that is what it does, is going too far. An addon should never tell you what to do or when to do it.

Neither of those, however, is as detrimental as dps and threat meters. Both provide information not available to those who do not use them (everyone's dps and everyone's threat).

DPS meters cause harm, in large part, based on the negative actions of other players. I realize this is a subjective opinion, based solely on my 10+ years of playing MMOs. Unless human nature has changed dramaically in the past few months, I expect the same negative consequences if they are allowed in LOTRO.

Threat meters are even worse than DPS meters in my opinion, becuase they provide information that is given no other way. Raids with threat meters would have a huge advantage over raids that do not use them. They also take away the skill of aggro manangement, bascially dumb down raiding, and would eventually lead to the Devs having to increase raid difficulty..

[findorin-gilrain]

Of course
BTW the Buffbars is absolutely amazing and your friend is extremely talented, it changes the way I play the game and i wont play with out it.

DPS/Threat meters dont concern me one bit.

I'm still not clear why they don't. At best they reduce the game to boring number watching - minstrels often get tired of this anyway but at least everyone could be in the same spot! At worst, they are for those who feel the need to be able to cast scorn and derision on "lesser" players. And future content would need to be balanced to take their use into account.

But to my previous point, Buffbars changes the way you play the game. There is no otherway to explain the effect this addon has on one's game play.

Shouldn't that be the baseline of comparison with these addon's? IF they change the way you play or they dont?...Buffbars, threat, dps, these types of meters change they way you play, thus they should all be treated the same.

Yes they should and none should be allowed IMHO. However those which show only currently available information about single combat events, and present it differently, are far less of a concern than meters.

Vanilla statements such as "We will be closer to WoW" doesn't serve anyone any benefit because its just a personal preference. Step out of the whoa is me I'm a WoW victim bubble (not you specifically just generalizing) and be grown up about it. Does the designed intent of the LUA Addon generally effect each player the same way? Does it change the way you play?

Not relevant. All UI "improvements" are either pure cosmetic (colours and themes for example) or change the way you play (quickslot layout, less clutter, repositioned or resized elements etc. This is completely besides the point of a discusion on meters.

Buffbars and they many other Plugins to come down the pipe in the next few months are no different then DPS/Threat. I'm glad we have them, I grateful to the ppl that write them, they make my experience in game better.

Yes they are different. Very different. I am at a loss why for some reason you need this crutch to play the game. I don't.

That is merely one aspect of the argument. Would you support a DPS meter that shows you your own dps but nobody elses? Do you simply need to see how much dps you are doing and therefore be able to experiment with rotations and other min-maxing stuff? Or do you actually have the need to be able to compare yourself to others in real-time and therefore be able to berate them or e-peen over them?

[Grampsaz]

Unless I am missing something (I am not in beta), the buff bars don't show any information that is not already displayed. If I mouse over the icons under my character, I see the duration of my buffs and debuffs. So, I do not see that as a problem at all. UI addons, that merely change how things are displayed are fine in my opinion.

But is it just that simple? It doesn't merely change how things are displayed, it changes them in such a way that it drastically changes the way you play the game. I wont play with out it.

The addon that pops up what pot you need to use, if that is what it does, is going too far. An addon should never tell you what to do or when to do it.

Thats exactly what it does, its amazing and I love it. If your a hunter and you get a poison then instead of a poison pot popping up you can make it so Purge Poison pops up instead. If a fear pops up on your Hunter then a fear pot pops up and then you get the cooldown of your fear pot shown for you at the top of the debuff bar.

Neither of those, however, is as detrimental as dps and threat meters. Both provide information not available to those who do not use them (everyone's dps and everyone's threat).

They change the way you play the game. Your past experiences hold no more weight then mine. I've always had excellent experiences with them, I'll wave the dps/threat meter banner every chance I get. But, when its all said and done that doesn't mean squat. This is a different game with a different community and most importantly, we have no idea how they will work in this game, what features they will block or when it will launch. But they will!

DPS meters cause harm, in large part, based on the negative actions of other players. I realize this is a subjective opinion, based solely on my 10+ years of playing MMOs. Threat meters, provide threat information not available to players who do not use them (both your own threat and everyone else's threat). They give a huge advantage over raids that do not use them.

Your absolutely right, it is a subjective opinion. I can only hope that the rest of the victims of DPS/Threat meters can keep that in mind as we get closer to a DPS/Threat meter being made.

2 things to add.

1-This isnt' a raiding game
2-I dont mean victim in a derogatory way, so please dont think of it that way. I just couldn't come up with a better way to explain what I mean.

[Grampsaz]

I'm still not clear why they don't. At best they reduce the game to boring number watching - minstrels often get tired of this anyway but at least everyone could be in the same spot! At worst, they are for those who feel the need to be able to cast scorn and derision on "lesser" players. And future content would need to be balanced to take their use into account.

Content is balanced with one thing. Radiance/Gloom. No dps meter nor a threat meter can overcome the that balance mechanic.

Yes they should and none should be allowed IMHO. However those which show only currently available information about single combat events, and present it differently, are far less of a concern than meters.

To each their own.


Not relevant. All UI "improvements" are either pure cosmetic (colours and themes for example) or change the way you play (quickslot layout, less clutter, repositioned or resized elements etc. This is completely besides the point of a discusion on meters.

Totally relevant. If they change they way YOU play then they should all be treated the same. Your cherry picking, Addons either change they way you play or they dont. Period.


Yes they are different. Very different. I am at a loss why for some reason you need this crutch to play the game. I don't.

I'm not going to get into a personal attack argument with you, so I'll just leave this part of the discussion for you to have with yourself.

That is merely one aspect of the argument. Would you support a DPS meter that shows you your own dps but nobody elses? Do you simply need to see how much dps you are doing and therefore be able to experiment with rotations and other min-maxing stuff? Or do you actually have the need to be able to compare yourself to others in real-time and therefore be able to berate them or e-peen over them?

Absolutely I would support a dps meter that shows my own dps in real time with out a third party application.
But I would prefer the later.

Dont assume I'm gong to berate anyone or e-peen over anyone. I'm a raid leader for my kinship, but anyone of my kinmates can say with out any hesitation that I dont ever do either of those things. We aren't that type of kinship. IF I ever did, I would have several officers and kinmates putting me in my place.
Just because you were hurt in a previous kinship/guild doesn't mean all raid leaders and kinships are the same.

Stop playing the victim advocate roll. You have no idea how ppl will use them in this game, you have no idea how kinship leaders or raid leaders will use them in this game or if they will even use them at all.

Not all kins are the same, not all raid leaders are the same. I've never booted a player out of group for sucking, I'm not in the type of kin that does that type of stuff. We have a zero tolerance for E-Peening in kin aswell. Someone things they are the best, they will be put in place very quickly.

[nirsul]

Of course
... snip ...
Shouldn't that be the baseline of comparison with these addon's? IF they change the way you play or they dont? I mean, if we have an addon that puts all your bags into one big one does that change they way you play the game? No it doesn't. Does a new custom UI that has all ports in a one clean neat area change they way you play? No, but its extremely nice to have.

...snip ....

Actually, no "it changes the way YOU play" isn't the metric to use. That standard implies that the only effect on any add-on is personal. If you were right about this, it'd therefore be up to each individual to decided what's acceptable for them to use.

However, that standard is flat out wrong. It ignores the social consequences of various kinds of add-ons, which is one of the points against them. Much like the dev who decided LUA scripting would be a good thing to tinker with on his own, because it's cool or useful to him or whatever, it blindly ignores the unintended (mainly social) drawbacks of these kinds of things.

Simply put, explain how and why an add-on which displays the exact same info as currently available about a fear effect (for example) is displayed will adversely effect anything in a group? What, it means that now no one's going to have to say "X, fear" in VC? Oh wait, that won't change. And again, any one going to be judged about not removing that in a way they aren't right now (for example, because they don't carry potions to remove said effects in dungeons?).

OTOH, explain how and why a DPS or more importantly a threat meter that displays everyone ELSE's info won't be used by large numbers of people who IMO are very mediocre or worse players (while somehow thinking they're leet) to determine who they get to think of as "fail"? Pinheaded players are judgemental all the time (judging on things like virtue levels, morale levels or whatever is common) CURRENTLY; tools like DPS and threat meters just take that stupidity to the next level.

And TBH, they're not needed. I've been baffled by DD's wanting one. In THIS game a threat meter, even if it gave you real time info, would pretty much be pointless. First, even if you had the info per se, there's almost nothing you can do about it with most classes that you're not ALREADY doing. Threat dumping? Use a single skill or slow down; you are or ought to be doing that NOW. The only difference is now you're doing it proactively versus reactively with a meter if you're any good.

Second, assuming you have a competent healer, just about anyone who can grab aggro can tank for a bit againt the vast majority of fights here (RKs, probably least of all unless they can kite). Where they can't is high end bosses, wherein the fights last long enough (5+ minutes) that assuming you have any brains you know how to maintain your aggro. And with some of those fights it's simply tough to manage aggro because of the mechanics, and again there's not a lot a threat meter would tell you that you shouldn't already know to do.

So let's see: if you're any good, you don't need them HERE. And by "good" I mean open-minded and adaptable enough to learn the different ways to handle various fights and your class, rather than "I put out tons of DPS" defining good. And they'll be used by morons (the kind that currently exist here despite the idea that this community is somehow "better" than most MMO ones TBH) to discriminate against and belittle other players (ie, they have negative social effects). So, why given that balance would Turbine be dumb enough to allow them?

Oh yes, because they're hoping to get an influx of ex-WoWites with F2P who are addicted to the EZ mode that add-ons make WoW. Never mind ....

[KenR]

Thats exactly what it does, its amazing and I love it. If your a hunter and you get a poison then instead of a poison pot popping up you can make it so Purge Poison pops up instead. If a fear pops up on your Hunter then a fear pot pops up and then you get the cooldown of your fear pot shown for you at the top of the debuff bar.

Sounds more annoying than useful. I mean I have those skills/pots already on my quickslot. If I want to pot something I just click them. The key point here is IF. Since the Devs at turbine think spamming you with debuffs equals fun or equals a challenge 99% of the time it's not worth your effort to use a pot as you just get debuffed again a 1/4 second later. Other times it's important to remove the correct debuff. Blowing your CD on a 5 common damage every 5 secs for 20 sec wound will get you killed if the same fight has 1000 damage per second poisons. Multiple debuffs happen all the time, you need to cure the right kind at the right time. A popup with a single pot showing a single debuff doesn't give you that information. Conveniently enough the standard UI gives you all the debuffs at once and a way to click any of the 4 curatives. Well actually 8 curatives now with the store bought ones having their own timers.

/tangent

[Gedachtnis]

BuffBars doesn't think for the player. It doesn't go 'OMG you haz a wound, here use this now Jimmy!"

It allows you to set up a number of quickslots and place them where you want them. Then you place either a skill or a potion in that quickslot. Now it fades the quickslot until you get a wound, fear, etc. at which point it makes the quickslot visible.

The only thing it has done that can't be done right now before Beta Launch is make a quickslot visible without pressing alt/ctrl/shift.

You can currently take a quickbar, you can place it where you want, you can put a skill or potion on it, you can hide it, and you can make it visible when you want to (by pressing alt/ctrl/shift).

The result, an extra visual que, that's the size of a quickslot, and more importantly, more clear screen space!

And just to clarify, if you put a Poison potion in the quickslot where you'd like your Wound potion to be, when you get a wound, that handy poison pot is going to be there grinning at you.

Cyberdyne isn't taking over.

[Falori]

There's no guarantee that a meter would be better at it, though. If the meter is accessing the same information that CStats is, it'd have the same limitations and drawbacks. If you guys (meaning the pro-meter camp) really want to have better analysis tools, you should be asking for a more robust (or at least more accurate) data set for CStats rather than an in-game display.

I mentioned that before.

Please at least do the following:

1. Provide better combat logs. Just one example: show the names of healing skills and indicate overhealing. The combat log as it is right now is pitiful.
2. Allow the Lua scripts to see the chat log, so we can have an in-game (personal) combat parser.

Some other poster proposed to dump the information somewhere and make accessible via some API for both Lua scripting and third party outside tools. That would be just as good as a better combat log. But either way, I really hope Turbine gives us some way to really get all the combat information we need. Blocks, parries, evades, proper skill-names, over-heals, DoT origins etc.

[Bradd]

This is a different game with a different community and most importantly, we have no idea how they will work in this game, what features they will block or when it will launch. But they will!

In regard to the community, it is possible that one of the reasons the LOTRO cummunity is different (and better in my opinion), is because we don't meters which invarably cause problems?

I can only hope that the rest of the victims of DPS/Threat meters can keep that in mind as we get closer to a DPS/Threat meter being made.

As I indicated previously in this thread, I was never a victim of the meters per se. I saw how they were being misused, and decided that the best solution was to play to the meters, I topped the heal meter on most raids. I had my threat meter set to sound an alarm and tint my screen red whenever I got to 95% of the tank's threat (allowing me to heal without having to worry about threat). You don't have to be a victim to see how detrimental they are. They lead to friction between players, and to people playing to the meters instead of playing smart.

Again, you make it sound like it is inevitable that we will be subjected to meters in LOTRO, Why are you so sure?


Finally, I notice the advocates of meters do not seem to address the major concerns with threat meters:
1) They take away the skill of aggro manangement and dumb down raiding.
2) They allow people to pump out more DPS and more healing, causing the content to be easier for any raid using one. Once this happens, either people will complete content sooner growing bored, or the Devs will make the content harder (making it too difficult for raids who don't use the meters).


I think most of us agree that the harm of meters far outweighs the benefits. I hope Turbine is listening.

[Hakon_Stormbrow]

BuffBars doesn't think for the player. It doesn't go 'OMG you haz a wound, here use this now Jimmy!"

It allows you to set up a number of quickslots and place them where you want them. Then you place either a skill or a potion in that quickslot. Now it fades the quickslot until you get a wound, fear, etc. at which point it makes the quickslot visible.

The only thing it has done that can't be done right now before Beta Launch is make a quickslot visible without pressing alt/ctrl/shift.

You can currently take a quickbar, you can place it where you want, you can put a skill or potion on it, you can hide it, and you can make it visible when you want to (by pressing alt/ctrl/shift).

The result, an extra visual que, that's the size of a quickslot, and more importantly, more clear screen space!

And just to clarify, if you put a Poison potion in the quickslot where you'd like your Wound potion to be, when you get a wound, that handy poison pot is going to be there grinning at you.

Cyberdyne isn't taking over.

Is it also possible to have that bar show up when you break a certain morale threshhold?

I have my morale pots and wound pots all on one bar, so it would be nice if it would also show up when i fall below 20% morale or somesuch. unless i misunderstand and only a single slot is being turned on and off...

[rocketeer8015]

I have raided in WoW before threat/dps meter became common, and i raided in WoW after they became common. It changed the game and not for the better imho. People getting kicked out of raids because they did 3% less damage than others, classes banned completely, i have seen it all.

I dont want this constant pressure to get better, be optimal or having to compare myself constantly to others(and even if you dont install these addon, your group/raid members will make sure to shove these numbers down your throat). This is a game, not a job. And i play to relax, not to get a rating at the end of each instance by my class supervisor.

And the old argument "not all people are like that" is getting old really fast imho, its the universal excuse to get whatever you want. You can always claim that there are some saints or even normal people around that wont misuse something, doesnt mean that those few who would misuse it wont do a hell of a lot of damage in the meanwhile though. Its like saying we dont need to fix exploits because our players wouldnt abuse them, its untrue and we all know it. The majority of us are not saints, and depending on the day we are not even very nice people.

DPS/Threat meters are not necessary. They are convenient. They make raids go 5 min faster because everyone can be at his limit, they help you weed out classes that do 5% less damage than others(@Raidleader, throw out all hunters, the RKs are doing 5% more damage each). They will create a bonefire of class complaints and whining. If you get shown every raid that your class is weaker you will complain, alot. They also make the game easier.

Have you all really thought this through what it would mean for class balance? Turbine will have to justify why RKs do X% more or less than hunters, Champions will complain about Loremasters AOE, Guardians will be up in arms over the TPS of Wardens etc. I have seen it in WoW, and look where it took us. I have seen the early days of DPS meters, whole classes being exempt from raids because everyone could see they underperformed etc. It only changed slowly and over many months when blizzard slowly made all classes being equally good DDs, all tanks equally good at AOE threat, removed any need for CC etc. In turn special abilities got axed to preserve balance. These meters wouldnt work the same in LotRO as they work in todays WoW, they would work like they did in pre-BC WoW and it was hell for the non pure classes.



Sorry for the rant, but i feel strongly about this. I honestly believe this would not end in just a couple players getting better with their chars, or having smoother instance runs. And i also believe this is not something we could sit out by just avoiding the addons personally, it would change the game as we know it because it would change the perception of the majority of players. Also i really dislike the idea of making the game even more easier.

[findorin-gilrain]

I have raided in WoW before threat/dps meter became common, ...stuff....

From the heart, and all the better for it.

[Devildoc]

No it's not the same at all and so that doesn't concern me.

LOL

You
are
out
to
lunch
dude.

The addon he's talking about, displays your buffs/debuffs in little bars, that diminish as the buffs are expiring, it's pretty awesome. The screen will flash if you get something critical like an eye debuff (some people aren't paying attention as well as they should be for those, so you'd say it's eliminating player skill for the addon to alert you right?), it also has the ability to have a special skill bar that is hidden most of the time, you put your morale, power, wound, poison, fear, and disease pots in it, and then when you get a poison, the poison pot pops up in the middle of the screen for you to click on right there, it's telling you "hey you got a poison, take a poison pot!" then you take a poison pot, and the cooldown starts tickind down as a diminishing bar on your screen! You can set the morale/power thresholds for when to take a pot too. I might set my morale pot threshold to 75%, power pot threshold to 50% or something. When my morale gets to 75%, my pot pops up.

That's "thinking for you" more than a DPS meter does or a threat meter does. It's STILL just presenting you information in a more convenient way. Threat meter in game right now is you pulled aggro and the mob has you targeted, in the combat options you can show the vitals of your target's targets, that indicates you're doing too much threat right? Threat meters just present the information in a more convenient way that might make you realize you're doing too much threat and the tank too little before the mob turns to you.

You still have to know what to do with this information.

Man complaining about tools taking out "skill" is just dumb. That's like console first person shooter players boasting that it takes more skill to play team fortress 2 on xbox rather than PC because aiming with an analog stick sucks compared to aiming with a mouse. That's like saying people running the 100m dash in the olympics shouldn't be wearing special sprinting shoes to go faster, they should be running in hiking boots or flip flops, because hey, it takes more skill to go fast in flip flops doesn't it?

[Grampsaz]

Is it also possible to have that bar show up when you break a certain morale threshhold?

I have my morale pots and wound pots all on one bar, so it would be nice if it would also show up when i fall below 20% morale or somesuch. unless i misunderstand and only a single slot is being turned on and off...

Thats exactly what it does man. You set the threshold. 50% for power? Up pops up a power pot when you take it cooldown for that pot is added to the bar.

I hope that Ver. 2 will allow us to set multiple boxes up with pots/skills. As of right now there is one box for power one for morale one for fear ect which is nice when you get one fear, but if you get three I want the option to take one fear pot or new champ skill (name eludes me)

Additionally I'd like to see a reverse of AmIBuffed. AmIBuffed does a check of your active buffs and if say, Fevour isn't toggled on you get a reminder to enable it. What I'd like to see is say, you get a defeat response and a UI pops up with Red Haze ect With burgs, you get a crit response and a UI Bar pops up with your Crit response skills, tanks if you get a parry response a UI pops up with your parry skills.

Clean up the UI a ton (Depending on class) and would be beneficial to the way I play.

[-Sylvan-Shadow-]

Oh my, this thread is still going on lol

Maybe it will get the record for biggest thread on the forums

[Bradd]

Threat meter in game right now is you pulled aggro and the mob has you targeted, in the combat options you can show the vitals of your target's targets, that indicates you're doing too much threat right? Threat meters just present the information in a more convenient way that might make you realize you're doing too much threat and the tank too little before the mob turns to you.

You still have to know what to do with this information.

Man complaining about tools taking out "skill" is just dumb. That's like console first person shooter players boasting that it takes more skill to play team fortress 2 on xbox rather than PC because aiming with an analog stick sucks compared to aiming with a mouse. That's like saying people running the 100m dash in the olympics shouldn't be wearing special sprinting shoes to go faster, they should be running in hiking boots or flip flops, because hey, it takes more skill to go fast in flip flops doesn't it?

If there really was a threat meter in game, you would not be asking for one because you keep pulling aggro. If aggro manangement were not a skill, you would have learned by now how to keep from pulling aggro. Right now, there is no warning for anyone when they are close to getting aggro - they only find out when they have made a mistake and pushed too hard. That is as it should be. The addons should not be telling us what to do and when to do it. We need to learn the game, think for ourselves, and play the game for ourselves.

Threat meters dumb things down so that people, who don't understand aggro manangement, won't pull aggro.

[Lohi]

Why haven't ppl put up a fuss about a UI flashing on your screen telling you how much time is left on a buff/debuff you have?

Because that's a personal tool. If you choose not to use the tool it will never affect you. A DPS meter however will affect you even if you don't use it, which has been shown to happen in other games.

[Bradd]

I have raided in WoW before threat/dps meter became common, and i raided in WoW after they became common. It changed the game and not for the better imho. People getting kicked out of raids because they did 3% less damage than others, classes banned completely, i have seen it all.

I dont want this constant pressure to get better, be optimal or having to compare myself constantly to others(and even if you dont install these addon, your group/raid members will make sure to shove these numbers down your throat). This is a game, not a job. And i play to relax, not to get a rating at the end of each instance by my class supervisor.

And the old argument "not all people are like that" is getting old really fast imho, its the universal excuse to get whatever you want. You can always claim that there are some saints or even normal people around that wont misuse something, doesnt mean that those few who would misuse it wont do a hell of a lot of damage in the meanwhile though. Its like saying we dont need to fix exploits because our players wouldnt abuse them, its untrue and we all know it. The majority of us are not saints, and depending on the day we are not even very nice people.

DPS/Threat meters are not necessary. They are convenient. They make raids go 5 min faster because everyone can be at his limit, they help you weed out classes that do 5% less damage than others(@Raidleader, throw out all hunters, the RKs are doing 5% more damage each). They will create a bonefire of class complaints and whining. If you get shown every raid that your class is weaker you will complain, alot. They also make the game easier.

Have you all really thought this through what it would mean for class balance? Turbine will have to justify why RKs do X% more or less than hunters, Champions will complain about Loremasters AOE, Guardians will be up in arms over the TPS of Wardens etc. I have seen it in WoW, and look where it took us. I have seen the early days of DPS meters, whole classes being exempt from raids because everyone could see they underperformed etc. It only changed slowly and over many months when blizzard slowly made all classes being equally good DDs, all tanks equally good at AOE threat, removed any need for CC etc. In turn special abilities got axed to preserve balance. These meters wouldnt work the same in LotRO as they work in todays WoW, they would work like they did in pre-BC WoW and it was hell for the non pure classes.



Sorry for the rant, but i feel strongly about this. I honestly believe this would not end in just a couple players getting better with their chars, or having smoother instance runs. And i also believe this is not something we could sit out by just avoiding the addons personally, it would change the game as we know it because it would change the perception of the majority of players. Also i really dislike the idea of making the game even more easier.

Someone needs to email this to whoever is in charge of addons at Turbine. Many of us have seen them same things, but he expressed our concerns quite eloquently.

Hopefully they will reconsider a move that will alienate so many of their present customers.