Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[Devildoc]

Im glad you liked that one point I made. However, I may not have been clear. When I mean 'judged' I do not mean in a way that is healthy. I mean in a public and often humiliating way. It opens the door to judgemental ideals and actions. That is not good for our community.

I'll clarify. There are plenty of ways in game and out to improve your performance. A damage meter is redundancy for that purpose, and harmful in many others.

One cannot turn back the clock. If meters are introduced and do destroy the community, noone will feel good enough about it to say 'I told you so'. It hurts us all.

If they don't introduce meters, then nothing changes regarding that.

Why not try? Because once done, it cannot be undone.

If you depend on those 11 players, perhaps you should know them well enough beforehand to be able to trust their ability/dedication?

Sometimes it takes a little minor humiliation in public to make a point stand out. Case in point, we had a someone who would get purple eye and then forget which direction they was supposed to run in and so they ran around erratically like a chicken with their head cut off. The fight and what direction you're supposed to run in is explained in the strat explanation every single day just before we start the fight. This is information that admittingly once you've done the fight a few times, you kinda just let skip over your head and you don't really listen to, it's a joke with me after Gramps gets done explaining the whole strat and asks if there are any questions I always say "Yeah.. so... what are we doin?" The first time they ran the wrong way they weren't singled out by name in public and called out that they went the wrong way or did anything wrong. Just a general comment that "everyone" should know to go left when you get the purple eye was made. I'm not sure, but I think one of the raid leaders may have even pulled them aside in private and made sure they knew which direction to go, cause they went the wrong way and looked confused. However it didn't take and they did it again.

This time I singled them out on vent, in public, pointing out what they did wrong. They get a little embarassed, but hey, now they remember which way to go, and they'll remember it this time because it was pointed out in such a way they couldn't just ignore it.

When I make a mistake like that, I call myself out in public, you can bet I won't be queing up anymore pen shots when the fell beast is 5 feet away from me and I just got the yellow eye so the pen shot roots me in place and gets me chomped.

You can also bet I won't go in there with only 1k DP and be unable to wipe my own dread after a wipe and make everyone wait on me anymore... nor will I go jumping around next to the gate that triggers the boss to script.. I embarassed myself. I could have hid it, Gramps wasn't going to call out the "one person" who didn't have Destiny points to clear their dread, and nobody saw who jumped and managed to touch the threshold of the gate and script the boss. But I didn't, I claimed fault, and apologized to the 11 other people I just failed.

I do follow the golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated.

I want people to call me out when I jack up.

[darkannex]

I'm sorry, publicly humiliating anyone, regardless of the situation...is NEVER called for. I'm sorry that you had trouble in your run. I'm glad that you expect to be treated the same...but a whisper afterwards would have served just as well. If they didn't get it that time, or didn't understand/ignored it, then there are other options rather than name calling them out in public.

When I do something wrong, I hope to be corrected. Kindly and in private. My mistake does not need to be the central focus of anything.

Making someone feel horrible for making an honest ERROR, is just flat out ridiculous.

By this argument, we should now have meters that not only make sure that gear is good enough, but that the person in question has sufficient destiny points coming to the run. Where does this end? (that wasn't a directed comment at you, just a general 'once meters start, where do they stop').

[Solien]

Funny you should say that because that is exactly what comes to mind when people tell me I can't or shouldn't be allowed to play with advanced parsers, meters, or other addons. Why is it so important to them that they control my game play?

I don't know. I'm personally not in favor of DPS or threat meters, because it's blatantly obvious what will happen to this game's community when we get them, but that's really just my opinion. Can't people be opposed to meters without being accused of trying to control everyone else's gameplay?

My post was about the idea that the only reason to play LotRO is because it's based on Lord of the Rings, which is an asinine statement.

[kerryak]

When I do something wrong, I hope to be corrected. Kindly and in private. My mistake does not need to be the central focus of anything.

And when that doesn't work the first three times? Everyone makes mistakes (I sure do) but at some point, you need to stop being polite to the one in order to be polite to the other ten.

Is nicely asking someone to leave less rude?

(I'm asking for the sake of conversation, I'm a kin leader, and have been a raid leader in other kins, and guild leader/officer in plenty of MMOs. I always overview each pull and strat, and if it doesn't work, talk about why w/o pointing fingers [edit for clarity: which addresses the issues, usually w/ PUG members. Most players in my kins own up to mistakes, publicly, and usually w/ a good laugh.])

That being said, being nice and continuing to fail due to one player doesn't win you raids. At some point, you have to come to terms that it isn't working. Where's that line?





--
also; there's this 'humiliation' and 'making someone feel horrible' aspect to this discussion. I've said this several times, but if someone's leadership style is to do this, they might be successful for their technical skill, but I still wouldn't play w/ them. IMO, an abusive loudmouth elitist w/ a DPS meter would still be an abusive loudmouth elitist w/o it.

[darkannex]

If the only reason to play LOTRO was because it's based on Lord of the Rings, then many people would have left already.

The developers have already played very fast and loose with many of the lore based ideas.
I personally play the game because

1. The community
2. The game itself is well done
3. It's Lord of the Rings.

So yes, it is a factor, but not the only one. If this game was horrible, then nothing would save it, not even being Lord of the Rings.

Look at Star Trek Online. And Final Fantasy 11. As popular as those names are, you would think they'd have blown all else away. they haven't. Also look at the older Star Wars game. It was well received, but never got to the numbers you would have expected for being Star Wars (even before the Jedi fiasco). Name recognition helps, but you can package poop as fragrance, and people would still realize it's poop.

[Gedachtnis]

I'm sorry, publicly humiliating anyone, regardless of the situation...is NEVER called for. I'm sorry that you had trouble in your run. I'm glad that you expect to be treated the same...but a whisper afterwards would have served just as well. If they didn't get it that time, or didn't understand/ignored it, then there are other options rather than name calling them out in public.

When I do something wrong, I hope to be corrected. Kindly and in private. My mistake does not need to be the central focus of anything.

Making someone feel horrible for making an honest ERROR, is just flat out ridiculous.

By this argument, we should now have meters that not only make sure that gear is good enough, but that the person in question has sufficient destiny points coming to the run. Where does this end? (that wasn't a directed comment at you, just a general 'once meters start, where do they stop').

A serious progressive raiding team is not always the most sensitive place.

There are expectations, and as a player, you know what those expectations are up front.

There's a huge difference between serious Progressive Raiding, General Raiding, On Farm Raiding, etc.

The term "Raiding" gets bandied about alot as a catchall term, when in fact there are many different iterations.

What and how something might get said to a progressive team member is not what or how it might be said if your in a PuG or to another kinmate who is just along for a ride on a farm run.

[darkannex]

And when that doesn't work the first three times? Everyone makes mistakes (I sure do) but at some point, you need to stop being polite to the one in order to be polite to the other ten.

Is nicely asking someone to leave less rude?

(I'm asking for the sake of conversation, I'm a kin leader, and have been a raid leader in other kins, and guild leader/officer in plenty of MMOs. I always overview each pull and strat, and if it doesn't work, talk about why w/o pointing fingers. That being said, being nice and continuing to fail doesn't win you raids. At some point, you have to come to terms that it isn't working. Where's that line?)



--
also; there's this 'humiliation' and 'making someone feel horrible' aspect to this discussion. I've said this several times, but if someone's leadership style is to do this, they might be successful for their technical skill, but I still wouldn't play w/ them. IMO, an abusive loudmouth elitist w/ a DPS meter would still be an abusive loudmouth elitist w/o it.

I used humiliated because that was the response to my post. He indicated that a little humiliation is good. I assert that it never is. You don't think calling someone out in front of their peers wouldn't lead to them feeling foolish and ashamed? I know I sure would. In a game, or in real life. If my manager dressed me down in front of my colleagues for a mistake, I'd be in HR before the hour was out. You do NOT treat people that way. Ever.

As for your problem, I am sorry that you have run with people that have not been more able to accept proper instruction. Without knowing the specifics (which I don't want to), all I can say is that each case is unique. Age, ability, mental capacity (yes, that does come into play in some cases), hearing, and other things can affect dealing with people.

Perhaps after taking all the private steps you did, taking that person aside after the raid and talking to them, explaining one final time and asking them to sit out until they feel able to follow instructions would be better. Or perhaps find a skirmish/instance that would help them practice what it is they need. Game mechanics in this game are rarely unique, they are used in many encounters.



@ Ged. I know well what a serious progression raid is. I was in one, back in WoW Vanilla. I was in a less serious one after that for this very reason. But the arguments that many of the pro-meter people are using is that this community is different. If it is so, then that type of attitude should not be present, right? If that attitude IS present, than their argument falls apart...because honestly people are people...and meters cater best to those that are most unkind.
Being in an end game cutting edge guild should not mean shelving professionalism and common courtesy. When it does, that group is 'fail' no matter what they down and in what order.

[SaintBass]

Exactly!

Thank you for pointing that out. We are playing a MMO, this isnt' a single player console game that you can Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Select, Start your way through.

In a raid, I depend on the 11 other players to make a successful run happen. If a hunter is floating in the background they should be judged on their performance. If a LM doesn't throw one single heal it either means we did so good we didn't need them, or they just didn't bother. ECT.

They should be judged, constructively of course. The same old argument is in page after page. I dont need them. Well you might not, but what if you do? What if you could get better? Why do ppl feel compelled to sit and rot at their current skill level? Regardless of what it is.

I'm a good player. I'm not great, I'm not the best. But I can play any class at a high level, some better then others. I would love love love a healing meter to see where I really can improve. Is it twisting? When is that group heal too much or not enough? On my RK, Does Epic really fail as much as I think it does? I struggle at healing, have asked for and recieved help from many healers, a couple of the best healers in game IMO. Still, it falls on me. I'm a visual learner. Keeping someone alive or watching someone die doesn't teach me anything. I would love to be able to compare my healing with another healers healing on the fly. Visually I can see/hear what skills they are using, while at the same time I can visually see what their healing output is vs my own. Making adjustments on the fly, not ending encounter running through some numbers in Cstats and started a new encounter again.

Cstats is good, for all its limitations. But Ill take a mod supported by Turbine any day over Cstats.

Funny story... kinda related. I play regularly with a few other people, our skill levels range from what I would call "average" to "OMG!! I can't believe you just pulled that off." Four of us were bringing some alts up through the line earlier this year and were starting the GS grind... first a quest run, then a HM run. We had a good start of a group, tank, heals, DPS, buffs and just wanted to fill in with more DPS to speed things along.

The two that we PuG'ed are what I would call "non-optimal, but to be expected." They weren't so bad off that they were still using their very first LI's (something I still see disturbingly often) or slotting 7 of one particular trait line (another thing I see too often). After the very first fight, I could see that we were in for some chop. All of my friends were in Vent and I asked, "Should we push hard, see if they step up?" I got a unanimous "Yes." and we proceeded to pull very, very aggressively. By the time we had finished the Warg Boss, with a little advice, direction and encouragement, the two puggies had increased their level of performance considerably... as evidenced by the speed with which we dispatched things and how diligently they chose targets.

Could we have 4-manned GS? Probably... but we weren't achievement hunting that day, we were still leveling and there was no point in not producing optimal medallion output even it it involved two complete strangers. Did we carry two noobs? Sure, but we also taught them some things and showed them how smoothly a group can operate. I am fully confident that their experience put them in a better position to be a greater asset in future groups. Would've a group-wide DPS meter helped? Not necessarily... especially since a group-wide meter won't show you where the trouble spots are... just if somebody is meeting some arbitrary benchmark. In some ways a group wide meter will provide a too narrow band of information, as such, its only true use would be to exclude, not diagnose performance.

"Player A is a FailChamp." does not qualify as a diagnosis. "Player A is pulling Agro." is not a diagnosis. "Player A is using rising ire on the Tank." is a diagnosis. "Player A front-loads all his damage very early in a fight." is the beginning of a diagnosis.

This is why I am in full support of player side DPS meters and diagnostic tools but really have a hard time buying into the notion that group-wide meters will make everything better... especially considering my low opinion of the general levels of competence and intelligence of the average person. Some groups I am sure will handle it well and use such things appropriately, but the mountain of Derp that will otherwise be present is quite honestly mortifying.

[kerryak]

I used humiliated because that was the response to my post. He indicated that a little humiliation is good. I assert that it never is. You don't think calling someone out in front of their peers wouldn't lead to them feeling foolish and ashamed? I know I sure would. In a game, or in real life. If my manager dressed me down in front of my colleagues for a mistake, I'd be in HR before the hour was out. You do NOT treat people that way. Ever.

As for your problem, I am sorry that you have run with people that have not been more able to accept proper instruction. Without knowing the specifics (which I don't want to), all I can say is that each case is unique. Age, ability, mental capacity (yes, that does come into play in some cases), hearing, and other things can affect dealing with people.

Perhaps after taking all the private steps you did, taking that person aside after the raid and talking to them, explaining one final time and asking them to sit out until they feel able to follow instructions would be better. Or perhaps find a skirmish/instance that would help them practice what it is they need. Game mechanics in this game are rarely unique, they are used in many encounters.

Let me clarify that my situation was a hypothetical one, hence the "for the sake of conversation" line. (and I edit'd that post to make that a little more clear, hehe)

Players in my groups own up to their mistakes before I have a chance to talk to them in private. And we usually laugh about it, and grab another beer.

[Devildoc]

I'm sorry, publicly humiliating anyone, regardless of the situation...is NEVER called for. I'm sorry that you had trouble in your run. I'm glad that you expect to be treated the same...but a whisper afterwards would have served just as well. If they didn't get it that time, or didn't understand/ignored it, then there are other options rather than name calling them out in public.

When I do something wrong, I hope to be corrected. Kindly and in private. My mistake does not need to be the central focus of anything.

Making someone feel horrible for making an honest ERROR, is just flat out ridiculous.

By this argument, we should now have meters that not only make sure that gear is good enough, but that the person in question has sufficient destiny points coming to the run. Where does this end? (that wasn't a directed comment at you, just a general 'once meters start, where do they stop').

It's most certainly called for in some situations. It's not the first thing you go to, but if being polite doesn't work, you try something else. Ribbing someone in public seems to work for me most times. But, you know, it's not like you're doing it with a malicious intent, the person has to know you're only calling them on their mistake so that they remember to fix it. As said by kerryak, eventually you gotta put the good of the other 11 people ahead of 1 person, and figure out a way that works. Me, I would rather give someone a little embarassment, so they remember, and fix themselves so it doesn't happen again, than sugarcoat words and politely dismiss them from the raid and bring in someone else. Which would you rather have happen to you?

Are you a big boy/girl that can handle some criticism and improve yourself, or do you have thin skin and need to be excused for a time out?

I have every confidence in the person in my example being able to take a little ribbing and improve and not make the same mistake again. They're one of the go-to people for a class in kin. I don't want them to get excused and replaced just for politeness' sake.

[darkannex]

I appreciate your viewpoint, and will agree to disagree.
Ill just add that your 'needs of the many' argument has one flaw.
Those many are each made up of individuals as well.

Peace and pancakes to all.

[Gedachtnis]

I don't know. I'm personally not in favor of DPS or threat meters, because it's blatantly obvious what will happen to this game's community when we get them, but that's really just my opinion. Can't people be opposed to meters without being accused of trying to control everyone else's gameplay?

My post was about the idea that the only reason to play LotRO is because it's based on Lord of the Rings, which is an asinine statement.

I think they can Solien. But it cut's the both ways.

Just because someone want's or doesn't care one way or the other about meters, doesn't mean they're trying to judge people or epeen, etc.

I was the raid leader for the 1st/2nd highest progressive raiding kin on our server in WoW. We required Recount, Omen and Vent to raid.

We had 3 stages to our raids. A static Progression Team that worked out the strats and got everything down. A second more fluid team of players that would then go in and execute the strats, refine them for less optimal groups etc. And finally an on farm run, where we would take people in the guild that were more into RP, 5 mans, PvP, friends from guilds that didn't raid, whatever. We'd take them 3-5 at a time so they could see the content and we'd succeed still, without them needing to be "raiders" per se.

I also had rules governing stuff like epeening.

If a Progressive Team member lorded their position over anyone, Guild Kick. Period, no questions, no second chance, don't care how key a position you play, just **** of my guild.

Meter's only mattered to analyse the fights to make adjustments to assignments/strats. Post them in an open channel and flex... ****.

It's the individuals that set the rules, unfortunately most want to not have to do that.

I'm not saying you've had that attitude Solien, just that it's been seen here in this thread just as often as the side you pointed out.

I do agree though, meters will change the community, and likely not for the better.

[SaintBass]

There is a reason why we as a society stopped using public humiliation as a form of correction, justice or punishment. There are very real examples of it going horribly, horribly wrong.

Having been raised in a cult, I can attest to its impact first hand and have hours of horror stories that I could tell. So, no... it is not a valid form of correction in its own right. Sure, there are other ends of the spectrum that are equally damaging (everyone gets a trophy for participating, nobody gets a trophy for winning) but public humiliation as a tool unto itself is nothing but a method of control and manipulation.

[Solien]

I'm not saying you've had that attitude Solien, just that it's been seen here in this thread just as often as the side you pointed out.

Oh, for sure. Any of these heated debates tend to devolve into some serious hyperbole at one (or several) points by people on both sides.

[Devildoc]

Let me clarify that my situation was a hypothetical one, hence the "for the sake of conversation" line. (and I edit'd that post to make that a little more clear, hehe)

Players in my groups own up to their mistakes before I have a chance to talk to them in private. And we usually laugh about it, and grab another beer.

I'm that kind of person, I don't want people to hide my mistakes, if someone doesn't call me on it, I call myself. Dealing with shame is a part of life, if you can't handle shame, you need to grow up and stop being coddled. Shame is a part of learning a lesson, you feel ashamed, you learn your lesson, you improve, you move on, it makes you stronger, it thickens your skin, it allows you to bear criticism in stride, it allows you to take responsibility for your faults.

Heck, physical PAIN is a part of learning many lessons, that's hard wired into our biology, but you don't exactly see me advocating that at least. Although if I could reach through the screen and bonk someone on the head a la Larry, Curly and Moe.. there's definitely some times it'd be tempting!

But not being able to handle criticism and shame, that's a sign of a very weak person, there's something wrong with them.

[Solien]

Shame is a part of learning a lesson, you feel ashamed, you learn your lesson, you improve, you move on, it makes you stronger, it thickens your skin, it allows you to bear criticism in stride, it allows you to take responsibility for your faults.

I'm wondering if you mean one thing but are saying it in such a way that's being read/interpreted in another.

One type of shame is the shame we feel and which we place upon ourselves when we make a mistake. In that sense, I'm completely on the same page with you. Someone who feels no self-imposed shame after making a mistake is someone unlikely to learn from that mistake, and as an educator, I've seen the damage done to our children by a couple of decades' worth of "self-esteem comes first" teaching in our society (fortunately, there's some research being done which shows that always protecting a child's self-esteem harms them far more than it helps them).

Another type of shame is imposed from the outside, by another. It's possible to critique or criticize another without intentionally shaming them. It's certainly possible to analyze an action or decision and separate it from the person responsible. One thing I always want my students to know is that the grades I give them are assessments of their work, not any kind of moral or personal judgement about them. When you stop criticizing and start shaming, you stand a very real chance of the person losing sight of the mistake and moving backwards in resolving problems.

[darkannex]

There is a difference between constructive criticism, and calling out someone publicly. I respect your opinions, and fail to agree with them. I think MOST people are self-aware enough to want to do better and would appreciate help in that matter. But where I draw the line is making my errors part of a public spectacle. Talk to me about it, not to the whole group.

*shrug* but different strokes I guess

edit: And since when is asking and expecting to be treated courteously and respectfully considered thin-skinned?

[Grampsaz]

You can only walk on egg shells for so long before one of them breaks. I've raided with the same ppl for years now. Some newer ones of course, and those newer ones it takes time to understand what they are cappable of and to find the line in which I dont want to cross when it comes to critisizm.

I know what kinmate needs to be singled out, I know what kinmate cant be. I know when I gotta get the channel quiet, and I know when I gotta get some energy back in channel. Its stuff you learn over time.

I dont scream, I dont holler, but I do get my point across when the time is right.

A dps meter I'm able to have some data to back up a concern. It could be as simple as "Hunter 1 you were in charge of locking down that Warg, yet I see you at full dps on the boss" OR "Hunter 2, your dps was 1/2 of everyone else, whats your issue?"

A threat meter there is NO excuses for Arato. He will learn from it, he will over time learn how much threat a Crit Remorseless will spike and he can adjust to that. When he's at 65% of the Tanks threat or higher, no Remorseless. Its a tool I think lots of people could learn from with out it having to be a tool to hurt.

I know even in my own kin, there are several players that have no interest in plug ins. Thats fine, doesn't phase me one bit. But given the chance to use mods as our kins raid leader, it can only go to help my leadership which will in turn help our kins progression.

As a further example, next update they hope to have the API tech in place so I could see mob buffs/debuffs in a custom UI AND fellow/raid members buffs/debuffs in a custom UI.
Anyone thats been fighting Lt. could attest to how valuable this tool could be. I took a 5 month break, so we are just gettting going again. But I know when certain players get an Eye they can react, I also know when certain players get an eye they might not react fast enough. Wipe, three hrs down the drain.

Being able to see it for them while still being able to do my other job, instead of standing off to the side babysitting eyes, it will be most welcome.

[Devildoc]

I'm wondering if you mean one thing but are saying it in such a way that's being read/interpreted in another.

One type of shame is the shame we feel and which we place upon ourselves when we make a mistake. In that sense, I'm completely on the same page with you. Someone who feels no self-imposed shame after making a mistake is someone unlikely to learn from that mistake, and as an educator, I've seen the damage done to our children by a couple of decades' worth of "self-esteem comes first" teaching in our society (fortunately, there's some research being done which shows that always protecting a child's self-esteem harms them far more than it helps them).

Another type of shame is imposed from the outside, by another. It's possible to critique or criticize another without intentionally shaming them. It's certainly possible to analyze an action or decision and separate it from the person responsible. One thing I always want my students to know is that the grades I give them are assessments of their work, not any kind of moral or personal judgement about them. When you stop criticizing and start shaming, you stand a very real chance of the person losing sight of the mistake and moving backwards in resolving problems.

Well, I don't know, you were there in the situation I was talking about, you know who it was referring to (note that I don't bring them out, I don't even reveal their gender, because criticizing them here would serve no purpose other than to be mean, I can make that distinction). You saw their reaction, I asked "well now you'll remember right?" and they laughed it off and said yes they'd remember, and no hard feelings, nobody thought lesser of them. It is crucial that the target of the criticism is the mistake more than who made the mistake, cause anyone can make that mistake, but still singling them out, makes them realize "hey, *I* made that mistake". Then that self imposed shame comes in.

Like I've said before, sometimes, when you're fussing too much about being polite, you end up coming across them in a way that makes them think you're not being serious, and if you're not direct with them, and trying to be subtle without singling them out, sometimes it comes across in a way where they don't realize, you're referring to them.

They were trying the self esteem first approach when I first entered school. I didn't buy it, "there's no such thing as a dumb question", yes there is, and everyone in their life asks a few some time or another, gets a dumb answer, feels a little embarrassed, and they move on. Not all classes tried it though, PE definitely didn't try it, if you couldn't climb the rope or do pullups, you felt like a real schmuck, the instructor made you feel like a schmuck, and all your classmates reinforced it.

[Devildoc]

You can only walk on egg shells for so long before one of them breaks. I've raided with the same ppl for years now. Some newer ones of course, and those newer ones it takes time to understand what they are cappable of and to find the line in which I dont want to cross when it comes to critisizm.

I know what kinmate needs to be singled out, I know what kinmate cant be. I know when I gotta get the channel quiet, and I know when I gotta get some energy back in channel. Its stuff you learn over time.

I dont scream, I dont holler, but I do get my point across when the time is right.

A dps meter I'm able to have some data to back up a concern. It could be as simple as "Hunter 1 you were in charge of locking down that Warg, yet I see you at full dps on the boss" OR "Hunter 2, your dps was 1/2 of everyone else, whats your issue?"

A threat meter there is NO excuses for Arato. He will learn from it, he will over time learn how much threat a Crit Remorseless will spike and he can adjust to that. When he's at 65% of the Tanks threat or higher, no Remorseless. Its a tool I think lots of people could learn from with out it having to be a tool to hurt.

I know even in my own kin, there are several players that have no interest in plug ins. Thats fine, doesn't phase me one bit. But given the chance to use mods as our kins raid leader, it can only go to help my leadership which will in turn help our kins progression.

As a further example, next update they hope to have the API tech in place so I could see mob buffs/debuffs in a custom UI AND fellow/raid members buffs/debuffs in a custom UI.
Anyone thats been fighting Lt. could attest to how valuable this tool could be. I took a 5 month break, so we are just gettting going again. But I know when certain players get an Eye they can react, I also know when certain players get an eye they might not react fast enough. Wipe, three hrs down the drain.

Being able to see it for them while still being able to do my other job, instead of standing off to the side babysitting eyes, it will be most welcome.

Man I don't even use remorseless in BG unless it's the last add that Sol's been tanking all day by himself over in a corner and it's not a mace :P

will I use it in SG? Hell yeah. DN? Hell yeah.

Nothing there hits me for half my morale in 1 shot.

[Solien]

will I use it in SG? Hell yeah. DN? Hell yeah.

And you should. Nothing makes me chuckle more than seeing "we need a Guard or Warden for SG" in glff...I'm like, lol what do you need a Guard for, those mobs hit like sissies.

[Celebria]

The thing that makes me chuckle more is seeing that request for GS...

LOL

[Devildoc]

And you should. Nothing makes me chuckle more than seeing "we need a Guard or Warden for SG" in glff...I'm like, lol what do you need a Guard for, those mobs hit like sissies.

I only like a guard or warden or something that can get threat on things without damaging it in Gorothul, just cause while people say it's impossible for 1 champ to fail hard mode by shing shinging to keep stuff off minstrels.. I've managed to kill the hm ghosts doing just that. But even then they're just picking up adds, and most of the time, you can just have your captain keep stuff off the minstrel and spam rallying cry.

[Celt_Ainvar]

I think the dps meter is the worse idea. It like putting baby cloths on everyone class.

But I think what needs to be done is Get the new players into Fellowship Earlier. Get them back into Book quests vol 1 quests. So we can make better players. While explaining to the new players what each Skill dose and so on in Fellowships

Going from level 1 to 40+ solo dose not help in fellowships or Raids. But having a DPS meter is a Bandaid to a Bigger problem What needed is Elite Players that are willing to Tech new class players how to play and what is needed to help fellowships.


If I have someone say I need a DPS meter. I will Tell them No. DPS players are for Dummys.

[Celebria]

DPS For Dummies...

Oh, yeah, my hunter has that book somewhere...never did finish it.