Seriously considering a warden but a few questions.

[Jaltir]

Yeah, in hindsight I have to agree. Somebody help me out.

Ahem. Is this thing on?

It's a game, shut up and play.


What it lacks in snark, I feel it makes up for in shut-up-and-play-ness.

[tanis0]

Ahem. Is this thing on?

It's a game, shut up and play.


What it lacks in snark, I feel it makes up for in shut-up-and-play-ness.

How very Dr. Cox of you... But why would we do that? Have you SEEN this forum before?

[Laurjo]

Well I am viip, and im sorry guys but I still think flames out of a shield is magic, you might as well called loremasters and runekeepers a nonmagic class as well.

Hold on, I missed something. Why do you care, again?

Also, you should stay away from Minstrels, Captains, and Guardians, too, since they all do things with yelling that, clearly, humans (elves, dwarves, hobbits) can't do with their voice, and certainly not to things that don't speak [strike]english[/strike] westron. That leaves Champs and Burgs. Oh, but wait, Burgs can do a thing where they let the whole fellowship summon an eagle, horse, ent, or spider to aid them, so they're clarly magical, too. And champs can participate in those. Plus, they can hit 10 mobs with a single swing! That ain't right either.

Huh, looks like you'll just have to suck it up or go without. Oh well.

[angelbound]

I was not trying to be snarky but now I will be since you all like to assume allot, I was answering someone who said wardens and rks are not for premium unless you buy with the vip comment, bad english I know. But a runekeeper uses magic regardless he uses a form of energy whatever you want to call it, but this is not a sci fi game it is fantasy purely fictional, if the genre is fantasy then it has magic, that is why it is under fantasy. All books that say fantasy has some form of magic or another, there is a reason why lord of the rings is under the genre fantasy not fiction but fantasy.

Calling the elements is a form of magic in a fantasy world, if you could use the elements through a freeze gun that would be sci fi, but calling the elements with words out of thin air is fantasy and magic, it is dnd whatever you rather call it. I am sorry if you have a problem with magic but maybe your playing the wrong game oh well.

[lf2536]

I was not trying to be snarky but now I will be since you all like to assume allot, I was answering someone who said wardens and rks are not for premium unless you buy with the vip comment, bad english I know. But a runekeeper uses magic regardless he uses a form of energy whatever you want to call it, but this is not a sci fi game it is fantasy purely fictional, if the genre is fantasy then it has magic, that is why it is under fantasy. All books that say fantasy has some form of magic or another, there is a reason why lord of the rings is under the genre fantasy not fiction but fantasy.

Calling the elements is a form of magic in a fantasy world, if you could use the elements through a freeze gun that would be sci fi, but calling the elements with words out of thin air is fantasy and magic, it is dnd whatever you rather call it. I am sorry if you have a problem with magic but maybe your playing the wrong game oh well.

except you fail to understand a basic element of the game's lore, magic isn't used in Middle Earth, not in the sense that we give it anyway. no class in this game uses magic in any sense, and if manipulating the enviorment is to be considered magic then I suggest you have a talk with a meterologist about cloud seeding as that is clearly magic by your logic.

[tanis0]

First, let me apologize for being kind of rude earlier. It wasn't really called for.

Anyway, this will probably be the last post I make in this thread, but here's the situation on this. If you read the books, magic is extremely rare and almost nobody can do it. Even people who can do it almost never actually use it. The people who own the copyrights to the books tend to be very adamant about not allowing changes of this sort to the world presented in the books, and Turbine, as near as I can tell, is contractually obligated to abide by these wishes.

However, Turbine wants people to play their game, and they know that things like healing and crowd control are pretty important if you want a successful MMO. They also know that a lot of players like "magical" classes that do things like throw lightning. So, Turbine had to find a way to try to make these things fit into a world where magic is exceptionally rare without just changing that fact.

What Turbine chose to do was to design their game systems in ways that allowed normal MMO functions without magic (morale and power instead of health and mana being the prime example). Additionally, they decided to make flashy graphics that the players can see that don't actually exist in the world (this became much more pronounced with the RK when Moria launched). This is how they were allowed to have classes that appear to do magic in a world where only a handful of people know how to do any of it.

So, the bottom line is that if you want to believe that there is rampant magic in Middle Earth, by all mean believe that. It's certainly what many people argued when the RK was introduced. Most of us have since reconciled Turbine's dilemma to such a point that we accept their official answer on the subject, which is that nothing a player does as a function of their race or class is considered magical in nature within the world.

[angelbound]

Thank you for the mature post, while I do agree with you, I still think it is beyond just my belief, speaking words like a runekeeper does is the same thing as witchcraft, it is the same as using a spell, magic in every fantasy type of game or book comes from forms of lore, and the world around them rather they do it directly by manipulating the natural elements of the planet or they used knowledge from books and ancient scrolls or runes. Summoning lightning is summoning a form of energy, the warden to me looks like it is summoning energy through his spear and so on.

I can see it is possible that the warden is not a magic class but they added fire to his shield, in other mmorpgs they do the melee classes where it looks flashy but not magical at all but very appealing lotro did the opposite of some of the classes, and I am sorry but like I said its to close a call to not call it magic in a fantasy game.

It makes no sense why a runekeeper can summon ice and lightning from runes and not call that magic, and no this has nothing to do with magic in the sense you all are tyring to use the lame explanation that if someone showed me a pc in the stoned age I would think that is magic to, it is clear that the characters are not using another percentage of there brain, it is clear it does not come from technology, it is clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic.

There is no other explanation of manipulating the elements on the runekeeper and until someone comes out with some other kind of evidence that it does not come from magic your point will never validate the truth of it.

[Jaltir]

I have no concept of mental flexibility and no ability to make concessions.

The world must look pretty cool all in black and white. Do you also object to chop-socky films because learning a martial art doesn't really grant you superhuman abilities? Oh, and you must hate cop shows because they're not following correct police procedures. And Transformers must drive you nuts with its flagrant disregard for the laws of conservation of mass and energy, amirite?

If special effects violate your moral principles, then you must only watch documentaries. Oh, wait, they edit the film for watchability instead of showing a hundred hours of uncut interviews and footage, so those are out too.

[SerowLOTRO]

That's a bit harsh Jaltir. But at the same time, angelbound you should understand that the VFX shown in LOTRO is purely VFX for the sake of VFX, because otherwise they make gameplay harder than it needs to be without visual cues. Whatever VFX you might see here, 90% won't actually appear in LOTR. Only in LOTRO is it present for the players, and not the characters.

[Harc]

What is this fire from the shield that keeps being mentioned? Man... have I been playing with my graphics turned down too low?

Also, my shield does fire damage??!!!

[Thaelyn]

It makes no sense why a runekeeper can summon ice and lightning from runes and not call that magic, and no this has nothing to do with magic in the sense you all are tyring to use the lame explanation that if someone showed me a pc in the stoned age I would think that is magic to, it is clear that the characters are not using another percentage of there brain, it is clear it does not come from technology, it is clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic.

Not to delve too deeply into this back and forth, or be rude, but have you considered the possibility that you just laid the ground work for refuting your own argument?

Throughout the history of mankind those things that we do not have the capacity to understand have often been thought of as "magic". That is the basis for the various mythologies throughout history. People see something they don't understand (i.e. the sun traveling across the sky) and explain it away in terms they can understand (a god driving a blazing chariot through the heavens). To these people, it was "clear that there are higher beings who are angels and probably gods, there for has to do with myth and magic." The fact is, however, that men at that time lacked the tools and the rational capacity to discern the actual causes and meanings of the phenomena they witnessed. That doesn't make those phenomena magical. There has never been a blazing chariot driven across the sky by a god.

[LtDiablo]

./facepalm

[lf2536]

What is this fire from the shield that keeps being mentioned? Man... have I been playing with my graphics turned down too low?

Also, my shield does fire damage??!!!

next time you use Shield-bash take a look at your shield, it flares slightly red around the edges.

and shields do common damage unless you use shield spikes to alter the damage type.

[sinohp]

There has never been a blazing chariot driven across the sky by a god.

I dont know, im pretty sure i saw this very thing just the other day... He waved.

[TorynSinbane]

Life, friends, and other games have always conspired to keep me from permanently subscribing to LOTRO. However I have adored Middle Earth and the lore surrounding LOTR since I was a teenager.

I would just like to say, contractual obligations notwithstanding I have always respected the great lengths Turbine has gone to in order to stay faithful to their source material. Examples of this that I have seen include the aforementioned morale and power conventions, "Man" instead of "Human", no female Dwarven characters, etc. What in other games I would probably view cynically as developer cheese for the sake of being different (*cough* FFXIV *cough*) in LOTRO I admire and appreciate.

I certainly understand how the official explanation for magical effects in game would seem contrived to some folks. But for me it actually adds to the immersion of being in Middle Earth. Bravo Turbine.

[Hectorb911]

I believe you guys are getting stuck up on the visual thing.

What I think Angelbound is alluding to is that WITHOUT the visuals, speaking words of power and brandishing (or not) a runestone which causes an effect on a target is considered magic/spellcasting however you want to slice it.

unless you guys are advocating the runes themselves are an advanced technology then I'm inclined to agree with Angel.

[lf2536]

I believe you guys are getting stuck up on the visual thing.

What I think Angelbound is alluding to is that WITHOUT the visuals, speaking words of power and brandishing (or not) a runestone which causes an effect on a target is considered magic/spellcasting however you want to slice it.

unless you guys are advocating the runes themselves are an advanced technology then I'm inclined to agree with Angel.

except that in the lore as written words have a power all their own, now admitedly Turbine took that idea and turned into something somewhat different, but the core idea is the same. a word in Middle-earth has real power, Turbine decided it can also inflict damage or "heal" (there is no health in LotRO, there is morale, you are revived and not ressurected, subtle but important differences). as such the powers used by RKs are not magic, they are words exhibiting their natural abilities in Middle-earth, the fact that players required eye candy flames swirling around the mob doesn't make the skills magical, it makes Turbine clever in pandoring to the clients that wanted a "mage" class that could not exist otherwise.

[Hectorb911]

So there is the point of contention.

Words have a power all their own = magic as far as most are concerned.

What would that power be then if not magic?

Inherent power of the earth?
Calling upon forces normally not under our control such as druidic chants or prayers that perform miraculous feats or effects are staples of fantasy magic.

that you choose to call that power something else entirely just because it's middle earth still doesn't separate it from any other spellcasting.

Meloch (or whatever it was, don't remember exactly) opening a door to Moria is no diffferent than "OPEN SESAME" in aladdin.

I'm open to being enlightened but as yet, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

[tanis0]

So there is the point of contention.

Words have a power all their own = magic as far as most are concerned.

What would that power be then if not magic?

Inherent power of the earth?
Calling upon forces normally not under our control such as druidic chants or prayers that perform miraculous feats or effects are staples of fantasy magic.

that you choose to call that power something else entirely just because it's middle earth still doesn't separate it from any other spellcasting.

Meloch (or whatever it was, don't remember exactly) opening a door to Moria is no diffferent than "OPEN SESAME" in aladdin.

I'm open to being enlightened but as yet, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

Yes, this is basically the crux of the debate. My question is this: what is the difference between technology and magic? I would submit that the difference is that one is commonly understood in our world, while the other is not. That's certainly not the only difference between the two, but I think it's the most applicable.

In our world, words having intrinsic power to help you win a fight definitely falls into the category of magic. However, Middle Earth is a world where that is a commonly understood tenet, and thus has a somewhat different definition of what is magic and what isn't.

This debate is a really old one. It was all over the forums when the Runekeeper class was announced. Most of us were once on your side of the argument. Over time, I guess most of us accepted Turbine's official answer.

Also, when Lord of the Rings was penned, I'm not sure there *were* any real staples of fantasy writing. Tolkien is, after all, generally considered the father of modern fantasy.

[Jaltir]

I think the important and oft-missed things to consider are as follows: 1) The canonical position is that there is almost no magic in Middle-Earth. 2) Tolkien's family (or executors or whoever it is) exercises tight creative control over products based on Tolkien's works, and will refuse lorebreaking content. 3) Turbine felt that they needed to add a mage class to the game.

Given 1) and 2) above, Turbine necessarily had to perform a song-and-dance number to justify the existence of 3). They did so, and the Rune-Keeper, a scholar using the power of words AND TOTALLY NOT MAGIC OK GUYS FOR SRS was born.

So the debate of "is it or is it ain't magic" doesn't matter. Turbine convinced the only important people in the equation that it wasn't magic, so it's not a duck even if it looks like one and quacks like one.

[BINKLEY1]

Are wardens actually fun in groups?

I play several wardens at all levels of the game.

They are not fun at all in groups, you should know.

They are HELLA fun*.

Also, the melee style is as near an exact opposite of the Captain as you will find. Quick, varied, range and melee, lots of mob debuffs and self buffs.

One thing Warden does share with Captain, in the end game both can run as main healer in the easier instance, and secondary healer everywhere, while still running frontline dps. (Burglar and Guardian can do this as well because of CJs/FMs, in all honesty.)

* http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...hella-si-units

[Hectorb911]

So the debate of "is it or is it ain't magic" doesn't matter. Turbine convinced the only important people in the equation that it wasn't magic, so it's not a duck even if it looks like one and quacks like one.

So what i told you was the truth, from a certain point of view.
-O-w K

[lf2536]

So what i told you was the truth, from a certain point of view.
-O-w K

yes, if this was our world then I would agree, words having power = magic. but as Tanis and I have said, this is Tolkien's Middle Earth, rules are different here, a "word of Power" in Middle Earth does not equal magic, among the reasons that all species have them, there is nothing really unique about them, Gandalf spoke of knowing many words of command before the doors of Moria from many languages.

magic in LotR is overt and always noticable, if you've read the books think of the attack of the wargs on what in-game is called Burnt Tor and how Gandalf reacted to it, on the other hand using a word to open a gate as in the case of Moria is so day to day that Gandalf, as I mentioned, can easily think of many many words whose job it is to preform just that job.

words have real power in Middle Earth, did Turbine stretch the point considerably to make it work? no doubt, but still, this is within lore.

[ShotgunStalker]

I might buy a Warden from the LOTRO store and make it my alt.

And btw why does som people care if games has to be realistic or do exactly what the books says? I play videogames to get as far from reality as possible

[lf2536]

I might buy a Warden from the LOTRO store and make it my alt.

And btw why does som people care if games has to be realistic or do exactly what the books says? I play videogames to get as far from reality as possible

it kind of hard to explain why lore matters, best I can say is that we who care about lore care deeply about the source material, it's not just a book and a story and this is not just a game, for me (and others) this is a living world that has lived in my imagination for some time. the opportunity this game gives us in being able to visit this world in person is a great one, as such we want to have a world where things are as close as possible to the truth. try to think of it this way, someone made a Bible MMO (really, they did) and imagine that in it David defeats Goliath with a shotgun rather then a slingshot, this would cause an uproar from those who are religious, it kinda similar here. using the RK as an example it felt to some like we had a Sith lord thrown into the middle of Middle Earth, so people were unhappy.

obviously, as in all things, there are degrees, for myself I care very much about lore, but I realize this is a game, I can't have everything just as it was in the books. also, for this game to survive Turbine might need to stretch lore (again the RK) in order to atract customers and I'm mostly ok with that. there are somethings that I hate, the new Hobbit intro for one that makes me to never want to make a Hobbit ever again. there are those of course that care about lore accuracy more then I do and thus get angry when things are changed, again a David and shotgun kinda thing.