Ignore the Pain vs Fear Nothing

[Feybobiam]

I have always been of the opinion that Guardians deserve fear cures far more than Champs, and that Guards don't necessarily worry about wounds as much as Champs might.

One, Lore-masters are watching the Guard for wounds. Their wounds aren't a problem. Unless that Champion is tanking, it's not a big deal if they have wounds as much as it is a Guard. Ignore the Pain becomes rather useless here and would serve the Champ much better. Really, the only huge thing Ignore the Pain does for Guards outside of solo'ing is curing disarm, and if that's going to be a big issue for you, then I don't know what to say.

Two, Captains are watching the Guard for fears, but Muster Courage has a cooldown. If Guards had Fear Nothing, it would be much more appropriate to this end. Champions don't even need to worry about fears very much, as they tend to be Will/Fate debuffs or Silences, neither of which Champs care about (or a pot couldn't solve if they care that much). Will and Fate debuffs can hurt Guards, and Silences are even worse. There are Fear DoTs that everyone cares about, but if you're not tanking (the common Champ scenario) they shouldn't be a big sweat anyway, and certainly nothing Muster or Pot couldn't do. Leaving a Guard out to dry with a Fear DoT is a lot worse than a Champ. The same applies to wounds, but again, LMs can cure wounds with 0 cooldown, and RKs are adept at keeping them off as well.

Furthermore... Ignore the Pain is not Fast, nor does it offer any benefit to the Guardian outside of the wound cure. Look at a quick juxtapose.



There is virtually nothing that says Ignore the Pain is equal to or has a separate advantage that Fear Nothing does not have, outside the power cost. And when considering that Champions don't worry about power pretty much at all (unless they're tanking), the bloated power cost contrast in Ignore the Pain's favour is virtually a nonargument.

Therefore I ask: Why do Guards get wounds and Champs get fears, when it would clearly be better switched, and why do Guards not even get free block or parry responses while Champs get pips generated, and why is one Fast and the other not?

I hold that Guardians got pretty shafted in this, and move to suggest that Guardians have Fear Nothing and Champions have Ignore the Pain, and Ignore the Pain receive benefits that make it compare to Fear Nothing in terms of additional usage (extra pips) and effectiveness (Fast execution). The only real drawback this brings to serve is that Champions have Hedge which provides Wound Resistance, and granting them a Wound Cure on top of that may be stacking a bit too heavy in that department, but I would say that is a far lesser price to pay for Guardians getting a pretty junky skill while Champions get a pretty good mirror image of it, and furthermore one is definitely better suited for the other.

Unless the Devs intentionally don't want these skills to be quite useful and are just a fun little aside instead. In that case, why put them in at all, and why now, and why didn't any other classes get similar skills?

[Amrathil]

Guards tend to have relatively low will and fate compared to other classes, so those -225 will/fate fears are usually not ignorable unless it's a trivial fight. Wounds, on the other hand, usually just mean you're going to take more damage then usual and/or deal less damage than usual, both of which guards can usually ignore, given that the durations are typically short.

So yes, I agree a fear cure would have been a lot more useful for guards. Probably why we didn't get one.

[Hsahsirg]

1. Wounds are not a problem at all in any of the endgame instance or otherwise.

2. Fears are worse on a champion they kill your ICPR making your already expensive skills that much worse and with no real way to get power back without a defeat response or a pot it's not even close to as big of a deal on guardians due to their power restoring skills. Also DoT fears are not as big of a deal on guardians they are generally watched pretty closely by captains and healers while throwing out a heal to a champ is taking away from the healers power and time. And a silence would have to land at a terrible time to be even notable something that doesn't happen anywhere that would be near important.

3. The only place this skill is even half decent is the moors which is more than likely why you want this given your rank. It makes no sense for a champion to want an even less useful skill otherwise.

Unless of course you want this 5m CD skill to remove disarms but while champs can't do damage without weapons guardians can't either and they also can't use most of their threat skills add in the fact that champs have hedge and COULD even trait/legacy hedge if they were having that much of a problem I'd say keep it how it is. Lets also not forget that champs also have FN CD legacies making FN much better for fervour pips and removing your own fears so people don't have to watch you.

I also want the skills to stay the same for the same reason I suspect you do 3 fire DoTs aren't fun.

And look at that description it's so much awesomerer that ours.

[ShadowSephiroth]

Fear Nothing should have been a Guardian skill.

That is all.

[Iracham]

2. Fears are worse on a champion they kill your ICPR making your already expensive skills that much worse and with no real way to get power back without a defeat response or a pot it's not even close to as big of a deal on guardians due to their power restoring skills.

Most champion ICPR comes from their stance, not their fate/will. Try again.

[DackRover]

Fear Nothing should have been a Guardian skill.

That is all.

I thought this originally, especially since champs can handle disarm effects already...but am actually happy with our skill for 'Moors play. For raid, if you are depending on either skill to make or break your tanking...it will be the least of your worries, imo. Still think it should be a 1 min cd, though

[ArcticAurora]

My thoughts on this are a mixed bag.

Yes, I could look at other classes and say our skill sucked... and it kinda does .. but...

It has some use. It needs improvement. The 'Up to 3" is what annoys me. It appears to remove 1 to 3 at random. So basically it's at worst a second wound pot, which is already somewhat redundant with salves and LM wound removals at at best, it's potentially 3 wounds gone once every 5 minutes.

So, to fix this.. it needs to be some of the following:
- shorter CD
- higher min. removal amount
- maybe some short duration boost associated with this.

What I do NOT want to see is this given a legacy. Absolutely no way. I couldn't see a useful legacy of this, unless it was down to a like 15 second timer, and even that would be moors specific - and not an option for Turbine.

I would have preferred the fear removal (hearkening back to Annuminas days of olde), but the same arguments for the LM-presence above go for the Captain's fear removal. This skill was a throw-away by and large. Wound resists on a guard are likely higher than fear, so it's already less useful. Who knows.. maybe they'll create a situation in which it's useful.. until that point, i'll continue to look this gift horse in the mouth.

[Hsahsirg]

Most champion ICPR comes from their stance, not their fate/will. Try again.

It does kill their ICPR I didn't say it removed their ICPR, 300-400+ ICPR lost is quite a bit when your skills cost as much as a champs does which is the reason for the ICPR on stances in the first place. So if a average champ runs with ~150 will they are losing ~450 power along with that decently large loss of ICPR I don't know many champs that run with more than 2-2.2k power often less actually (just took a look at the OPs MYLOTRO he would be at 1111 power with that debuff according to that source). And of course I'm stretching a bit just like the OP but in a raid/most-of-the-game situation fear nothing is going to help champions more than guards. Try again.

FN is better for damage and ItP is better to prevent damage (given the right situations ect ect ect) seems like they fit in pretty well with the classes.

[Ioffryd]

ItP is (like so many other marginal skills, traits and legacies) situationally useful, but not a game-changer.

Like the little stance-based perks that come with the Warrior's Fortitude upgrade, it's a nice bonus but not much more.

I use it frequently when soloing; it's also useful in 3-spot instances, ad-hoc skirmishes with an odd mix of classes, or any other situation where you don't/can't have a Loremaster in your back pocket.

Had I been offered the choice, I probably would have prefered a fear-removal skill, but considering that it's more than what we had before (i.e., nothing), I'm not going to complain (much).

If they wanted to add another perk to it to correspond to the +pips on the Champ bonus, I'd say have it leave a short-duration buff of some kind. It seems to me that no sooner is a debuff cleared (with a potion or otherwise) than it gets immediately re-applied. I notice this most with the wolf/warg -% to movement speed. Totally annoying. I'd like to see ItP make you immune (or at least highly resistant) to wound-based roots and slows for a period of time after use.

[Eliel]

I agree the skill is underpowered, but I disagree it should clear Fears instead of Wounds.

1) That's a big assumption that you have a LM in the group. I often do not.

2) Wounds are still big deal. I still encounter them all the time.

The way I use the skill is as a backup Wound pot. If I have one wound, I'll always use a Wound pot. If I get another Wound before the pot cools down, I'll use Ignore the Pain. If I have two wounds when I start, I'll use Ignore the Pain to start.

I agree that the skill is underpowered. I'd like a shorter cooldown or a clear of more types of debuffs (maybe up to all 4 types, if it's a 5-minute cooldown, since we're usually getting hit with more debuffs than anyone else). At the very least, Deep Breath needs to reset it.

But as for swapping it with Fear removal? No. I'd rather stick with Wound removal.

[Perzes]

Just a few opinionated comments of my own:

1) I'm not going to compare this to a champ skill, because we could go on and on in circles about other classes skills and how they would work in certain situations if we had them...useless topic.

If you have problems removing -255 fate/will fear debuffs, then you're not a good guardian because you're not keeping an ample amount of pots of every kind. period.

2) I believe this skill was solely intended to be a moors skill to be honest. I can see no reason as to why I'd use it over a pot to remove a disarm(as pots are faster and this skill has serious animation lag), and very few mobs end-game give me more than one wound debuff. That being said, I love this skill in the moors. I have also never seen it only take one wound off like some have mentioned.

3) A 5 minute cooldown on this ability is a joke looking at other cooldowns we have(and their effectiveness) that have around the same cooldown time. This cooldown should either be lowered (3mins or so) or put on the same reset group as Deep Breath.

4) Adding some sort of small buff to this, like 500-900 wound resist rating for 30s-1m would be ideal, and would give it an even greater use.

[Eliel]

4) Adding some sort of small buff to this, like 500-900 wound resist rating for 30s-1m would be ideal, and would give it an even greater use.

I like that idea. Better yet, total immunity to the next wound effect. RKs already have a skill like that, so it's within the realm of the tech, and immunity to one wound effect is not considered overpowered.

[oopsies]

I play both classes often, and I will say that I use fear nothing more often on my champ than I use Ignore the pain on my guardian. However I think ignore the pain is more useful to a guardian than fear nothing is to a champion. Many of the wound debuffs in PvE are detrimental to a players b/p/e and giving guardians the ability to remove these debuffs helps make them better tanks. In PvP Ignore the pain can remove up to 4000 damage worth of dots from the guardian making them more survivable.

Champions on the other hand don't necessarily need to cure fears to be effective dps, -fate -will debuffs mess with power pool and regen, but champs can overcome this by using second wind often. When I use fear nothing on my champ I use it to achieve higher burst DPS rather than to cure my fears.

If fear nothing cured wounds instead of fears champs would have the best of both worlds, but I would still use it for DPS more often than I would use it for cures.