Advice for a new LOTR tank

[Katinalus]

Hi,
I just started playing this fine game a few days ago, i'm an experianced WOW player but have felt like playing somthing different. I mostly play tanks in WOW and so wish to do so in LOTR. I just have a few quick questions about tanking in LOTR

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?
2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.
3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)
4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

Thanks for your time.

[Perzes]

Hi,
I just started playing this fine game a few days ago, i'm an experianced WOW player but have felt like playing somthing different. I mostly play tanks in WOW and so wish to do so in LOTR. I just have a few quick questions about tanking in LOTR

Welcome to lotro first off I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my abilities, though I'm sure opinions will vary.

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?

1) Guards are special in the fact that they're equipped with many "snap aggro" skills that will allow them to gain threat back quickly, or overcome losing threat from other players. While these abilities aren't given to you until later in the game, and sometimes lower level tanking might be difficult, you'll still have the abilities end-game to do this and do it well.

2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.

2) While lotro has an amazing community, there are those players that can become disgruntled by newer players, especially in the main roles of tank and healer. Your best bet is to find a kinship(guild) that can house/facilitate you and are patient enough with you to give you a chance.

3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)

3) While some of the higher level instances can be done with just sheer DPS, I've always found having a tank for anything I do makes any run a lot smoother. They're needed for the higher level raids, and a good tank is hard to come by these days

4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

4) I discourage this method. While it might seem easier to figure out the game this way, if you want to play a tank...nothing should hold you back from that. The best way to learn to tank is just to get in there and experiment and experience it for yourself.

EDIT - The thing that I would encourage you to do, even if it isn't a tank class that you choose to play but with any class, is to continue to frequent the class forums. While we might seem critical and a bit harsh sometimes, constructive criticism is something that goes a long way toward developing those mastery skills if you use that criticism in the right manner.

Listen to what others have to say, believe nothing they say until you've experimented and proven it for yourself.

[Katinalus]

Thanks for your response The community here seems rather relaxed compared to WOW which is nice. I might stick with my Gaurdian then and see how things go.

[Crissaegrim]

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?

When a situation goes sideways in a group, a Guardian has more tools to bring it back in-line than any other class.

2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.

We have our share of ******* -- it's par for the course when you're dealing with people in any circumstances, not just gaming. A generally-held opinion however is that when learning new instances as a group or upon release of new content, a Guardian is highly desired to smooth-out the learning curve.

3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)

LOTRO was designed so that no class was absolutely necessary, and any role could be sufficiently covered by another class via their secondary role. Not as easily, mind you, but possible.

4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

Perzes gave a very nice submission on this, but I will add my own jaded aside: NOTHING you do as a DPS class will make you a better Guardian or how to better manage a group's threat during group play. Only playing your Guardian will do that.

[8skyfaller]

Welcome.

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?
2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.
3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)
4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

Thanks for your time.

1. No. Classes in LOTRO are generally resilient. You won't find WoW's survive-by-coincidence damage model here. At least not until/unless you visit the Vile Maw... (Incidentally, WoW will be imitating LOTRO's saner damage model when the next expansion comes out, but I suspect WoW tanks will still be staring at boss ankles.)

2. I think this is going to vary by server, time frame, and calendar date. LOTRO has its share of ... diversity. Gear porn in LOTRO is not out of control (yet) so snobbery over stats and gear isn't as bad. I think most people here will give you the benefit of doubt until they see you perform.

3. The majority of fights, from level 20 Great Barrows to level 65 raids, require tanks. But LOTRO has a fourth role in its food chain, and that's the debuffing role, and their contribution isn't trivial. As a tank, your mitigation characteristics are capped by itemization and contrived stat caps. So at the bleeding edge of the content, your quality alone will not win the day.

4. Tanking is a prestigous, accessible, and thus popular role, and lucky are they the ramparts to our spears that can find steady employ. There will be times when no one needs a tank, and times when groups in the LFF channel linger for an hour searching for one. For soloing, go for it, you are eminently viable; all classes are.

[Dom12]

NOTHING you do as a DPS class will make you a better Guardian or how to better manage a group's threat during group play. Only playing your Guardian will do that.

Mostly true, but playing other classes is the only way to really understand their capabilities and shortcomings. That fuller understanding will make you a better tank. I've only played hunter and guard to cap, but having a 65 hunter makes me a better tank for the hunters in my group (tho at the same time, it makes me more critical of poor hunters that I tank for). You learn quite a bit about other classes just thru grouping with them, but there's a lot that you'll never realize till you play them yourself. All that said, I do think you can be a very good tank without ever playing another class.

[Nemmerle]

The above answers seem to have been pretty spot-on for your specific questions, so I'll just add two more things.

A good tank is not 100% essential to the high-end content, but it sure makes it easier. Every group that tries an instance without one and then does the same instance with one notice the difference and fequently comment on it. The Guard is a relatively easy class to play and plenty of fun now that a lot of the horrible early deficiencies have been ironed out (I sure wouldnt want to level one again without Overpower, for example).

Second Point - the "grind" on the Guard is one of the worst in the game - you have to have absolute top-end gear, all your class trains, at least 7 or 8 virtues maxed and a pretty well-optimized setup to be really at your best. Other classes can be very effective with "average" builds, but the Guard cant hold theat well enough with average gear. If you're going to level a Guard, make it the FIRST character you do the horrible Grind on, not the second or third. You wont be too interested in getting the grind completely done again after you finish it on the Guard.

Traits
Armor (Moria Durin's Guard at least, if you dont get DN or BG armor)
Rep with Moria Guards, Galadrhim, and possibly Algraig for the Heavy Shield
At least 7 traits so you can retrait as needed
Class Legendary Skills (all of which are useful in certain circumstances)
Legendary Weapons (horrible grind to find good ones)
Legendary Relics (you want good Tier 7-9 relics in every slot)
Crafting Guild of choice (you really need the Crafted Relic of Battle)
...and probably more I've forgotten...

^^ That's a LOT of grinding.

[Jeffor]

Since you mentioned rolling a DPS class to get aclimated to LOTRO there's no need. If you want a little more DPS then you can equip a two-hander weapon and it will give you a nce DPS boost and make things easier on you when you are just our soloing and questing by yourself. Once you get to level 30 (I think. Been a while) you get a DPS stance that you can use and eventually you can trait yourself to increase your DPS even more. Guards have good diversity. It's one of the things I love about the class.

Welcome, good luck and feel free to ask questions here. We don't mind.

[Falori]

Crafting Guild of choice (you really need the Crafted Relic of Battle)

I think the 100 morale relic is acceptable(preferable?) for tanking. You give up some threat (from the added dmg) and FMs from TTK, but gain some survivability. The 20 Vitality works as well, but it's too easy to cap Vitality, so I like the morale one better.

Especially in tough fights (like Durchest) I'd rather have 200 more morale than a little more dmg and crit. For easy fights more threat/dmg is better, but then, they are easy fights so your set-up isn't that important anyways.

[hucklebarry]

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?

• Really depends. Your other group members will also make mistakes and often it will be your job to help correct it. The key is to not point fingers, but to overcome the battle. If the mistake continues to re-occur, then its nice to discuss things and make sure everyone is on the same page or someone possibly needs to learn something they didn't know they needed to. Don't be offended if someone makes a suggestion after you make a mistake. It doesn't mean you were a bad tank, it means they are trying to make sure you have an opportunity to learn why something may have been a mistake. Additionally, some content is more forgiving than others. A single mistake may cause a group wipe in one instance, while 12 mistakes can still equal victory in another. There are a lot of factors in how difficult you will find tanking.

2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.

• Overall, very nice. Don't be discouraged when you run into the know-it-alls or worse. There are some awesome people in this game.

3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)

• I agree with most here. Tanks are absolutely a necessity in some places, and they make content easier in all the other places. I don't think they ever make content more difficult unless there is a greater issue with the fellowship. I find all classes to be equally as important, but the tank spot does carry more responsibility. I've seen fail groups replace the tank and then win effortlessly. But I have also seen that with hunter, burg, rk... you name it.

4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

• You will never learn more about a class than rolling one. And it WILL make you better at tanking if you understand what skills others are using and how it impacts the group. When I played my mini, I used Inspire Fellows all the time, some times to start out fights. When I played a guard and it was my job to protect the mini... I learned how frustrating it is to over heal and why that skill has a time and place. I think I am a better tank from playing the mini and a better mini for playing the tank. Its also helpful to communicate. When I am the tank, I can ask the healer... 'please don't cast Inspire Fellows right when I pull' or I can ask the hunter, please don't start the fight off with penetrating shot and improved swift blow when all I have had a chance to do is fire a single auto attack. It really helps to understand what your fellows are doing and you can communicate with them to help the group become more successful. Some people honestly don't understand what they are doing is wrong... they just know the group isn't successful. Playing other classes really helps you be able to troubleshoot some of those problems. With all of that being said, if you enjoy the tank, play him... don't feel forced to know everything right away. It will all come in time.

[dhatcher1]

First and foremost advice for a WoW player switching to Lotro is - Relax, take your time, enjoy the journey. This is a game primarily about lore and exploring the beautifully rendered middle earth world. It is not a race to level cap with lots of endgame content.

Its also fairly casual combat. Every class can solo well enough. No content is so hard that a heavy tank is required for a strong group. Every raid boss has been tanked by a Hunter; Ranged bosses are often better tanked by hunters. There are a couple bosses that can 1 or 2 shot lights, but medium armored hunters, wardens and burglars are capable of tanking with strong healing support.

I strongly agree with the person above who said guards are most highly valued by groups that are new to content. Also if they are not strongly built for the content (bad group class mix, weak gear, etc). Once content has been mastered, other classes that bring more to the table than snap aggro and durability (like more DPS and utility skills) often take the guards tanking role.

This game is also well suited for playing alts. Alternating between 2 or 3 characters, even of varying levels, works well and keeps you from getting burned out on one character/playstyle.

[Nemmerle]

I think the 100 morale relic is acceptable(preferable?) for tanking. You give up some threat (from the added dmg) and FMs from TTK, but gain some survivability. The 20 Vitality works as well, but it's too easy to cap Vitality, so I like the morale one better.

Especially in tough fights (like Durchest) I'd rather have 200 more morale than a little more dmg and crit. For easy fights more threat/dmg is better, but then, they are easy fights so your set-up isn't that important anyways.

These are interesting points. I think you might well be correct, especially in a very well-seasoned group doing relatively hard content (e.g. BG, DN).

I find I like the additional 390 Melee Offense (equivalent to +39 Might but not subject to the Might Cap) to be more useful in the groups I'm in because (a) they're usually not that seasoned, and (b) I have to struggle to hold threat.

I have maxed level 65 second age weapons, full traits, etc, an excellent 1st age Belt with lots of +threat and usually even run in Threat stance. But the edge for holding threat is always right there...a big crit from the hunter and I still lose it. The extra DPS is more important to me than the higher survivability in the situations I'm in because it's often not about MY survivability - it's about how well I can keep the noob hunter in Strength Stance alive...

[Lupini]

NOTHING you do as a DPS class will make you a better Guardian or how to better manage a group's threat during group play. Only playing your Guardian will do that.

I'd argue that point a bit. A DPS class won't teach you more about being a guardian...it WILL teach you about other classes abilities to make your life difficult or easy.

However, I'm beginning to think everyone should have to play a guardian (or tank of some sort) through some group content--maybe a session play where you are tanking for Legolos and Gimli! Nothing makes you learn faster how to play in a group than knowing what the other classes are trying to do to also ensure the group's success.

[Vysion34]

If you want to play a Guardian, then play a Guardian.

Just make sure you always have a shield and one handed weapon, along with a two handed weapon to use with your Overpower stance you get at level 20.

Overpower is the Guard's DPS stance and can do some fairly good DPS when they stack bleeds on the mobs.

I'm always retraiting and using OP on my guard when I solo, and then I retrait and switch back to my tanking stances when I'm grouping.

[Vysion34]

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?

It all depends on the instance. A few of the Moria 6 man instances all depend on how good your tank is at picking up threat and holding it. But some other instances it is more up to the supporting classes to make sure the group doesn't wipe. Every class has a role.


2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.


You will come across some impatient people, and some patient people. Not everyone is the same. I have a guardian alt so I know what the guard should be doing in all the instances, so I will give advice to the rookie guards when I'm grouped with them with my champion if they have never tanked an instance before. This all depends on the person.


3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)


My opinion is that LOTRO is the same way. A good group starts with your tank and healer. As long as a good tank can keep mobs off of the healer, and the healer can heal the group efficiently then you can complete any instance in the game. When mobs start hitting the healers, and people start dying from the healers not getting heals off then it is certain you will wipe.


4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?


Viable to jump straight into tanking. Especially since Guards get their Overpower stance, and DPS trait line, and can DPS when they need to.

[Feanorion]

Hi,
I just started playing this fine game a few days ago, i'm an experianced WOW player but have felt like playing somthing different. I mostly play tanks in WOW and so wish to do so in LOTR. I just have a few quick questions about tanking in LOTR

1. How hard is it? If the tank makes a mistake or is slow to react does this mean a wipe is likly?
2. How nice if the player base in this game, If I where to tank instances I have never seen before is this likly going to cause issues with my group? Eg in WOW most people are very impatient and intolerent of new tanks.
3. How important is the tank in this game to the overall success in an instance? Or does the rest of the group play a big part in success (in wow its mainly healers and tanks)
4. As its my first time playing this game am I better just rolling a DPS toon till I get a better understanding of the game and classes or is it viable to jump stright into tanking?

Thanks for your time.

Hello. My name is Fean, and I am a recovering WoWaholic.

That aside, I can give you a perspective from the same direction: WoW-to-LotRO tanking. I am only level 22, although I could have been much higher level had I wanted to be. I am spending a lot of time running around mining ore in low-level areas to allow my brother and friends to catch up to my level so we can instance together. That said:

1) In my limited, low-level experience, you have all the tools you need even at low level if you plan ahead. Don't blow your load on the pull. You have one actual AoE taunt, and it is on a 45 second cd. Use it well, wisely, and sparingly. You have shield-taunt that procs off of a blocked attack; obviously, if you lose threat and a re not being attacked, it can't proc.

2) With few exceptions, the player base here is MUCH nicer, MUCH more polite than the WoW player base. No Barrens-chat; no trade-chat trolls. In the advice chat channel, people actually give--- are you ready for this?--- they give helpful, friendly advice.

3) Champions and Captains can off-tank, and are much more survivable than Arms/Fury warriors or Ret Paladins if things go bad. If you lose control for a moment, if the players of these classes are on the ball, they can save your bacon. However, if you play smart, you have the tools to allow you to NOT lose control.

4) Tanks tank. That is why I am here. Prot paladins got screwed up so badly with Cata that I no longer enjoyed playing Feanorion (Farstriders realm). I loved the warlock changes, and my primary alt--- my former main--- is an Afflock/Destrolock, so I considered making him my main once again. But I am a tank. I tank. I'm not dps. Not any more. Sooo--- I switched to a game where game play is actually FUN!!!

Pay attention to your Virtue Trait deeds. They are free buffs that you will want/need. You get a lot of the ones you need just by killing **** during the course of questing or farming crafting mats. The ones I focused on are Discipline, Justice, Valor, Loyalty, and Fidelity. Opinions vary on which ones are best, but these are ones that are most often mentioned by tanks FAR more experienced than I am.

Class Traits are unlocked by using your abilities a certain number of times. I will eventually get all of them, but initially I am focusing on the Defender of the Free traits for more threat. The Vexing Blow trait turns that attack into a 3-target cleave, as on example.

Gear: focus on gear with Might and Vitality. Might helps with threat and blocking; Vitality is the Con of LotRO. In-combat Morale Regen seems like a handy thing to have at low levels; not sure about high levels. Crafted gear is, at this level, better than any quest rewards I have seen. The level 18 Crafted Armor (I have all crit-success gear of this make) is outstanding. I am level 22, and it is still more than adequate, but is due to be upgraded soon.

[Katinalus]

Thanks for all this advice And Hi Fean, think I remember you maybe from the WOW forums, I used to frequent them to helping out new tanks and trolling elitists:P I have A pally tank called Katanalus and two prot warriors. Yes the new tanking changes got old fast. Im realy enjoying LOTR so much so I became a VIP member rather then free. Its good to play an alternative to WOW and not deal with the horrible people in LFD. The community and amosphere here is much nicer in comparison.

I am realy looking forward to tanking my first instance now, however I have no idea what they even look like, how mobs are grouped or what boss fights are like. I have read a few instance guides and they sound a little like the WOW ones, am I right in this assumption? Are most boss fights tank and spanks with groupings of trash mobs leading up to them?

Any info much appreciated.

[hucklebarry]

I am realy looking forward to tanking my first instance now, however I have no idea what they even look like, how mobs are grouped or what boss fights are like. I have read a few instance guides and they sound a little like the WOW ones, am I right in this assumption? Are most boss fights tank and spanks with groupings of trash mobs leading up to them?

Any info much appreciated.

Yes and no. Depends on the instance. The earlier the instance (the lower the level) the more straight forward they tend to be.

There is usually a catch in the boss fight, but sometimes the catch isn't all that bad.

In turtle, the catch is a poison dot that can't be cured that stacks over time until someone dies (you or the turtle). So the trick is, you are essentially timed.

In Vile Maw you have to kill certain things at certain times in between doing damage to a boss and remove corruptions (group coordination is very important - and this is a very simplified explanation )

In Some boss fights, you have to keep mobs together, sometimes you have to keep them apart. Sometimes you have adds, sometimes you have to move to avoid certain events, some bosses have to be interrupted, some have to have corruptions removed, some trigger events based on what effects are active on the group... etc.

So its hard to answer, but many of the bosses can, in fact, be blown through if the group knowledge and skillset is high enough.

[Feanorion]

Thanks for all this advice And Hi Fean, think I remember you maybe from the WOW forums, I used to frequent them to helping out new tanks and trolling elitists:P

Yes, I used to frequent the tanking forums. I was perma-banned for my views on Cataclysm. No joke: within 2 hours of someone starting a thread about how it looked like I was right about a lot of the changes, I was perma-banned, all my posts were deleted (no matter what subject) for the previous 9 months, and the thread of people claiming that I was right was deleted. That was about 4 months ago.

[Nemmerle]

I am realy looking forward to tanking my first instance now, however I have no idea what they even look like, how mobs are grouped or what boss fights are like. I have read a few instance guides and they sound a little like the WOW ones, am I right in this assumption? Are most boss fights tank and spanks with groupings of trash mobs leading up to them?

Any info much appreciated.

The early instances are straightforward linear fights - basically just killing an exceptionally large normal mob. Once you hit level 50 or so, the instance boss fights become much more complex. They are a ton of fun for the tank. Helcham, Thaurlach, Thrang, a few of the Moria bosses, the Watcher - all tremendous variety even before you hit the level cap.

Get ready to have arguments in your groups when the Hunter dies. The Hunter is GOING to die a few times, and he's going to BLAME YOU because you didnt hold threat. He's going to die because he's in strength stance, started the fight with Heartseeker and continues to use his maximum DPS rotation without any thought of even using Beneath Notice. You wont hold threat, and the boss will go bite giant chunks out of him. Be prepared for the recriminations, and then (calmly) remind him that Threat Control is a Fellowship responsibility, not a Guard-only responsibility and he needs to be in Precision or Endurance stance in a long fight if he wants to live through it.