XP Reducer

[Forjo]

I have no idea. We presented answers to every objection but they just fell on deaf ears. The strongest (and I use the term loosely) objection was that people would somehow "forget" that the toggle was on and play themselves out of content requiring them to grind.

But we provided many solutions to that.

Who knows? Maybe someone just doesn't want to admit that levelling happens to fast in this game. It's a bigger problem in STO since there is less content to begin with. But at least they appear to be considering it.

-Forjo

[Khafar]

Why do you think Turbine is not willing?

Fundamentally, I think it's because they polled this in a customer survey, and got very low interest in it. Floon certainly implied this, even if he didn't give the percentages. And nobody is going to claim this is a purchasing decision sort of feature for a game.

With a huge list of things they'd like to add to the game and limited developer resources, it's not too hard to see how it could fall off the "must have" list for Book after Book. There are enhancement requests in the system for the product I work on that have literally been there for 5 years. It's not that they're bad ideas, and it's not that they'd take some immense amount of engineering time. It's simply that other more important features and changes always cause us to get to "maybe we'll do it next time" over and over again. In truth, many of those will simply never get done.

Khafar

[FoxFire]

Fundamentally, I think it's because they polled this in a customer survey, and got very low interest in it. Floon certainly implied this, even if he didn't give the percentages. And nobody is going to claim this is a purchasing decision sort of feature for a game.

I don't know what their customer survey question was (which almost nobody who posts in the forums seems to have gotten), but if it was anything like the question they'd posed in an even earlier Ask the Community post, that could explain the low interest. In that question they asked who would like an item which temporarily disables mob-kill XP, and the majority said they probably wouldn't use such an item.

However, when they later asked do you think the leveling speed is Too Fast, Just Right, or Too Slow, a large percentage of players said Too Fast.

I suspect if they asked, "Would you like more control over the rate at which your characters level?", they would have a clear majority who would says 'Yes'. However, once you start asked about the specifics of how such a user-control would be implemented, you are going to get a lower favorability rate, as everyone has their own preferred idea on how to implement something like that.

And again, because many people don't look at the benefits something may have on the game, even to them personally, if it's something they wouldn't personally use, they don't speak up for an idea that would ultimately benefit them. Numerous ancillary benefits to those who don't use an XP Reducer (or Leveling switch), have been talked about, and even those who like LOTS of extra XP would benefit from such a feature as Turbine could heap on more XP bonuses, being that those who don't want that could opt out or otherwise slow their leveling rate to what they prefer.

[Darmokk]

With a huge list of things they'd like to add to the game and limited developer resources, it's not too hard to see how it could fall off the "must have" list for Book after Book.

But they already put in code to spend destiny points on increased XP gain.

It doesn't take a ninja macho master phd in computer forensics to figure that it can't be that hard to have the same knob - just with inversed sign. Aka spend destiny points on lower XP gain the same way you can spend them on higher XP gain already.

[Khafar]

Aka spend destiny points on lower XP gain the same way you can spend them on higher XP gain already.

Heh. If they actually made people use DP in order to reduce or stop their XP gain, players would be breaking out the tar and feathers. If they ever do this, it will need to be a toggle, slider, whatever, and it will need to just be in the gameplay settings somewhere. Or even just in the command-line interface.

I just don't think a high majority of players would use it, even if it were in the Options for the game. If that's correct, then as I said, it's not hard to see how it could fall below the cut line Book after Book. Turbine certainly seems to believe that's the case, and a customer survey is going to be much more reliable for judging that than some intense passion displayed by a small percentage of forum members.

Khafar

[Dago_Red]

And nobody is going to claim this is a purchasing decision sort of feature for a game.

You're wrong. If you can't control your leveling to the extent that you cannot progress through the game with your family, friends, lover, spouse, kin mates, stranger-you-meet-who-shares-your-interests, then you may well find yourself quitting... as all my RL friends have, every single one of them.

And that was after a while of trying to keep at level pace by either not playing or playing alts.

Not playing is quitting, so back to the original point about purchase, and playing alts is no solution. If you play them enough, they become a main attraction - and the problem still exists.

[Khafar]

You're wrong.

Maybe, maybe not. Anecdotes aren't a good way to make decisions - I'm talking aggregate importance here, not importance to some specific individuals. Turbine does exit surveys too, and I'd be rather surprised if "no XP toggle" or "no XP slider" shows up as a factor there more than once in a blue moon. If it does, though, you can bet this feature will be assigned a higher priority.

Proxy issues like "cannot stay at the same level as my friends" aren't really solved very well by an XP toggle anyway. That sort of issue is much better handled by a mentoring system, since that would allow an entire group of players (even in PUGs) to play content together at a specific level.

Khafar

[hex2323]

In theory, if you wanted to do most or all of the content on-level or below level, an exp stop button would be necessary. You could do as many quests as you wanted, get the rewards from that level range, and then turn it back on and get into the next range of content.

So, for a player who wants to do that, this is an excellent feature. And I suppose that for those who like the imersive nature of the quests and the game in general, it would provide much enjoyment.

But, if the time spent to implement that could be used to correct or improve some of the other areas of the game, or add compelling new storyline content at the end of the game, they almost have to focus on that first. No matter how small the amount of time and resources would be for an exp stop button.

I progress very slowly on purpose, and, yes, the ability to shut off exp would be nice. But I'd rather see new content and fixes to Legendary Items, and I'd want to have the maximum time and effort put into those areas.

If they could do both well, then hey, all for it, because it won't hurt anyone and I'd like it. But not if it takes even an hour away from other aspects of the game that need attention.

In short, I understand the desire for the idea, but it's not critical, even for those of us who actually would enjoy it.

[Dago_Red]

Maybe, maybe not. Anecdotes aren't a good way to make decisions - I'm talking aggregate importance here, not importance to some specific individuals.

This is one thread, of many (others of which have been closed or disappeared) now 56 pages long with little/no spam of requests and discussion around the idea of finding a way to have some user controlled XP gain.

One thread. And most players certainly don't even visit the forums. I only did for tech assistance at first, and then, because of this issue.

[Khafar]

This is one thread.

Yep. A thread I've participated in since day 1, and it's been driven by a modest number of posters (me included) arguing about the issue over the better part of a year.

I don't really care if they add this or not (as long as it doesn't take lots of development time), but I can see why it isn't a front-burner sort of issue. If they're going to address this, I'd much rather they "do it right" and put in a mentoring system. Yes, that will cost a lot more. But it will also help solve a lot more problems, from not being able to play at level with your friends to getting to "go back" and hit things you've missed along the way, to helping to keep old content available long after you've outleveled it.

Khafar

[Trilwych]

Huh, so I didn't participate in this thread. But I have in others that are concerned with leveling speed, XP gains, etc. I'm a proponent for more options to control XP gain/leveling speed, i.e. dialing down, since we already have both optional and forced variables to increase XP gain.

I'm sure a lot of detailed discussion has already gone on in this thread (I can't bring myself to read the whole thing, sorry), so I'll just repeat a post of mine that will get pruned:

TL;DR = "Hi, can we haz optchuns? "

Besides the usual statistical problems in informal surveys, the xp issue itself is complicated by multiple things--multiple inputs, multiple reasons, multiple options. (I also agree with others that neutral players most likely wouldn't be opposed, though I think a lot of people may not understand reasons for more xp control.)

I'm one of those who feels that leveling is too fast. My comparison isn't against just WoW and other games, though. Here is my own breakdown for the xp/leveling discussion, as disorganized as it is.

(A) Multiple reasons for wanting to throttle down xp gain

(A1) Stay on-level with content (soloers)

This is the reason that I've seen brought up most often, I think. The crux of this "on-level with content" reasoning is the idea that you want a proper, more immersive challenge as designed by Turbine (a side-effect for crafters is out-leveling your crafting ability and crafted gear too quickly). But this reason is also one that seems to get a lot of "anti" sentiment as well. After all, you don't need to do all the quests in a zone, right? However, no one, not even the "hardcore soloer," is asking that Turbine lower xp gain for everyone across the board. It's a matter of playstyle choice; moreover, anyone who feels this A1 camp is silly shouldn't ask for xp buffs in any form because that would be hypocritical.

(A2) Stay on-level with people (groupers)

A reason that doesn't seem discussed as much is the side-effect of grouping with people who invest different amounts of time in the game. I fall under this group. I'm fine with out-leveling content or skipping entire regions because, yes, I think replayability in any game is an important factor for retention. However, I usually game in MMOs with specific people--many players do, whether as husband-wife duos or larger kinships or whatnot.

Even though I solo pretty much 100% of the time now, I actually prefer small fellowship content; under normal circumstances, I consider myself totally a group player* because playing group content on-level with friends new and old is tremendously satisfying and fun. I usually grouped with two other people; we managed to stay close in level up to 40-ish even though I have a lot more time to play than them. I kept myself busy with crafting, primarily. But to complicate matters, since we wanted to stay on-level with each other, the entire group was limited to the lowest common denominator, which was the wife of the pair (which also meant the husband wouldn't play at all unless she was online). Long story short, I eventually gave up trying to stay at-level with them for a variety of reasons/causes.

I'm sure there are folks who fall under both A1/A2 camps.

(A3) PvMP

(I don't remember why nor do I understand the mechanics here exactly, but someone in the skirmish xp buff thread mentioned how they can't and won't skirmish because they want to PvMP at a certain level or something.)

(B) Multiple inputs and types

(B1) Quests

I think Turbine did well here in that they really encourage people to do the quests, which are written well, can be creative (not always kill-quests or deliveries), and are often quite immersive with the lore. The majority of xp gain comes from quest turn-ins, and it should stay that way.

(B2) Skirmishes

Skirmishes not only give mob kill xp but additional xp for skirmish deeds and the daily quest (probably for encounters as well). The reason why I'm listing this separately from both quest/mob xp inputs is because I believe the skirmish mob xp is actually buffed compared to world mobs, even without the current temporary buff (I noticed I gained xp very quickly through skirmishes pre-25%-buff at a rate I expected to only see from turning in quests). Skirmishes are a special input also because they're viable alternatives to accessing any number of things from class quest items to rep items to crafting materials to Legendary stuff... A player who wants an item they cannot otherwise gain for whatever reason (e.g. full fellowship questing) can skirmish, but if said player also falls under camp A1/A2 above, that's a problem.

(B3) Mob kills

World mobs from regular questing/farming give xp, which is affected by rest xp (see below). This xp is only a fraction compared to an actual quest turn-in, in general, but situations like craft farming (hides) and kill deeds quickly accumulate xp gain.

(B4) Deeds

Finishing deeds is like finishing a quest with an automatic turn-in, thus netting a chunk of xp.

(B5) Legendary IXP

Legendary ixp is a different type from toon xp and can actually be toggled off per item. All mob kills that give toon xp (green and higher difficulty) will give some ixp, whereas quests normally do not give any ixp unless they explicitly state so. When quests do give ixp, it's a substantial chunk. The thing about ixp is that many players will naturally attempt to level the LI faster (get the DPS up, etc.), so in most cases, while the ixp system isn't directly linked to the toon xp system, leveling your LI through skirmishes or repeatable quests will automatically bump your toon xp at the same time.

(B6) PvMP

Uh, I don't know how this works, sorry...

(C) Multiple current bonuses

(C1) Rest xp or "blue bar" (Enhanced xp)

Rest xp begins to accumulate after you've been logged off the game for a certain amount of time (an hour?). I believe there's a maximum one-level cap, and there might be additional rest xp bonuses if you log off in a city (not sure). Rest xp increases all mob kill xp gain (double) but does not affect quest xp gains--i.e. turning in a quest will merely bump up the blue bar's position. This is a global bonus for everyone.

(C2) Destiny points for "blue bar" gain

You can invest destiny points, earned primarily by leveling or PvMP, to extend your blue bar for more mob kill xp (Accelerated Experience). Starting out at level 10, you start out with five Accelerated xp perks; this refreshes at a rate of one perk every 24 hours. Since this is already an in-game option, I feel it could be buffed for folks who want faster leveling instead of creating global xp buffs since there are no options to tone down xp gain.

(C3) Temporary state bonuses

Every so often, there are special weekend, holiday, etc. buffs that range from something like 3% to 25% (current temporary skirmish buff). I believe these only affect mob kills, not quests, but I could be wrong. These kinds of state buffs are universal for everyone, and I wish I could "click off" the buff (like you can click off/remove buffs in WoW).

(D) Multiple xp control options

(D1) Complete experience toggle

This is the type of complete on/off xp switch that exists in WoW. It shuts down xp gain from all sources. I don't know the exact details of the mechanic in WoW, but the main possible problem I can think of is if people forget to turn on the xp toggle and turn in a quest, since quest xp is the primary toon xp source in LotRO; however, while that situation itself is a legitimate concern, the corollary argument of "too many customer service inquiries" is a poor excuse, IMO. That's kind of insulting. Arguing about the mechanics themselves is much more fruitful. For example, with a complete off switch, Turbine could make it impossible to actually turn in quests without a Las Vegas-style confirmation. Or look at whatever WoW is doing and consider their success and how people like/use the option.

(D2) Partial experience toggles

An option is partial toggling, such as switches for only skirmishes (if I want to farm marks but not gain levels like a fiend) or all mob kills (if I want to farm hides or do a kill deed without gain). This would, however, be a bit more problematic to implement due to additional complexity.

(D3) Experience debuff/buff

Destiny points already exist to buff gain, so I don't see why this couldn't be buffed further to help people who really want faster xp gain (e.g. for alts). At the same time, however, I feel in fairness that an xp debuff should exist to counter that option. This may not fit with the destiny point setup, but there might be a way to create a decent debuff.

(D4) Confirmation bottlenecking

This would be regular xp gain, but actual leveling would require active confirmation instead of just automatic dinging. When I first heard about this idea, I wasn't sure if I liked it, but then I realized this is really perfect as I read more comments about it. As a passive "switch," this particular option I feel is most elegant, obvious, and simple, and no one can "accidentally" forget this compared to a toggle because you already earned the xp. It's beautiful. Out goes the whole "customer service incidents" argument as well as complexity. And, yes, from my amateur point of view, this seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to program and implement. I personally favor this idea most for practical reasons.

*

Huh. I realized there's a problem with this idea: farming xp. It would be dumb, but I suppose it would be possible under this basic system to stop leveling at 30, farm only skirmishes for a month straight, and then super-level yourself to cap after accruing all that xp. I suppose a tweak would be limiting such a confirmation to quest-based xp only, but that still gets into the problem of mob/skirmish/other toon xp inputs. For an A2 "stay on-level with people" player like myself, this would be completely pointless because I wouldn't normally quest too much by myself anyway, which leaves all the other "I'll do this on my own time" activities--same old xp gain issue. Or the confirmation system could be applied in reverse, working on all toon xp inputs besides quest xp. Or, perhaps most easily, there could be a cap on stored xp in such a confirmation system.

All these multiple issues do complicate matters in terms of xp control, but I think it would still be worthwhile in terms of player choices and netting an even wider range of playstyle preferences.

The way traits and gear are done in this game, though, trying to scale the player toon to content as suggested previously would likely be a mess (what would you do with a LI, anyway?). But looking at skirmishes, it would be much easier for Turbine to scale content to level instead of idiosyncratic toons...

(D5) Experience conversion

It would be very interesting in terms of personalization to be able to convert toon xp to ixp or destiny points or some other currency, but I'll bet the programming would be an absolute bear. It would be like taking xp point gain and distributing among things besides toon xp, like legendary point distribution among legacies. But while it's a nice idea, I think it would be way too complicated to make happen (unless it's a pure one-way conversion, like toon xp to destiny points).

(D6) Mentoring

This would be a highly social resolution to on-level questing and whatnot. In an ideal world, having such a system would promote more player interaction, which is good in all sorts of ways from the "MMOs should be social games" viewpoint, but as Beldacar commented, doesn't necessarily help solo players (and nothing against them since I'm one now). And there would need to be decent rewards. Overall, from a practical standpoint, as wonderful as this type of option might be, it's probably far too complex a system to progam and instate into a game of this maturity. (Or maybe someone can prove me wrong there.)

(D7) Alts

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't a true option for controlling xp gain. If you're trying to level an LI, for example, it's tied to that toon so you're going to have to do stuff (e.g. skirmish) for runes regardless of toon xp gain; this would be problematic for A1/A2 folks. Also, if someone--mostly the soloer--feels leveling occurs too quickly on one toon, I don't see how it wouldn't be too fast on another toon and another. And eventually you'd run out of alt slots. Now, from a group perspective, if you're maintaining one toon for a group and playing a different toon at all "off times," then yes, alt-ing could be viable. But some people like myself prefer to group with our "mains" and leave alts for other things. In any case, this is a playstyle call as well.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled french silk pie.

[FoxFire]

Oh those lucky lucky bas****s who WON'T be VIPs (by monthly payments or by virtue of being lifetimers).

The NON-VIP players at LEAST get the courtesy of not having to put up with unwanted Rest XP.

Well clearly Turbine has had a means of turning off Rest XP, that was not made available to those of us who've never wanted it to begin with.

But now as a lifetime account holder I will STILL have to put up with it.

Thanks!

[Forjo]

Oh those lucky lucky bas****s who WON'T be VIPs (by monthly payments or by virtue of being lifetimers).

The NON-VIP players at LEAST get the courtesy of not having to put up with unwanted Rest XP.

Well clearly Turbine has had a means of turning off Rest XP, that was not made available to those of us who've never wanted it to begin with.

But now as a lifetime account holder I will STILL have to put up with it.

Thanks!

Yes, I noticed that too. Clearly SOME features are worth implementing. Even if those of us who actually want them are denied access to them.

Seconded.

-Forjo

[Gaming_Gal]

I had a hard and hollow laugh escape from me when I was first scanning through that tier chat and saw how VIPs would get rest XP, and only VIPs. I had to go back more than once to make sure there was no asterik somewhere about how VIPs would still get the option to turn it off (even by using those points, for cripes's sake).

I'm still a bit peeved about this, but it doesn't suprise me. We made the mistake of saying we'd pay for an XP toggle, and we will be microtransed to death so we can forever toggle rest XP off by being premium members instead of VIP. (If we go that route, of course.)

I guess this is a sterling example of be careful of what you wish for/offer/etc.

[FoxFire]

I couldn't imagine, should Turbine finally have seen the light that Rest XP is NOT a universally desired 'perk' (much to the chagrin of the original Developer's BRILLIANT notion that LotRO would stand out by giving such XP always and everywhere since CLEARLY who wouldn't want Rest XP, it's like saying you don't want air to breath ), that they would then make us spend points to Turn Off something they are giving as a 'Benefit' to those who become VIPs.

It wouldn't make sense, and quite frankly I'd be offended if they made us spend points to turn off Rest XP. That'd be like saying to club members who pay to become VIPs, "Here's a piece of cake, oh but if you don't want this piece of cake you need to cash in some of your club points so we don't cram the cake down your throat".

In FACT it should be the opposite, if you don't want cake privileges you should be afforded extra club points (if you don't want Rest XP, it should go toward accumulating more Turbine Points). Though frankly I'd be happy with simply the ability to turn it off. And even happier with other methods of controlling/slowing-down one's leveling rate.

[Celt_Ainvar]

You know all I still support XP reducer. I have 9 toons 4 I know how to use due to time I use them and learn them slowly. The same class players and toons I tend to have to tech them Due to the Power leveling Noobs.

The 5 toons I am in the same boat I leveled up way to fast. I want someone to be a teacher for me. I have every class toon All 9 toons. I am at level 38 to 40 and trying to understand what to do. Then the cost is going up high

Fact is I want to understand each class. My weakness class is Burgler, Champ, Gaurd, Mini and capt.

I want people to watch how my other class plays and go hay if you did this or that and help me.

[Tiempko]

Iffen you wouldn't mind . . . it would be nice iffen you would reconsider the possibility of some bit of programming that would allow those of us who enjoy a slower pace to play the type of game we would like.

The argument that it would be difficult to program seems lost in the fact that the premium and free players get to play without the burdens of rest XP.

And while one could make a case against the idea that this is something for a person to pay for with turbine coins of whatever currency is provided in the game, I'm not one who will be refusing it on that account. A potion or an elixer of some sort, a cup of tea, or a simple command that gives a player an option of reduced or no XP for some period of time would be greatly appreciated.

[duvelmoortgat]

Am sort of double posting this but thought it is worth repeating in such a main thread on the topic.

Someone mentioned that it may create a customer service nightmare for Turbine if people forgot to turn the XP on while questing etc and therefore unable to level up.

The simple solution to that type of issue is that turning XP off or reduced has to be done manually EVERYTIME you log on, and if you leave it off while logging off, you won't get any xp rest. However if you log on, it is automatically turned on again by default. Then you have to manually turn it off or reduced.

That is the best yet effective solution, people would notice immediately if they are gaining experience, so they would remember to turn it off. If they forget to turn it back on, it won't matter since it would be on next time they log on.

The exp gain would be minuscule if they forgot to turn it off, and if they forgot to turn it back on, the exp 'loss' wouldn't be much unless they are doing 24 hours marathon.

[auximenes]

I think a little pop-up icon whenever your XP-gain is turned OFF would be good, like when the server is crowded and the game cycles down on the settings to increase performance.

Another way of showing that XP-gain is turned OFF would be have a '0 Experience Points earned' output to the chat box, in place of the usual XP message.

[FoxFire]

I think a little pop-up icon whenever your XP-gain is turned OFF would be good, like when the server is crowded and the game cycles down on the settings to increase performance.

Another way of showing that XP-gain is turned OFF would be have a '0 Experience Points earned' output to the chat box, in place of the usual XP message.

Sure, or since people may not notice NO floaty XP numbers above their head, after you've defeated a mob, simply have it float "0 XP", or "XP Off" above their head. You're not going to miss that for long (unless you have those things turned off as well).

[Desere]

I'm just going to throw my hear into the ring but something really needs to be done.

At the moment, players who would like to play the lower content on level, or even just relive past glory on a re-rolled toon are just not getting the chance. I just rolled a new character who is 23 now and she hasn't even, even touched the old forest or parts far past local Bree Fields.

It boggles my mind the number of new (oh thank the gods for f2p that there is New players) that just miss huge sections of really great content, content that made the game, not because they don't have a map for it, or haven't brought the quest for that area, But simply because they see the mobs are grey and think oh it can't be very important.

Anyway that's my two cents worth... Please, Please, Please please me and consider some fore or XP reduction.

[macdadg]

Don't hold your breath. Turbine does things to get players to level cap, not to prevent them from getting there. On level content is easy enough anyway, does it really matter if you play content on level or a couple levels above it? There are multiple paths to get to level cap, and that's a good thing. If you despise the LoneLands, you can do the North Downs. If you hate Everswim, do the Trollshaws.

Completionists should not expect everything everywhere to be on level. They should expect to have to do trivial quest, grind gray mobs for slayer deeds, etc. That would make the game too much of a grind. If you had to do every quest in every area to reach the level cap, you'd get a lot less players reaching level cap. Options are good.

Besides, the bulk of the content that is redundant is 1-almost 40, which is just over half the game. After that, there is no alternate path to 65, you have to go through Moria.

[duvelmoortgat]

With the introduction of Tasks, one of the arguments against XP Reducer is now invalid.

The repeatable Tasks allows you to level up character if you happen to accidentally lock yourself at one level with XP reducer on.

Does this mean Turbine is indeed moving in that direction and looking to introduce XP reducer sometime soon? (Soon as in Soon, not Sapience's ridiculous Soon method)

[Darmokk]

The "accidentally locking into XP reducer" is the most ridiculous argument ever.

Just make it persist for the character's login session. Done.

If you allow us to spend destiny points on it the same way you can spend them on XP increase that would be perfectly automatic.

[Livejazz]

The "accidentally locking into XP reducer" is the most ridiculous argument ever

If I understand you correctly, I completely agree.

In EQ2, you can right-click on your XP bar & select several different options for XP reduction. That system has worked extremely well in EQ2 & is extremely popular. It's somewhat more relevant in EQ2 because of the Achievement Advancement system, but there's no reason it can't work in LOTRO too.

I think the arguments made against its inclusion in LOTRO are quite poor.