Bored at work

[darkplains]

In looking at the creepside list here's what I see:

Gnawu, Springteen, and Noobchops (see the share quality?) are the ONLY creeps that can make any claim to small/group or solo play. MOST OF THE REST are large group players or if they are in a group of 3-4 they hide in the NPC and pick of solo freeps. Zergers will rank, they will get new abilties, and they will continue to be...unskilled

This is not true. However since I have no idea who you are... I would assume you have not been on this server long enough to know who I am. Wait until I can get venom and blood out here a few times. You'll be wishing you were getting zerged.

[Abreen]

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps. The few freeps you've quoted as being small group capable are just freeps playing creeps. They have access to kins that will fightclub with them - feed them infamy.

Gnawu is almost constantly up at TR rez fightclubbing. He doesn't group much because that interferes with fightclub time.

Spingsteen, like all of TFF, checks in on vent first to see which side he is supposed to play, then makes a ton of mistakes and nerd-rages at the first creep he sees.

Noobchops has some idea of tactics and a voice that people will listen to, but only logs into creep-side for the late-late-show. He's slipped few times on voice chat talking about his 'main'. And realistically, the best way to learn freep tactics is to play a freep.

Hell, look at Evilbela the other night running from the TR rez to TR lawn and just standing there letting her friends farm reknown. Then when they had enough - or thought some other creeps were farmable, she flipped back to Bella. Like no one would ever know.

People play multiple creeps for DP farming. People flip back and forth from freep to creep. These are the facts of LOTRO life. Therefore, the data sets are invalid. No conclusions can be drawn from invalid data sets.

[Kaluu]

You all do understand that the OPs data set is invalid? The base assupmtion is that each player has only one toon. At least for the creeps, a player usually runs 3-5 toons so that they can get DP for multiple OutPost capture quests. That means the OP was only looking at 15-20 creeps, not 40-something. It's even possible that there are some people out there have more than one freep-toon. There's no actual way to figure out how many paylers there are on each side. Guessing doesn't count.

yes, the data would be invalid with your base assumptions as you state. But you can't take those base assumptions to invalidate all the arguments in this thread because several do not have those base assumption. Also, your base assumption are just as invalid in many situations. Also the initial post has been expanded upon and refined.

The other assumption is that freeps and creeps chase rank equally. They don't. Creeps need infamy to level, just as all you power-levelers needed XP. Creeps tend to chase infamy a lot harder than freeps chase reknown.

We are looking at infamy for creeps (which equal kills) to renown for freeps (which equal kills). The Surgi web site compares those two. If we could see the number of kills, it would be even more skewed since freeps are generally higher rank. Creeps get far more infamy per kill from a freep than the freeps do from lower ranked creeps. Yet freeps excell.

Yet, freeps still post all this rhetoric in a vain attempt to get creeps to just run up to them and die. It's not good enough for creeps to fight and die, they need to throw themselves at the freeps so that the freeps don't have to chase them ... to much work involved.

Actually I am a creep lol. Even my wife says so. I would actually prefer the freeps throw themselves at the creeps lol.

[edit] P.S. I forgot to point out that the original data sets are presented as disjoint. This is a fallacy. The sets do in fact intersect as many people play both sides openly. This widens the gap even further, decreasing the number of people playing just creep-side. In fact, I've only seen 1 person, maybe two, that plays creep exclusively. And even they have freep toons, though not in the Moors level range.

When creeps do play, they usually face far superior freep groups. Reasons being class make up, organization, op skillz, communication etc. Your p.s. only reinforces my point. Creep side is weak in many repsects. Number of toons on each side is the least of it and not pertininet. I am discussing numbers on each side that could be equal fights but are not.

Saying creeps suck on this server is much more analogous with saying Freeps suck at playing their creep toons on this server.

You lost me there. That statement is too broad and can mean too many things.

Many active creeps do not have freeps on RM. Many of us have not taken the time to level freeps. Previous posts have lamented the "outsiders" coming to RM on both sides. The freeps are just now getting to lvl 65 which is all you will see 99% of the time.

The creeps are still lower ranked. Part is due as you say to one player having many creeps, part is due to the length of time it takes to get infamy as a creep. Because it takes so long to gain higher ranks, many creep players have indeed leveled several characters to sig rank 3 and up to rank 5 to have available competitive classes. Ungreen you could say.

The thrust of the post was one of evaluating balance. If we are all going to be happy there has to be balance. The best battles are where there is balance. They are longer, produce more infamy/renown and are more entertaining. No one needs the yard stick I was playing with here to know that btw.

The premise that solo and small group play gives better infamy gain for creeps is only true if the solo/small group creeps are getting kills. That is real difficult against organized freep groups that are balanced. And freep groups are balanced because that is what they must have so they can be successful pve side.

True, many on the list are successful running in small groups, but that is only true for three reasons. One, because they skirt the perimiter of the big fights capitalizing on weakness while the majority of unorganized creeps are dying on sucide runs to get one or two kills. Two, and less important, they are successful at pairing off with another small freep group for equal private encounters. That is immaterial to points I wanted to discuss. Most importantly, they work together without which the first two would not be possible. This is what is often lacking creep side.

My conclusion hasn't changed. The past week has reinforced that in my mind. THere is far more infamy/renown from equally balanced battles over a long period of time. Equally balanced means many things. The better creeps work together, the more balanced battles we will have. It doesnt matter if the 8 or 12 freeps we are lookiing at are one or two groups. What matters is how to nutrilize them, gut them, and gnaw on their bones. that is some serious fun

[Kaluu]

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps.

true

But extrapolaitons can be made, hypotheses formed, and tested by observation on the server. The number totals are so skewed with any subset you can take as to be off the charts. I assume that can not be soley due from the actual number of creeps and freep players and each's number of characters alone. That is a reasonable assumption. Observation of server behavoir bears that out.

[darkplains]

Saying creeps suck on this server is much more analogous with saying Freeps suck at playing their creep toons on this server.

My freep toon is lvl 18 on this server. I know I must be a freep at heart....

[doug01]

This is not true. However since I have no idea who you are... I would assume you have not been on this server long enough to know who I am. Wait until I can get venom and blood out here a few times. You'll be wishing you were getting zerged.

If you still played here regularly you'd know who I am. The only time I've seen Khaos was for ~30 seconds when he ran right into an RI raid and got seriously zerged. Then (10 minutes later) you proceeded to rage post on the forums about it. After that, haven't seen you.

EDIT: You racked up a mighty 90 infamy on Khaos in the last 3 weeks on RM. I should be asking: "Who are you?"

If you're as good as you think you are then great. More skilled WLs in the moors the better.

HINT: Check my profile if you want to know my freep, I don't hide it like most.

[darkplains]

If you still played here regularly you'd know who I am. The only time I've seen Khaos was for ~30 seconds when he ran right into an RI raid and got seriously zerged. Then (10 minutes later) you proceeded to rage post on the forums about it. After that, haven't seen you.

EDIT: You racked up a mighty 90 infamy on Khaos in the last 3 weeks on RM. I should be asking: "Who are you?"

If you're as good as you think you are then great. More skilled WLs in the moors the better.

HINT: Check my profile if you want to know my freep, I don't hide it like most.

Yeah I kinda let go of the fail pvp on this server a month or two ago... I was kinda hoping it would pick up.

However, I am quite proud of that 90 infamy I must say. I soloed it all you know.

[Davarto]

Nothing was proven. You can't prove anything on an invalid data set. We don't have any idea of how many actual creeps there are, let alone how many freeps. The few freeps you've quoted as being small group capable are just freeps playing creeps. They have access to kins that will fightclub with them - feed them infamy.

Gnawu is almost constantly up at TR rez fightclubbing. He doesn't group much because that interferes with fightclub time.

I love it when people who know absolutely nothing about you, can read your thoughts and have you all worked out lol

I have no idea what this fightclubbing is you speak of??

I must be doing that with all my freep friends in my kin I suppose?? Well if my L24 warden, Wardwee was even in a kin....and I even had any L65 freep friends on his list lol

The only freeps I'm fighting at TR rez, are the ones that are hugging one shots because we have them outnumbered and boxed in there. Sometimes anywhere in the Moors you may get a freep who you have battled for along time out here, when it is really slow, steps forward and gets your attention by jumping to 1 v 1 you.
That happened to me yesterday outside Lug, when Fishbait spotted me thru my stealth and didn't call the others in to zerg me.

If you are talking about going up to Candy Mountain to 1 v 1, I have been up there twice, for about an hour at a time, and I only knew about it because it was mentioned in OOC.

So get your facts straight, I can only assume you are one of those handful from OOC who take offence to those who prefer to group small or solo, and don't feel the need to raid ALL the time. I myself have been frustrated in raids of late, through no fault of my own, I can't communicate via voice, so when I attempt to call out a target in raid chat, or offer any suggestions, it is completely ignored, so I find I have zero impact anyhow. And the type of focus fire you get from pouncing a target can't be countered by healing, so there is no benefit at all from me being in raid in that senario, its just a very frustrating experience.

[doug01]

Yeah I kinda let go of the fail pvp on this server a month or two ago... I was kinda hoping it would pick up.

Well, its kinda odd that you we're one of the originals to play here and set the bar for "fail". Thanks! But have no worries there are better creeps playing now and PvP is improving now that, well, the originals have moved on.

However, I am quite proud of that 90 infamy I must say. I soloed it all you know.

Actually it was 55 one week and 35 another. So I know you didn't solo any of it.