Kin Sanctioned Spying?

[Lunatuna]

Let me start by saying that I know from personal experience raiders need Destiny Points, and that the Moors is a great place to get them. But in my raiding kin on Arkenstone, there were two Moors-related activities that would get you booted from the kin - farming alts (or cooperative friends) for reknown/infamy or spying for the other side. Why? Both of these activities were considered cheating and harmful to LOTRO’s already fragile PvMP experience.

While I’ve been a subscriber since launch, I haven’t played a Freep in the Moors since the level cap was 50. I usually PvMP when the regular PvE game gets boring, and have spent significant time creepside on Landroval, Arkenstone and Elendilmir. While I’ve seen kins come through to farm DP, last night on Riddermark I saw what appeared to be the most blatant act of spying I have ever seen.

Here is what I observed. After taking LC and TA, a group of freeps decided to switch sides and flip them back on their creeps. One joined the pre-existing creep raid, then dropped after a few minutes, saying he was in the wrong raid and was supposed to be in the Righteous Indignation raid. Then after a few more minutes, the RI raid disbanded and all the members joined the creep raid. The combined raid then proceeded to flip LC, TA and River Outpost. So far, so good.

At this point, the raid leader decided to flip a second outpost so creeps could enter the Delving. Some folks called it for the night, and one person said something to the effect of ‘we’re going back to Freeps, we have something to do’. That something turned out to be flipping back River Outpost, LC and TA to blue again.

If the raids had not combined, it would have been a simple DP farm strategy. But the fact of the matter was the members of the RI raid went immediately back to freepside with intel they gathered as creeps - the very definition of spying. They knew the exact composition of the creep force, including who was logging for the night. They knew where we were headed next.

Granted, I don’t know all the individuals involved. Not all the freep raid members necessarily belonged to Righteous Indignation and certainly some members of RI have more integrity than to cheat.

I’d love to hear from Jeebus whether this was a kin sanctioned activity.

[doug01]

...interesting stuff....

I was in the first freep raid (raid, as in 8 ppl) that flipped LC and TA. After doing so most of RI left to run 2.5.5. After that they decided to roll some creeps (made a tribe and all). They then proceeded to flip the map points as you indicated. All is good right?

I dropped to a different channel in vent with Shish (warden) because we stayed freep the whole time. When RI decided to roll back to freep and come back out I re-joined vent with them.

Heres the extent fo what was discusses:

Me: I can't find creeps anywhere
Jeebus: Well, there was a bunch out there with us so they have to be somewhere.
Me: Well, I'm telling you they are gone.
(At this point me and Shish, and just us, got zerged by 6 creeps rolling AEOP. We had roamed the ENTIRE map looking for the missing creeps)
Me: Found 6 at AEOP. Died.
Someone: Theres more than six out there.
Choas: Maybe they went to the delving since they had the map control points.
Other: Well, thats lame, we were hoping for some fighting since the numbers would have been even.

Final Decision: (Mind you, we had 10 ppl grouped up looking for something to do) Well, lets roll back the map points.

The end.

Now that may not be exactly the dialog but the jist is there was no "spying". RI knew the numbers where heavly favoring the creeps, rolled over to freep and came out to find an empty moors. If you'd like I can post a screenie of ~20+ creeps facerolling An (and me)!

I think you're being overly suspicious.

[end long post]

[Lunatuna]

Hmm, ok. So the group that flipped River OP while we flipping AE wasn't RI? (Creeps never actually had 2 OPs at once).

[lungboy]

After we ran 2.5.5 we decided to come out and play with our creeps for a bit. When we got there there were no freeps in the zone so we decided to flip the map for DP. There was a group already going and rather than be snobby or elitist we decided to join the existing creep group rather than insist on only grouping with kin/tribe members.

With the numbers of creeps out and many complaining in OOC about the lack of freeps, we decided to flip back to our freeps and push keeps to get some good fights going.

We had left before they had decided what to do next. There was a couple of kin still on vent and on creepside that offered to let us know where the creeps were headed but we declined for the exact reason that we don't spy. We flipped river outpost to let them know we were still in the zone and moved around a bit to try to find anyone.

No luck, so we pushed TA hoping to flush some creeps out and got nothing.

So no, no spying from RI. Think about it, if we knew where you were headed and flipped to use the intel, wouldn't you expect that we would have met you at the outpost you were flipping?

[Lunatuna]

Well, I am truly relieved to hear that in this case, appearances were deceiving.

[kenred271milops]

Spy all you want in my book, the more you know the more freeps might come out and fight....its hard enough to lvl a creep in RM as it is for the lack of battles.

[Abreen]

Deb is flat out lying.

Badori, when you got steam rolled the RI people were still on creep-side. So, when they flipped to freep there really weren't many creeps left online. If it's 20-5 creep favor and 10 people flip to freep and 5 creeps log out that switches to 15-5

After taking LC a lot of creep started dropping group and logging off. Most realized they didn't have to group to get DP for taking TA. I was certainly disgusted at the thought that these guys were gonna just flip back to cap keeps.

I really don't want to see Riddermark devolve into every other server where it's the norm for people to flip back and forth just to capture keeps for infamy. It certainly speaks to the need for some other pool of points that only creep toons can tap into.

As a plus, I noticed their tactics really sucked. They seem to have this crazy idea that creeps just muscle through every encounter.

[lungboy]

Deb is flat out lying.

Badori, when you got steam rolled the RI people were still on creep-side. So, when they flipped to freep there really weren't many creeps left online. If it's 20-5 creep favor and 10 people flip to freep and 5 creeps log out that switches to 15-5

As I seem to recall, the AEOP capture notice was roughly 3 seconds before the ROP capture notice.

So either we were able to log out, flip to freep, port to the zone, form group, ride down, kill the tyrant and flip the flag in 3 seconds.
or...
you are wrong.

Personally, I'm going with the first option because it makes me seem like superman.

[doug01]

Deb is flat out lying.

*shrug* looked right to me.

Badori, when you got steam rolled the RI people were still on creep-side. So, when they flipped to freep there really weren't many creeps left online. If it's 20-5 creep favor and 10 people flip to freep and 5 creeps log out that switches to 15-5

My appologies if I inferred otherwise (I know I didn't say so). From what I read, there where two creep "raids" that merged. I ran into that merged raid just to harrass Jeebus a bit. I never actually counted how many there were, but it sure looked like 20+ on my SS.

So, if one creep raid (RI) leaves doesn't that leave one still there? Now, it was never discussed (as I noted) what the remainng creeps where doing, whether it be logging off, DoF, rolling OPs, etc.

No one is disputing that there were to few creeps to put up a fight. Thanks for noting that. Does that change anything since we (RI) didn't know that? Nope.

After taking LC a lot of creep started dropping group and logging off. Most realized they didn't have to group to get DP for taking TA. I was certainly disgusted at the thought that these guys were gonna just flip back to cap keeps
I really don't want to see Riddermark devolve into every other server where it's the norm for people to flip back and forth just to capture keeps for infamy. It certainly speaks to the need for some other pool of points that only creep toons can tap into.

Well, creeps side is great way to get DP and we do use it in our raid efforts. Sorry that disgust you so. I will add that if you see a Cool-Aide Man Raid (RI Creeps) chances are they are taking keeps/OPs/etc. Ask to join them, we/they are about the most easy going people you'll find. You can cash in on that DP farming too.

As a plus, I noticed their tactics really sucked. They seem to have this crazy idea that creeps just muscle through every encounter.

The numbers advantage you had in that raid really didn't require anything more


Side note: If you don't know it; your posts seem to be very filled with:




<nerd rage .gif removed, was making me dizzy>

[Hadawhore]

Just noticed this post and thought I would clear up some things.

First off, as Deb and Badori have confirmed, there was absolutely no spying in the Moores last night. We (RI) decided to roll a Creep Tribe after a 12-Man Barrows Down Skirmish named "Kool Aide Mans". We switched over to Creeps not even expecting to do much other than gather a couple destiny points or money to buy some skills. Only 4 of our RI Members in our Group have experience on Creeps. The rest of us (myself included) are complete N00bs.

We headed out to start as our Kin, but decided to join the other Creep Raid (to be social!) for whatever they were doing, in hopes that there would be a Freep opposition to play around with. I believe we had about 6-10 RI Members who logged over to Creepside to create Creeps and join the newly created Tribe. I believe the Raid we joined easily had 20+ Creeps. Once we realized that there were only 2 Freeps out there, we made the decision to go back to Freeps to hopefully spark some epic battles since the numbers would be remarkably even for a change. Keep in mind that not every RI Member on Creeps went back on Freeps. We had 6 people who decided to go to Freeps and another 3-4 who joined us through OOC.

We grouped up and traveled to an outpost to take it in order to let the Creeps know there were some Freeps out ready to battle and have a good time. Nobody answered. We walked around the Map in hopes of encountering the large Creep Raid, but we discovered nothing. Out of boredom, we decided to take TA in hopes that maybe ... just maybe some Creeps would come out and play. We made a horrible Tyrant pull in TA - as little as 3 Creeps would have wiped what we were doing. In fact, we lost 2 Members from our Group to the Tyrant and the trash we pulled with him. :-) Once we were done at TA, we decided that nothing was going to come out of the Moores, and most decided to call it a night. 30 Minutes later, we hear that the Creeps are back out in force.

Now you can read into this how you want, but it is exactly as Deb, myself and Badori have laid it out. There was no spying nor were there any intentions to do so. We were having a great time as a Kinship and decided to create our Creep Tribe. Now I know certain people will absolutely refuse to believe what we say, and that's fine. We'll settle this in the Moores may it be as Creeps OR Freeps.

Luna, I appreciate your post as well as your concerns. I would expect nothing less from a great person who wants to make Riddermark the most amazing Lotro Server ever. As I have said before, RI is on the train to follow your vision and expectations. We're here to lead and have fun. We highly look against cheating or exploiting of any nature. We believe that the Moores' is a place for both sides to gain. It's nearly impossible to get a 100% fair battle out in the Moores, but it's something we hope to encounter. Having both a great Freep Kinship and a Tribe, we hope that we can 'even' our the playing field a bit if needed. We want epic open-field battles away from keeps. We want to have fun where both Freeps AND Creeps gain Infamy and rank.

As always, if anybody has any questions - concerns - comments - or you just want to flame me .... you can contact me on my many toons. Jeebus - Serenity - Battery or Kant.

Thanks again, Luna. Let's continue to strive to make the Moores' the best experience and live up to what the Riddermark Server is all about. Though we may be in different Kinships or Tribes, we are all here on the same server .... and the only way to help this server succeed and live up to the expectations is to work together. See you all around Middle-Earth!


Righteous Indignation ROCKS!!

[fireball4008]

My kin sanctions and even encourages kinmates to spy.

[lungboy]

Let that be a lesson to you all. Mess with RI and we get Jeebus to write a four page volume that assaults your eyes with wallotext damage.

I hope you have all learned your lesson!

[Davarto]

Let me start by saying that ....

You go girl!! Its good to see more constructive and controlled arguements coming from our
side Well its not like I can be relyed on for that lol

...oh an btw, does every single lotro name u create need to have a "u" and "l" in it?? lol

I'll save you a good burrow spot

[Davarto]

Let that be a lesson to you all. Mess with RI and we get Jeebus to write a four page volume that assaults your eyes with wallotext damage.

I hope you have all learned your lesson!

Well I just wanna say that our Purl got it right first time!! yay

how many edits did it take your Jeebus?? :P

If we can't own you with our DPS, we can sure beat you with our corect speeling and grandma!!!

[Lunatuna]

Thanks for your response, Jeebus. I think we are on the same page - fair fights are more fun! Challenges conquered honestly are more satisfying.

I am hopeful the PvMP revamp coming with Isengard gives Freeps more motivation to come to the Moors. Having some high ranks on both sides could really spice up the action on Riddermark.

p.s. The Wall of Text skill is overrated. What I really fear are burgs and LMs ;p

[DJ1125]

Well after i read the OP, i skipped all the replies so i apologize if i missed anything good.
Clay and deb have been out leading creepside raids trying to get us stabilized. I know the RI freeps did not come over to spy. They simply wanted to get some action going in the moors, no harm done. I know it may have seemed suspicious to some, but they had good intentions, they're good guys

[Noobsteak]

Seconded with Conj above. Smallish pop server is going to have people flipping sometimes to try and find a fight that works for them. No biggie.

[RGilthanas]

Well after i read the OP, i skipped all the replies so i apologize if i missed anything good.
Clay and deb have been out leading creepside raids trying to get us stabilized. I know the RI freeps did not come over to spy. They simply wanted to get some action going in the moors, no harm done. I know it may have seemed suspicious to some, but they had good intentions, they're good guys

Oh my god, I think you may have broken some rules or something. You can't be a creep and say some freeps are good guys!

.

[doug01]

Oh my god, I think you may have broken some rules or something. You can't be a creep and say some freeps are good guys!

.

When he says "good" he really means tasty.