Raiding Loremaster

[Brelithion]

There should be no right or wrong build. This is a GAME. It is about people having fun with their time, that they spend money to enjoy. It is not a job that should obligate certain actions. If the option for a build is included in the game, it SHOULD be open for play in the game.

Right. And a raid should have the right to decline your services if a LM with a build more suitable to their tastes is available; given the ease of retraiting, finding one wouldn't be difficult. While my kin only brings one LM for raiding, there are plenty that bring two--only one of which needs to be AM, because your debuffs don't stack like, say, a burglar's. You can be the powpow dps look-at-me-I'm-a-fire-mage LM. (insert old style rolleyes because the new one stinks)

[Incanus-the-red]

Sorry to disagree with you, Mr. Magoo; but a raid is bringing you along because you have skills they need, not because you can light stuff on fire. If they wanted pure "magic" they would bring a DPS-spec'ed RK and be done with it. For a raid to be challenging, it has to push 12 people to their limit. Turbine has to ensure that every class has a purpose or you quickly get into a situation where one class gets put on the sidelines. Just ask the tanks in the VM 1.0 days when the corruptions were broken and everyone was range-tanking the Vile Maw. In BG, burgs have somewhat been relegated to this role because they are not "absolutely" essential. Now I don't want to get into a nasty name calling match with my friends who are Burgs. They know as well as I do that taking away their ability to do CJs has completely nerfed them in raids.

If you refuse to change your traits to conform to the job that the raid needs, they are more than justifed in filling your position with someone who will; or at the very least, taking in a true DPS class in your place. It sounds like you really want to play the game one way only. That's fine. Play the game the way that you want but don't get angry when you get locked out of the end-game content because you won't adapt your playstyle to be benefitial to 11 other people who are relying on you to fulfill a role that only a LM can fulfill.

[mrmagoo421]

It's not just traits though. I am also constantly told to replace my armor with 'raid suitable armor' (I have no shortage of radiance in my setup so that isn't the issue), and replace my LI's with separate LI's for raiding. It would literally cost dozens and dozens of hours of my time to conform to outside wishes for what my character should be for raids. It is demands to build a whole new character basically, that is to dedicate weeks of my life into making my character into someones elses character.

If turbine only intended one build to be played, why give options for others? Clearly that wasn't the intention of the developers when they gave us multiple builds. It is really the community of players themselves that are the issue. In no other MMO have I ever been told what my character should be built like to participate in content. Only in this MMO is it an issue. It's certainly not just with LM's either. Every character I have ever brought to a raid in this game, I am told to rebuild my toon. Just most aren't as drastic as being told to replace 80% of your gear and all of your traits like the LM is.

Honestly, it's simply not worth the hassle. The rest of the game is fun. Raids have become anything but.

[Thorazine]

There are a few different sports in LotRO. Golf, Fencing, Football. If you like to golf, great. Wear whatever clothes you want, hit the ball with a piece of driftwood...it's only you. If you want to play football put on your helmet and pads, know your role, and do what the coach tells you, because there's a bunch of other people whose evening depends on you.

The rewards of successful team play are only obvious to those who enjoy it. If you don't, remember you have nothing to prove to anyone but yourself.

And if LM multi-tasking/retraiting/wipe-proofing has got you down, roll a hunter and pew-pew all the way home

[Comma44]

So the delima is this. To raid or not to raid.

At the end of the day the choice is easy. I simply stopped raiding.

I love it when people answer their own questions... especially within the same post.

[cwswim03]

It's not just traits though. I am also constantly told to replace my armor with 'raid suitable armor' (I have no shortage of radiance in my setup so that isn't the issue), and replace my LI's with separate LI's for raiding. It would literally cost dozens and dozens of hours of my time to conform to outside wishes for what my character should be for raids. It is demands to build a whole new character basically, that is to dedicate weeks of my life into making my character into someones elses character.

If turbine only intended one build to be played, why give options for others? Clearly that wasn't the intention of the developers when they gave us multiple builds. It is really the community of players themselves that are the issue. In no other MMO have I ever been told what my character should be built like to participate in content. Only in this MMO is it an issue. It's certainly not just with LM's either. Every character I have ever brought to a raid in this game, I am told to rebuild my toon. Just most aren't as drastic as being told to replace 80% of your gear and all of your traits like the LM is.

Honestly, it's simply not worth the hassle. The rest of the game is fun. Raids have become anything but.

You should do raid skirmishes chief. Then you can boom boom sizzle sizzle all you want. No debuffs required at all.

the above is the perfect example of BOTH the kind of player who should not want to raid and the kind of player no raid should want. if you are this kind of player, you should not join raids. if you are a raid leader and see this kind of player, you would be well advised to boot him from your raid immediately. to do so would be win-win for both the raid, whose performance would massively suffer from this kind of player, and that individual player, whose enjoyment would be hampered by raiding necessities.

if you're a player of any class that's more interested in a narrow, unadaptive, role-play-primary-rather-than-full-use-of-available-class-skillsets style of play, raiding is not suited for you and you are not suited for for raiding. period, full stop. you can have plenty of fun in other aspects of the game.

Yep, booting people who wont retrait is Raiding 101

I love it when people answer their own questions... especially within the same post.

Maybe he was posting a hypothetical for all those LMS on the fence and then answering with his own opinion. Personally, I find swapping roles a lot more fun. Sounds like Magoo should have rolled a champ.

[Comma44]

Maybe he was posting a hypothetical for all those LMS on the fence and then answering with his own opinion. Personally, I find swapping roles a lot more fun. Sounds like Magoo should have rolled a champ.

I get this feeling like you're following me. Also if he rolled a champ he'd probably trait ONLY deathstorm and complain that no one will take him to turtle.

[mrmagoo421]

the above is the perfect example of BOTH the kind of player who should not want to raid and the kind of player no raid should want. if you are this kind of player, you should not join raids. if you are a raid leader and see this kind of player, you would be well advised to boot him from your raid immediately. to do so would be win-win for both the raid, whose performance would massively suffer from this kind of player, and that individual player, whose enjoyment would be hampered by raiding necessities.

if you're a player of any class that's more interested in a narrow, unadaptive, role-play-primary-rather-than-full-use-of-available-class-skillsets style of play, raiding is not suited for you and you are not suited for for raiding. period, full stop. you can have plenty of fun in other aspects of the game.

To be honest you completely miss the mark with me. I love team play, and I'm very good at it. I am one of the go to guys for leading groups in any 6 mans. I have very high awareness of where each of my teammates are at and their strengths and weaknesses. I utilize my character as it's built to the fullest. I utilize those in groups I'm running to their fullest, without ever asking them to re trait (though making sure to always look at their traits so I can know what to expect). Hell I remember the riot hundred plus man raids in AO were when that's what was needed to take down The Beast in it's early days. You want to talk nasty raids, that was a challenge beyond anything I've encountered in LOTRO.

What I am not good for is cookie cutter play. I love casual raids. The type where you get bunch of friends and a few strangers together where everyone takes their favorite toon and you go have fun. Success or failure at dropping the final boss isn't the metric of success, the good time had by the players is. Hell normally the wipe sessions are more entertaining then the successful ones. The cookie cutter by wrote this is what the textbook says we need, who cares who's playing the toon as long as the warm body hits the right 3 buttons at the right time everyone focused singlemindedly at not leaving their chair while grinding strait to the glorious victory thing isn't for me.

Half the fun is finding new ways to do things. Of course we could all read and walk through and do exactly what it says. What's the fun in that? That's not enjoying a game, that's doing a job. I want people to play the characters they enjoy, built the way they enjoy playing and find the way to make it work. That's always been the raid experience for me in other MMO's, but seems to be the antithesis of the LOTRO community's viewpoint on raiding.

Of course, we can just sling insults at people who have a different viewpoint then us as some of the esteemed members of this forums seem to prefer. It takes people with all viewpoints and playstyles to make a community work. Maybe if people were willing to accept other viewpoints, everyone would actually have the option of enjoying the full experience.

[Incanus-the-red]

No one is throwing insults. The OP was originally entitled "Raiding Lore-master". Those of us with current raid experience in BG (which is the only at-level 12 man raid instance) were simply stating our opinions on whether or not it was correct for a LM with little or no raid experience to be forced to retrait so they can fulfill a role in the 12 man raid. No LM who has raided at level in the Rift, Vile Maw, DN, or BG will tell you that they didn't have to retrait from their standard DPS build they use for solo'ing to a build specifically tailored for the raid instance they faced, at least in the early phases while the raid was learning the strategies required for success.

I bet if you watched every video available for how to beat the Blind One in DN or the LT in hard mode in BG, you might see a small amount of variation between how all of these kinships have completed this content. The reason that many of these videos will look the same is because the dev's developed raids that were very challenging and left only a few ways to solve the dilemmas they created. You have to space yourself out in the beginning of the Blind One fight because otherwise the eyeballs will bounce around your raid and kill everyone.

Back before Moria was released, if you planned on raiding in the Rift with your LM and you didn't equip Proof against all Ills, you were told that you had to go back and retrait. Why? The wounds came so fast on some of the bosses that your group would wipe if you couldn't spam wound removal for your main tanks.

So if you think that you know better than the LMs or raid leaders who have been raiding in BG since January of 2010, and refuse to change your traits, even though you have never been in BG; I'm telling you your arrogance or stubbornness is going to doom your raid. Your refusal to play your role as part of the raid is going to sink your raid before you can even get to Durchest.

No one is telling you that you can't spec your LM however you see fit. Almost all of the fellowship content can be completed with any collection of classes so they don't make it imperative that you have a LM or Hunter or Burg or any other specific class to be successful. They typically only require DPS, healers, and tanks. All the utility classes simply make things go smoother. This experience is NOT duplicated in raids. In raids, you have a very specific class selection that is required and everyone must play their class. Now no one is going to tell you that you can never cast Burning Embers or Cracked Earth during a raid. But they may tell you that they need Stun Dots kept up on the main tank at all times so please equip Dunadan Learning (so it doubles the time that the dot lasts). If you refuse, you can still keep the Stun Dot up the entire time but it is much more challenging.

In conclusion, you have every right to play your LM however you see fit. And in solo'ing or fellowships, it probably won't matter. Raiding in the at-level raid instances requires you to play your role, be a part of the team, and listen to your raid leader. These instances are rarely PUG'ed successfully. For the raid instance to be challenging to highly motivated and talented raiding groups, it must require a level of teamwork that PUGs or casuals can rarely achieve. So you are welcome to talk all about "Lore-masters in Fellowships" but leave the "Raiding Loremasters" to those people who have actually raided on their Lore-masters.

[mrmagoo421]

Of course the assumption that I have never played on level raid content. Hate to tell ya, that simply isn't true. There isn't a raid I haven't completed. People sure want my HoH cappie all the time or my gamble burg. Funny enough, I've done all the other raids on level over time to with various toons as well, even doing watcher runs in the early Moria days as the only LM in the group traited as I am.

Yes people were intentionally being insulting to me. All the 'this dude should just make a pew-pew and even then he'd suck' are intentionally insulting statements whether you want to see them that way or not. A nuke em LM sure can do a lot of other things. None of it stops me from rolling unstunnables, dropping out debuffs (obviously not as well as a debuff traited LM) clearing corruptions and all the other things LM's do other then the one mez button being nerfed in the setup. I fully utilize it all. LM's in ANY setup can be an asset to ANY group. I enjoy doing it all. I have a champ, and find him an inferior survivability LM truth be told. Hunters are boring for me since basically all they do is DPS. The LM gives me the flexibility to do many things. No retraiting needed. No regearing needed. Just a played toon as is.

[Darlgon]

no one belongs in a raid -- a team activity -- if they value their individual goals over those of the team.

I find this most entertaining, as the sole reason a person will go on a raid is to get a nice shiney for themselves. Rare people will go to help out friends, to.. drum roll.. Make it easier for them to get a different shiney from a stronger boss. The rest of your post, I will let others dissect.

As the OP, just wanted to add, the raiding kin was in need of a LM one night and begging for one in the shared channel, so I sent the raid leader a tell asking if he wanted me to come. When he told me I could only come if I could guarantee I would not LD, I basically decided they must not really want a LM. (The LD issue was fixed somehow in the patch for the month of the LM a few weeks before and had not occured in weeks.) So, I happily went my way and then listened to my kinnies dying later because they had no debuffer, knowing it was that RLs fault and not mine. After all, if I lost power, lost internet or died at the keyboard, I might LD. How can you guarantee you wont LD?

[cwswim03]

I find this most entertaining, as the sole reason a person will go on a raid is to get a nice shiney for themselves. Rare people will go to help out friends, to.. drum roll.. Make it easier for them to get a different shiney from a stronger boss. The rest of your post, I will let others dissect.

As the OP, just wanted to add, the raiding kin was in need of a LM one night and begging for one in the shared channel, so I sent the raid leader a tell asking if he wanted me to come. When he told me I could only come if I could guarantee I would not LD, I basically decided they must not really want a LM. (The LD issue was fixed somehow in the patch for the month of the LM a few weeks before and had not occured in weeks.) So, I happily went my way and then listened to my kinnies dying later because they had no debuffer, knowing it was that RLs fault and not mine. After all, if I lost power, lost internet or died at the keyboard, I might LD. How can you guarantee you wont LD?

Some people rarely LD. If you had a history of LDing frequently, I probably wouldn't take you to a raid either.

[Incanus-the-red]

So, I happily went my way and then listened to my kinnies dying later because they had no debuffer, knowing it was that RLs fault and not mine.

Stunned. I hope the officers of Paladins of Middle-earth read these forums. Guess besides there being no "I" in team, there definitely isn't a "Darlgon" in team either. I'm not sure what I thought seven pages of this thread would accomplish. It is clear the OP wasn't truly trying to see whether or not retraiting was the norm for raids; or if listening to the Raid Leader's directions about gear, traits, potions, etc was typical. Instead it was an attempt to find other sympathetic people who are either misfits in other raiding kinships or are raid-killers in the PUGs they join.

Everyone LM who has successfully raided in Middle-earth realizes: 1) you have to work as a team, 2) your raid leader's directions must be followed, and 3) you may have to retrait. This is no different than any other class. Most Burglar's don't run around with the class trait that enhances Enrage, but it definitely helps pulling in the ranged goblins in the Gauntlet. Many RKs, Healers, or Captains may be traited for DPS during the week but on raid night have to retrait so they can heal. Guardians and Wardens usually get hit up for both the cost to retrait from a DPS build to a tanking build plus high repair bills when the raid is completed. Experienced raiders know this.

[Darlgon]

Some people rarely LD. If you had a history of LDing frequently, I probably wouldn't take you to a raid either.

Dude, for a long time, I would lag out occasionally for up to two minutes, see stuff going on, with buttons pushed, fellowships chat going on, but no combat or anything. If I was fortunate, I would catch up when there was a lull or the group figured out I was LDing. Normally, I would get the Link Lost message on Teamspeak then the one for Lotro, then have to reboot my computer because I would not get connection in game. Have not had that problem since the Nov update and nothing else has changed.

Besides which, you would not want me to raid with you either, as you slam both LMs as unneeded because you can DPS thru anything and Wardens as unneeded if you kill it fast enough. You are just too LEET for me. (I HATE that expression since it shows such disdain for others.)

[Darlgon]

Stunned. I hope the officers of Paladins of Middle-earth read these forums. Guess besides there being no "I" in team, there definitely isn't a "Darlgon" in team either. I'm not sure what I thought seven pages of this thread would accomplish. It is clear the OP wasn't truly trying to see whether or not retraiting was the norm for raids; or if listening to the Raid Leader's directions about gear, traits, potions, etc was typical. Instead it was an attempt to find other sympathetic people who are either misfits in other raiding kinships or are raid-killers in the PUGs they join.

Everyone LM who has successfully raided in Middle-earth realizes: 1) you have to work as a team, 2) your raid leader's directions must be followed, and 3) you may have to retrait. This is no different than any other class. Most Burglar's don't run around with the class trait that enhances Enrage, but it definitely helps pulling in the ranged goblins in the Gauntlet. Many RKs, Healers, or Captains may be traited for DPS during the week but on raid night have to retrait so they can heal. Guardians and Wardens usually get hit up for both the cost to retrait from a DPS build to a tanking build plus high repair bills when the raid is completed. Experienced raiders know this.

As a matter of fact, I raided 6 years in old Everquest. I belong to a kin of raiders who came here hoping for more fun than worry about raiding twice a week for 6 hours at a time, as that game was dying because stuff was either solo or 24 man content. I was the person who researched raid strat for 50 plus players when we did raid. We still make up fellowships and take down supposedly raid level content with just 6 of us. Don't dare believe that I don't know how to take (or give) orders to a raid.

That said, I actually could not believe retraiting is as needed as this thread has revealed. In EQ, I was a chanter who used 7 minute charmed pets with weapons to kill/solo anything in my way. In raids, if a wipe was eminent, I could charm an add and sick it on the boss to add DPS, not just mez and debuff the mobs. People would be like, "a chanter can do that?" Retraiting was not needed, as it put you in a playstyle that cost you were not familiar and would end up wiping the entire raid. Raiding in Lotro seems to be all about doing it the way some poster on the boards says is right, not figuring out a way to overcome that favors each players playstyle. Makes you wonder how anyone was able to figure out the only one way that each tune has to be traited, with only specific classes being in the content. Was the raiding strat first posted by a dev who wanted to make sure at least someone was able to enjoy his hard work on content?

I have yet to see results/drops from raids that make my tune much better either in gear or deeds from raiding than I can get in six-man content except the stuff from Carn Dum for younger tunes. If a kin member needs a class item on an alt, we 6 man the part of the zone we need, usually in less than two hours. Helping kinnies out is one thing, helping out strangers who don't want you around is quite another.

Another thing I did learn from this thread is that I took another look at the AM line. I now am running traited AM and doing almost as good, if not better, with the Eagle as I was with KoA and Lurker.

[cwswim03]

Besides which, you would not want me to raid with you either, as you slam both LMs as unneeded because you can DPS thru anything and Wardens as unneeded if you kill it fast enough. You are just too LEET for me. (I HATE that expression since it shows such disdain for others.)

You really really miss the point of me.

A) LM power share/debuffs are invaluable in raids.
B) LMs are best suited to lock down the Loremasters in BG.
C) My comment about DPS pew pew go faster is about grinding instances for the 900th time. No one wants to take a wardens to GB if they can take champs and clear it in half the time. But yes, tanks are useless in 99.9% of content and 100% of old content, you're right.

And Yes, AM is the BG raiding Line. Any other traitset shouldn't be allowed into BG unless there is another Lm already present.

FTFY!

;p

Good to have you back chief, I missed your posts. Sig still good though.

More seriously, do you really want a laggy/linkdeader LM in the LT? I wouldn't. Just a waste of 12 people's time.

[faeother]

I have been playing since beta and refuse to re-trait for anyone or any instance with any of my characters. I am not a role player, but I do get into learning a certain way to play and that being my "style". Retraiting and having cookie cutter raids just isn't fun to me and takes away from adventure IMO.

The dorky way I like to think of it is a bunch of warriors/heroes getting together to take down a certain baddie. You meet and you learn to play with that group and adapt as needed. You would never read a fantasy novel and hear about a group not letting a warrior come because he chooses to use a 2 handed sword instead of a shield. Or leaving a wizard behind because he has trained to use fire instead of ice.

Never had demands to retrait/spec until WoW came about and everyone just wants to whip through a raid with the same classes/specs every time to just get the goodies at the end as quick as possible. I look forward to the adventure and the adapting to situations and having it be different each time I run it. I know I am not the only one, and that is why I refuse to retrait. I love my storyline and I love my characters Dorky I know, but I am the one paying and playing.

[RicardoFurriel]

I have been playing since beta and refuse to re-trait for anyone or any instance with any of my characters.

You sir win the thread. lol

[cwswim03]

I have been playing since beta and refuse to re-trait for anyone or any instance with any of my characters. I am not a role player, but I do get into learning a certain way to play and that being my "style". Retraiting and having cookie cutter raids just isn't fun to me and takes away from adventure IMO.

I'm guessing your post was satire.