Confused by new Map items

[Bryzinkta]

A long time ago, in an MMORPG far, far away, they had a thing called a Hearthstone that took you back to the Inn you had set it at.

The Cool Down on that item was 60 mins and everyone grumbled about it, so eventually they changed it to 30 mins CD in a patch. No muss, no fuss, no cost, just a simple change to every HS CD in a patch one night.

Meanwhile, here in LotRO we have the Map Home (or Milestone Skill or whatever it is now called).

This takes you to the place where you have set it and has a 60 min CD just like the other one.

Unless you pay out 495 Turbine Points per character for the new "Hurried Traveler" Store item. That is a total of 4,455 TP for a full set of toons, which equates to nine months worth of the "free" TPs that are given out to VIP members.

I am not going to argue whether the lower CD is a "need" or a "want", whether it is "necessary" or "convenience" etc.

The single point is the difference in approach between WB/T and Blizzard. This type of gouging, and there really is no other word for it, is the new face of LotRO and we'll be seeing it in more and more places.

[0rdinary0wl]

Moments like these are what I horde my free TP for. I avoid spending them on random things because I know somewhere down the road there's going to be something I would really like to have.

[ragesangel]

Ok, two things, 1: owning running a mmorpg is a buisiness, so simply they have to make money or shut it down
2: it's a buisiness and they'll empty your wallet anyway they can, that's the American dream. Feed the rich bury the poor.

Reality 101, sweet dreams

[probitas]

Ok, two things, 1: owning running a mmorpg is a buisiness, so simply they have to make money or shut it down
2: it's a buisiness and they'll empty your wallet anyway they can, that's the American dream. Feed the rich bury the poor.

Reality 101, sweet dreams

My take then, shut it down. If a reasonable profit is too much to expect, they can go take a long walk off a short pier.

[Ashamari]

Hey, you know how you can avoid getting "gouged" by things like this?

Don't buy them.

It stuns me that so many people are yammering about how brutal the LOTRO store is. You don't have to spend a dime in it, ever, period. If you choose to do so, that's your call.

There is no class vs class PvP in this game, so the argument, "It gives other people an advantage unless I buy blah blah blah" is silly. So what? Is the cooldown on a return to milestone skill that tragic? I mean, if it is, suck it up and buy the zippy one. But please don't feel you're getting bent over because the company is offering premium things....wait for it....at a premium.

What the store does, besides create nerdrage apparently, is offer players scalable choices in how they want to engage content, use perks, PL or RP, what have you. All choices that you get to make when you play. You know, those things you do after already making the choice to play at all.

I much prefer that to properties that give you zero choice at all, and cookie cutter every last aspect of the experience.

[Pfeifenkraut]

This comparison is ridiculous. The 'map' in LotRO is not a character's sole means of teleportation: there's also the 'return-to-house' teleport, the 'return-to-racial-homeland' teleport, and whatever reputation-based teleports you might earn. You can also get creative and whisper some Captain to summon you, or group with someone and have them use one of the many Mustering Horns.

Not the same.

[Chiot]

Hey, you know how you can avoid getting "gouged" by things like this?

Don't buy them.

It stuns me that so many people are yammering about how brutal the LOTRO store is. You don't have to spend a dime in it, ever, period. If you choose to do so, that's your call.

The difference is, other MMOGs make these changes and don't expect their customer base to pay for them. Every customer gets the changes, fixes, additions, etc.

LotRO is now making changes the customer base has requested and then asking them to pay for the changes. This is what is going to drive people to other MMOGs.

I'm now thinking of returning to WoW. I still like WoW quite a bit as a game (I did not leave because I thought the game sucked, I still think it is a fantastic game, and the development is stellar). I came here, for a change, something new. But even as a VIP, paying $10/month, I'm finding that the game is actually quite a bit more expensive than WoW to get the same functionality, or to just get the same type of conveniences that WoW offers for "free" (within the subscription).

I don't care if Turbine wants to gouge F2P, but they should be treating their VIPs with more respect. The VIPs should be getting most of the convenience items (extra cosmetic slots, reduced cooldown on maps, etc.) with their subscriptions.

But Turbine is treating the VIP no differently than the F2P now.

[Bryzinkta]

Thinking about returning to WoW also, for exactly the same reason. I became a Lifetime subscriber to LotRO a long time ago. Part of the reason was that I never wanted to see another monthly (or three monthly) charge on my credit card ever again.

Now I look back on that somewhat whistfully as at least it was an honest fee. There was no Pay2Win, no additional gouging for every little thing. The subscription covered everything in one go and that is now starting to look attractive again.

I will be keeping my eye on the MMORPGs that are being released this year to see if any of them take off in a big way. Been looking at the Rift forums and it seems they are having their share of issues, so not sure that is the right one. Perhaps TOR, or GW2 if it ever arrives? Will have to see...

The main thing for me is the attitude of WB/T towards the player base.

As another poster pointed out today, the cost of using Destiny Points to increase IXP, "Burst of Legendary Competence" etc., has apparently increased from around 750 DP to 2250 DP without any change in IXP rate, duration, etc. It is simply a 300% increase for no reason. Well, there is a commercial reason: Why would WB/T want a player to use "free" DP to obtain something for which they (WB/T) could charge money? WB/T would much prefer your bought an IXP increase item with your Credit Card via the Store than use the "free" DP item. It what not be unreasonable to suggest that by the end of the year DP will only be usable for PvMP items with TP being required for any PvE items.

An interesting side effect of the way WB/T has changed this game is that any game I consider moving to will be closely scrutinised to see if there are any Pay2Win "Store" inclusions. It is unlikely I would join an MMORPG that operates in the way that this one does. Prior to the changes WB/T have made, and continue to make, the existence of a Store would not have even been a blip on my radar but now it will be a key criteron in my assessment.

[Rippentuck]

If you don't want Turbine to get any more of your money, THEN DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MORE OF YOUR MONEY.


Rip

[BellusDuFenna]

If you don't want Turbine to get any more of your money, THEN DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MORE OF YOUR MONEY.

Short, to the point, and absolutely correct. Best thing is, even if you cancel your account through spite or otherwise, you can still play LOTRO. Unlike that other MMO the OP pointed out with their 30-min Hearthstone.

[Sadan01]

If you don't want Turbine to get any more of your money, THEN DON'T GIVE THEM ANY MORE OF YOUR MONEY.


Rip

Yes true but I see a slippery slope of sorts here. If Turbine's income from the store drops off, you just might start seeing content in the store that all players have to purchase in future or maybe you'll be able to buy that 1st Age LI from the store for 2,000 Turbine Points. Might be optional but that kind of item would be very tempting to buy.

I view these stores are slippery slopes and no matter how well intentioned a company may be, they will always be driven to move the bar further along to try and tempt you to spend more money. They have to.

The gap has closed between F2P players and VIP players. I suspect it will continue to close gradually over time until there is no difference with exception that you (VIPs) are paying a monthly fee that might give you 500 TPs a month but that's it. For everything else, you're using your Mastercard to spend RL money in the store, just like the F2P'ers.

I'm awaiting Turbine to vehemently deny this.

[DarkCntry]

So...because a car dealership is selling a Ford Taurus for $15,000, I should be able to, in theory, walk to a Ferrari dealership and get a nice 599 GTO for the same price, right? After-all, a car is a car and just because one is classed a luxury and the other isn't should mean a thing, right?

Yes, it's a weak analogy, but still one that fits.

The cooldown reductions are not a necessity, or even a major desire for most, and are nothing more than a nice luxury. With the fact that Turbine would like to keep their lights on and keep their developers paid, it makes sense to sell things that are luxury items in the store.

Here's the nifty thing about it...just like that Ferrari, if you feel it's too expensive, you just don't buy it.

Also, using gouging incorrectly is not a great way to start an argument. To gouge someone, in this context, would be taking something of either a necessity or semi-necessity and charging well above the market value.

[Nostro44]

Personally I have no problem with the 60 min cooldown. You can always take swift travel if you "need" to get somewhere quickly. I wouldn't want this changed - I think there's too much instant travel in the game already as I feel it detracts from the experience of being in Middle Earth. Remember this was a horse-based society and instant travel was never mentioned in the books - even the Great Wizards had to physically move from place to place.

[Texicon]

On a side note, the perm racial ports you can buy from the store no longer share a cool down...WINNING!

[Newtoo]

Sooo, basically all of you that disagree with the op that Turbine's stance of making it less desirable to pay a monthly fee think that's not a problem for the future of the game?

I keep reading on the forums how all these f2p players are "farming" the system(rerolling characters just long enough to get all the easy deeds done) to get enough TP so they don't ever pay real money, but those who have and so far are continuing to faithfully pay the monthly fee are "greedy" for wanting some of the new content without having to pay extra for it... oh wait, we already are!!

Try taking off your rose coloured glasses, even the lifetimers are finally seeing the forest.

[DarkCntry]

Sooo, basically all of you that disagree with the op that Turbine's stance of making it less desirable to pay a monthly fee think that's not a problem for the future of the game?

I keep reading on the forums how all these f2p players are "farming" the system(rerolling characters just long enough to get all the easy deeds done) to get enough TP so they don't ever pay real money, but those who have and so far are continuing to faithfully pay the monthly fee are "greedy" for wanting some of the new content without having to pay extra for it... oh wait, we already are!!

Try taking off your rose coloured glasses, even the lifetimers are finally seeing the forest.

Tell you the truth, nothing is stopping you from doing the same thing the F2Pers are and creating TP-mules. That said, if this becomes a widespread issue Turbine will more than likely curb that.

Being a lifetimer who has not actually purchased a single item from the shop, I still don't see "gouging", "bleeding me dry", "ripping me off", or "being greedy". What I see is Turbine trying to make a game as accessible as they can for free without creating a point where LOTRO is nothing more than a loss leader for the company. I don't buy anything because I don't need anything from the store, nor do I have a desire to get anything from the store.

If everyone who complains about Turbine being greedy were to actually stop paying, get together and make their own F2P MMO, without being 'greedy' of course, then you might find your Avalon. Otherwise, Turbine's system is leaps and bounds better than pretty much every other F2P MMO.

[Ulrek]

If everyone who complains about Turbine being greedy were to actually stop paying, get together and make their own F2P MMO, without being 'greedy' of course, then you might find your Avalon. Otherwise, Turbine's system is leaps and bounds better than pretty much every other F2P MMO.

Take it one step further DC...

Everyone who thinks Turbine et. al is being greedy... please stop by your boss's office and offer to work for free for a week this year....

What??? Dont want to? Why are you being so greedy?

It amazes me when people think companies are being greedy when those same people are trying to do exactly the same thing in their own personal live....

Never mind the fact that successful companies hire people... and allow those people to make money and enjoy things....

[Newtoo]

Tell you the truth, nothing is stopping you from doing the same thing the F2Pers are and creating TP-mules. That said, if this becomes a widespread issue Turbine will more than likely curb that.

Being a lifetimer who has not actually purchased a single item from the shop, I still don't see "gouging", "bleeding me dry", "ripping me off", or "being greedy". What I see is Turbine trying to make a game as accessible as they can for free without creating a point where LOTRO is nothing more than a loss leader for the company. I don't buy anything because I don't need anything from the store, nor do I have a desire to get anything from the store.

If everyone who complains about Turbine being greedy were to actually stop paying, get together and make their own F2P MMO, without being 'greedy' of course, then you might find your Avalon. Otherwise, Turbine's system is leaps and bounds better than pretty much every other F2P MMO.

Which is precisely why I had chosen to stay a VIP. I've played more than my share of games over the years starting with UO way back when and if they hadn't messed with their engine i'd prob still be playing(it's called loyalty, something i was under the impression Turbine valued, ie.lifetimers) as well as a number of f2p mmo's which have all lasted no more than a month or so.

My point is that i've always gone back to WoW and LOTRO(which i typically don't even bother cancelling during my absence) which up until now had been not only the best games on the market, but also at $10-15/mo a decent price, even given the expansion outlays. Now LOTRO is messing with that which leaves me to either put up and shut up or as everyone keeps telling me, leave and go back to the one game that's left... not a very good impression for a game that needs paying customers.

[waldorfTM]

As I see it so far, there is a very important difference in business strategy when running p2p and f2p mmos.

Ones like WOW want the experience to be as good as possible to get your $15 dollars a month. They do not deliver a good experience with the product "as is", the customer leaves and does not pay the fee. The best combat related items in the game are earned by characters in game. Only "fluff" items are sold for extra cash. They are not constantly trying to get into my wallet in game. In fact, they never once tried to sell me anything in game.

LOTRO on the other hand, seems to be going in a direction that I find rather repulsive. There is a very real incentive for them to make a good game, but to also ensure that there are annoyances in there that will only be removed when handing over cash. Even if you are a subscriber to LOTRO, there are annoyances that will only be removed with turbine points. Also, you can not earn all the best stuff in game with your characters.

Playing a game where I know full well that they are deliberately adding, or leaving in, annoyances to get my money leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth. Add to that the fact that the best combat related items are starting to appear ONLY in the store is repulsive. Why level Scholar if I can not make the best potions?

It is very clear, the focus of this game is the store. I am very well aware of the fact that Turbine is trying to get into my wallet constantly in this game. The store is everywhere that they can offer a "convenience", ripping me out of immersion and soiling my in game experience.

All this hand waving of "you do not have to buy the conveniences" is merely a smoke screen. Turbine does not need to leave the annoyances in and charge extra to remove them either. They also do not need to have the best combat related items appear only in store only, but they do...

[chuimon]

...If Turbine's income from the store drops off, you just might start seeing content in the store that all players have to purchase in future ...

Of course you will, just like everyone including VIPs had to buy Moria to see that content. I fully expect to see content in the store about once a year that can be obtained no other way.

[Newtoo]

Take it one step further DC...

Everyone who thinks Turbine et. al is being greedy... please stop by your boss's office and offer to work for free for a week this year....

What??? Dont want to? Why are you being so greedy?

It amazes me when people think companies are being greedy when those same people are trying to do exactly the same thing in their own personal live....

Never mind the fact that successful companies hire people... and allow those people to make money and enjoy things....

Once again, another poster who is missing the point.... those of us who are complaining are already paying them, you think they work for free?? roflmao... i suppose you think WoW developers work for free too... they seem to manage just fine with nothing but sub fees....

[CloacaMaxima]

Gouging would be changing things to make VIPs pay TPs for something they already had, such as Fast Travel, Bags, or such. You want the luxury of having Map every 30 minutes instead of 60? You have the option, now.

I am a subscriber now. I have access to everything I need to play the game adequately as I did back at P2P. On the plus side, I can now accrue my TPs to purchase things that I like. Is anyone here complaining about Shared Storage, for instance? I am not. It was a welcome addition, and worth the TPs i had in my wallet.

Besides, my characters have a wealth of Teleports, already, and rare it is the day I think "Hm, I would like my Map up now". And I didn't buy a single Teleport from the Store. Between Map, House, Kinship, Racial and Rep ports, I have all my bases covered up.

Turbine cannot hypnotize me into spending money, unless I want to do so. And, in this case, I cannot complain about it.

[ANewMachine]

It's "gouging" for them to release something for a small amount of money that gives you a bit of convenience that you've done without for several years? Something that's largely unnecessary because you can earn pretty good warping ability via rep grinds without spending a penny, and they've just un-linked all those cooldowns?

This is easily the most ridiculous store-related complaint I've yet seen on the forums.

[Sadan01]

Of course you will, just like everyone including VIPs had to buy Moria to see that content. I fully expect to see content in the store about once a year that can be obtained no other way.

Buying Moria .. That was an expansion. Under a different model - P2P, not F2P. Expansions are fine in my book as they're usually huge, with exception of Mirkwood but was cheaper, to compensate. But I just want to point out that I suspect this "content" that might feature on the store will be in addition to any "dedicated" expansion that Turbine might wish to put on the table and that all players would be expected to shell out TPs - so no more freebies to VIPs. I truly believe Turbine would consider this if things suddenly dropped off in the store.

If things get tight for Turbine, we should expect more "free" things for VIPs to cost TPs. We should also expect that Turbine might start also going back on "promises" made back when F2P went live. It really all depends on how high Turbine want to raise the "We're a Douchebag Company" meter. SOE are the masters. I just hope this isn't the beginning of that downward, slippery slope for LOTRO.

As I wrote elsewhere, I'm a lifer so I'm not paying Turbine a cent (now). They obviously do want me to spend money in the store but they're not going to get it unless it is something I cannot do without. With them changing the subscription model, they fully expected the bulk of the money would come from two categories - F2P players and the store (by mainly F2P players). Changing the "rules" slowly to make VIPs spend more money in the store by not giving them a choice is what will lose subscriptions. I just hope Turbine do not venture down this path. The signs are there that they just might.

[cipher_nemo]

EDIT: Turbine mods merged threads incorrectly and left us with this train-wreck. Thanks mods. Boo!

I'm removing what I said since it no longer applies to the original OP I was responding to.