Feedback: Producer's Letter March – 2011

[UndeadKing]

How about the lack of dev interaction on some of the more unpopular changes that were pushed through with Update2? The changing of the relic system, the changes to the character panel

The relic system was unpopular? I know people were upset with the fact that we can't get many of the old relics (I for one would like some of the old T6 runes with melee defense, morale and -2.5% attack duration), but from everything I've seen in game and everyone I've talked to the new relic system is actually very popular.

The character panel is a mixed bag, some things like armor aren't placed as intuitively as they used to be. Armor used to be above mitigations so you could easily track the changes when you increased your armor. Also the vertical lay out is a little harder to follow than the old compact horizontal lay out.

Other than those two things most people seem to like the rest of the changes to the character panel.

[RicardoFurriel]

There may have been posts like that, but they're untrue. You can complete the instances without the potions.

Is your opinion based on self-experience or on what Sapience said?

[Lomeloth]

I think you're crossing into a lot of different territory here, and most of it I did address in the interview I mentioned. But I'll try to give a cliff's notes version.

First, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to respond, and in such detail. It is very much something I appreciate.

I listened to the podcast last night. Thank you for the link - I don't normally listen to podcasts, but it was worth it. Gotta agree with Delaney that transcripts would be awesome - I can't really listen to anything at work, but I can read. Delaney also hit some of my impressions of it on the head - you talk a good game, but what I see in the forums doesn't always match up.

We'll start with the Community Guidelines. Everything starts there and everything in terms of posts is weighed against them. But to put it simply it's never about what you say, it's always about how you say it. So if you have something you want to share and choose to do it in a tirade or expletive laced rant, you're going to have your posts either edited or removed. Not because you disagreed or said something counter to the 'company line', but because you violated the community guidelines. Again, it's not what you say, it's how. There are a number of posts in this very thread that clearly disagree with our decisions, and they're still here. There are some that are not. Now you know why. This applies to thread titles as well.

Rather than go back through my whole bit about perception and realities in any community, I'd recommend just listening the the interview I linked above.

Perception of reality is every bit as important as 'objective' reality (if such a thing is even possible). The reality is that at least one unfavourable feedback thread was deleted outright (I know, because it happened between the first and second page as I was reading it), and three others had their titles changed - none of those three titles were in violation of the Guidelines. That reality fuels my perception that unfavourable feedback is being swept under rugs or out the door. It's a rather simple and direct correlation.

(I'd list the threads and their original titles, but I'm not willing to risk that, since it could be a violation of the Guidelines - feel free to PM me if you want them)

My money brush off was more me trying to be politically correct than get preachy over people's personal finances and spending decisions. None of which is any of my business.

Judgment was neither asked for nor called for in that regard. So I will just ask you point blank: Would you spend TP on those items at the rate you do now, if you had no allowance of points in addition to those you would have to buy/earn?

I'll admit that I had to go look this up because I couldn't find the link (I lose track of everything else, why not my own posts?). But this article may answer your question to some degree.

That is a nice list. But it's almost a year old now, and predates the F2P conversion. My perceptions are all based on more recent threads, such as the ones regarding the value of a VIP subscription, the Official Feedback thread on Legendary Items, the Official Feedback thread on Store Items for this update, etc. Delaney spoke fairly well for me - I don't question that player ideas have been implemented. I question why certain topics go without acknowledgment, and some unfavourable ones get worse treatment than simple silence.

As a bonus regarding your list of May, 2010: It's an interesting exercise to guess which would have been provided in the game, and which would now be Store items, were they to be implemented now...

[Sapience]

So I will just ask you point blank: Would you spend TP on those items at the rate you do now, if you had no allowance of points in addition to those you would have to buy/earn?

Happy to answer. Yes. I play other F2P games and have no problem spending in their shops, and I play games where I purchase a fair amount of DLC on a regular basis as well.

[Lomeloth]

Happy to answer. Yes. I play other F2P games and have no problem spending in their shops, and I play games where I purchase a fair amount of DLC on a regular basis as well.

Thanks! Again, I really appreciate your direct response, especially when you were not obligated to make one at all.

I think some of the reactions I personally have to the blatant plugs for Store items in the Producer's letter are directly related to my feeling about purchasing something outside the game for in-game performance - I simply don't do it, as a matter of course. You do, so you (and others like you) don't see the hang-up. Again, it's a matter of perception and opinion - no one is 'right' or 'wrong' but each of us should try to see that the other point of view is valid.

I understand your playstyle better now, and how it informs your responses. Mine was formed after years of subscription-based gaming, where buying something outside the game was not only frowned on but against the EULA. So my style just doesn't encompass using outside items for in-game advancement. Would it make things easier? Sure. But I worry, probably more than someone with a playstyle similar to yours, that 'easier' may turn to 'possible' in the future. That fear gets some none-to-subtle (and no doubt unintentional) reinforcement when a Producer's letter hammers home the Store items that affect in-game achievement.

Just to be clear: I don't think the Store is evil incarnate, or that tonnes of the items available there shouldn't be for sale. I am also aware that all current content can be beaten without the uberppotions. But the plugs, in combination with the mod actions mentioned earlier with regard to less favourable feedback and the replacement of in-game functionality with Store-exclusive items, don't make me feel confident that it will stay that way in the future.

[Sapience]

Thanks! Again, I really appreciate your direct response, especially when you were not obligated to make one at all.

I think some of the reactions I personally have to the blatant plugs for Store items in the Producer's letter are directly related to my feeling about purchasing something outside the game for in-game performance - I simply don't do it, as a matter of course. You do, so you (and others like you) don't see the hang-up. Again, it's a matter of perception and opinion - no one is 'right' or 'wrong' but each of us should try to see that the other point of view is valid.

I understand your playstyle better now, and how it informs your responses. Mine was formed after years of subscription-based gaming, where buying something outside the game was not only frowned on but against the EULA. So my style just doesn't encompass using outside items for in-game advancement. Would it make things easier? Sure. But I worry, probably more than someone with a playstyle similar to yours, that 'easier' may turn to 'possible' in the future. That fear gets some none-to-subtle (and no doubt unintentional) reinforcement when a Producer's letter hammers home the Store items that affect in-game achievement.

I would wager heavily you don't know my play style. I've played MMOs for over a decade (muds before that) and there are many 12-16 hour days and 60+ hour weeks of gaming in my history. I've been a video game junkie since I was 12. So that's 30+ years of gaming now (yes, I are old).

I would never argue a persons opinion as being right or wrong, but the word misconception exists for a reason. And there are many perceptions born of a mistaken understanding or inaccurate assumption.

[Overtone]

All the hating done here regarding the store is getting tired.

It's the one thing that has solidified the future of my favorite game.

True that. +Rep

Another Community Feedback Thread, and more broke peeps complaining about the Store.

As many of you have doubtless noticed we have seen posts from testers on the Hard Mode roads commenting on the requirement to use Store potions in order to successfully complete the instances

Well, my RK has finished a lot of the TII stuff. While it's true he hasn't conquered every wing in OD yet, it's just a matter of time. And he's managed to do it all without one store bought item. In fact, I haven't made a store purchase since the new update. So I call BS on the store pot requirement bit.


In regard to Kate's Letter:

I'm really enjoying the new content that we have. I suspect it's going to keep me very busy for a long time. Will be happy to play two new instances and two new Skirms in May. Especially, the two new Skirms! lol Since I have been SoE grinding anew with Update 2, it will be refreshing to have some different Skirms to blow out.

A bit bummed the extra raid got pushed back. Personally, I thought it was more than needed anyway. The recent OD Cluster is plenty. Customer service recommendation for the future: it's better to keep expectations low and over-deliver than it is to raise expectations to a high level and under-deliver.

RoI looks to be amazing, especially in regard to PvMP. Happy camper here atm patiently waiting for a big pay-off come Fall.

[Lomeloth]

I would wager heavily you don't know my play style. I've played MMOs for over a decade (muds before that) and there are many 12-16 hour days and 60+ hour weeks of gaming in my history. I've been a video game junkie since I was 12. So that's 30+ years of gaming now (yes, I are old).

I would never argue a persons opinion as being right or wrong, but the word misconception exists for a reason. And there are many perceptions born of a mistaken understanding or inaccurate assumption.

Ah, I seem to have done a poor job of saying what I meant. I didn't mean to imply I knew everything about your playstyle, or its history. I was just remarking on one aspect of it - that you find using the store easier as a matter of course than I do. It's not a bad thing, just a difference between our styles - if anything, it shows you're more adaptable than I am .

I happen to know I r older than u . I still sometimes game like a Luddite (i.e., pencils, dice, people in the same room, hex maps, miniatures, pizza...)

As for misconceptions on my part, those are part of why I post in these types of threads - I like them cleared up when possible. Unless and until that happens, I'll keep providing feedback based on what's available to me, which is necessarily coloured by my perceptions. Occasionally, it might clear up misconceptions somewhere else.

[Sapience]

I happen to know I r older than u . I still sometimes game like a Luddite (i.e., pencils, dice, people in the same room, hex maps, miniatures, pizza...)

There's a lot of people here that 'roll' that way, too. Conference rooms after hours are turned into table top gaming rooms. There's a little piece of Turbine company culture for ya.

Sorry this was so horribly dragged in so many directions. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. *Elevator Music*

[Khafar]

Thanks to Kate for her letter - it's nice to hear some news of things coming in just a few months, and further out than that! However, I echo other poster's annoyance at the rather obvious plug for the Store. We get plenty of that in the game via loading screens and the UI, via the Quartermaster's posts, e-mailed sales, etc. Yes, it's nice to know she plays regularly, but are those Store-bought pots really a key thing she wants to mention about her gameplay? Seems... contrived.

Looking forward to hearing some more details of what's coming in May - it's sure nice to get an update just a few months after the previous one! Here's to hoping that's a trend we'll see a lot more of in the coming year.

Khafar

[Crell_1]

There's a lot of people here that 'roll' that way, too. Conference rooms after hours are turned into table top gaming rooms. There's a little piece of Turbine company culture for ya.

Sorry this was so horribly dragged in so many directions. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. *Elevator Music*

Now that brings me to an interesting question. I wonder what the elevator music is at Turbine HQ?.. I almost have half a mind to call up and check out the hold-music if any!

[Dankanthegood]

Nope. As Kate said, they're new. Not conversions.

Thanks, i dont like skirmishes so thats nice



And about the letter, the best part is this
''it’s going to be an amazing experience, as it has a monstrous dragon boss with custom voice-over and lip-syncing animation, but it’s also been challenging to get all those pieces intertwined so we’re going to keep working on it and it will now be a part of the Isengard release this fall.''
All the other are.. well, worthless i guess

[FoxFire]

You can complete the instances without the potions. Obviously they'll make things easier but are in no way required.

'Obviously they'll make things easier' and that obviously makes them clearly an 'Advantage' item.

+Stat Tomes, Deed Accelerators, and similar items allow you to accomplish some things quicker. They take away some of the grinding.

Special pots for use in battle that can turn an encounter from a beat-your-head-against-a-wall-till-you-get-lucky experience, to a casual walk in the park, are not a Convenience item.

Yeah I'm exaggerating a bit there for effect, but to a degree that's essentially what these pots do. And it's wrong.

True that. +Rep

Another Community Feedback Thread, and more broke peeps complaining about the Store.

Well... I'm not broke AND I'm a lifetime founder, however I not only refuse to use these pots, I think they either shouldn't be sold in the Store at all or at least should be obtainable in game.

I, as well as MANY others, are ideologically opposed to such game-play Advantage items being sold in the Store. Particularly as they can easily be seen, rightfully or not, as necessary.

Now that brings me to an interesting question. I wonder what the elevator music is at Turbine HQ?.. I almost have half a mind to call up and check out the hold-music if any!

Now see what can of worms you've opened Sapience. You just can't win.

[Crell_1]

Now see what can of worms you've opened Sapience. You just can't win.

At least certainly not by paying.

[ThomasFlora]

interesting:

After that, we’ll be introducing a new festival-like event where players will get a chance to spend a few days frantically searching for buried treasure. It’ll have some cool in-game rewards, and will likely be open for play periodically over the year.

we’ll be introducing a new Anniversary Festival, for players to enjoy as we celebrate our 4th birthday in April!

Sad to hear about the delay:

To answer one question about Isengard: some of you have been asking about the other raid we have in development – it’s going to be an amazing experience, as it has a monstrous dragon boss with custom voice-over and lip-syncing animation, but it’s also been challenging to get all those pieces intertwined so we’re going to keep working on it and it will now be a part of the Isengard release this fall.


Good to hear info on update 3 and a date:

We’re also working on Update 3, currently scheduled for late May, with 2 new mid-level instances and 2 new Skirmishes, all of which support scaling to level 65.

Interesting.....even hinting at a third release of content in May 2012....you're still indicating that the level cap at 65 isn't going to be increased....I think peeps want the level, stat, and virtue caps increased....some new class skills...I know I do.

[Macfeast]

Interesting.....even hinting at a third release of content in May 2012....you're still indicating that the level cap at 65 isn't going to be increased....I think peeps want the level, stat, and virtue caps increased....some new class skills...I know I do.

They have already confirmed that the level cap will go up come Isengard.

[Pudi]

First time speaker here; I'm going to beg for something I'm sure others have done so in the past.....PLEASE work on housing improvements in future updates; the potential for enriching gameplay experience by creating ACTIVE neighborhoods, complete with reasons to stay there, e.g. activities similar to the season festivals for neighbors to enjoy playing with each other, as opposed to just slaying together; I believe LOTRO is one improvement from being spectacular, and that is the housing world, which could elevate this game to unprecedented heights and user satisfaction

[MithrielWielder]

Sad to read these posts from all these seemingly hyperactive people, and sadder still that Turbine seems to accept that this is representative of what people want.

We do not need new content. There is already far more content than can be mastered. This is why there are so many instances (16th Hall, Hall of Mirrors, etc.) that few people have heard of let alone attempted or mastered. This content has become inaccessable because the proliferation of new instances has divided player's attention so many ways that it is impossible to find people to do certain things. Is the new content better than what has been lost? Not really. All these new players are being dropped into these new instances woefully undergeared, because they are skipping the earlier content. E.g. there is no interest in getting the 3 piece shadow resistance armor set from the Loth instances even though shadow resistance is needed in much of the new content. And do we really need to have five times more quests than necessary to reach the level cap? The new farming quests in Oatbarton are boring, unnecessary, and will necessarily have the effect of causing people to skip more important content. Doing grey quests is boring, and yet this is what we are forced to do if we do not want to skip content.

Stop wasting our time by having us learn instances, and then effectively removing those instances from the game (again, 16th Hall). Even more important, stop changing the instances. If I did ever manage to get a group together to do, say, the Forges, I'd have to try to remember which of the five versions of the Forges is currently active, or the ten different versions of GS. Is there really any overriding purpose in permanently destroying content that people enjoy doing? At least if I buy a computer game I know I can play the content as long as I want to without the software developer arbitrarily changing it constantly.

You want to put out "new" content ? Concentrate on the epic books, adding new land areas (Thrainduil's Palace, etc.), and making more instances scalable, especially downward (love the new Annuminas scaling). At this rate there will be hundreds of instances before we get to Mordor, and that's simply impractical.

[FoxFire]

You want to put out "new" content ? Concentrate on the epic books, adding new land areas (Thrainduil's Palace, etc.), and making more instances scalable, especially downward (love the new Annuminas scaling). At this rate there will be hundreds of instances before we get to Mordor, and that's simply impractical.

I suspect there will come a time when the content vs. population per server is stretched so thin that Turbine may need to consider putting in the cross-server instance mechanic (similar to what I understand some other MMOs have).

The way that works is players from different servers can join up to run instanced dungeons together. Some players do have objections to that mechanic, but it does have its merits (such as being able to much more easily find a group of people to run specific content your interested in.)

I love group content, but I'm also perfectly happy to have more landscape exploration and story, solo content.

[Beldacar]

True that. +Rep

Another Community Feedback Thread, and more broke peeps complaining about the Store.

SNIP

Assume whatever you like about other people's motivations; you'll be wrong an awful lot of the time, though.

As I've stated elsewhere, I would happily give Turbine hundreds of dollars to purchase Turbine Points to purchase cosmetics, vault upgrades on my 24 characters, shared storage upgrades on my two accounts, and convenience items like extra travel skills.

I won't give Turbine a dime for things that give an in-game advantage.

Furthermore, when Turbine crossed the line from adding new things that gave in-game advantages and entered the territory of removing existing functionality from the game, only to repackage it as a new store-exclusive item (scrolls of relic removal), they utterly lost my trust. So now they won't get $60 from me every three months (for my two subscriptions), nor will they get the hundreds of dollars I would have spent over the next couple of years slowly upgrading all my vaults and shared storage.

As for the immediate topic at hand, I've already stated that I thought Ms. Paiz's blatant store plugs were tacky. I will elaborate and say that they indicate that Turbine management is almost completely oblivious to my point of view, because not only was she plugging items that are clearly "convenience" (the extra Map Home skills), but also items that are clearly "advantage" (the super potions). This is directly flaunting Turbine's new flawed interpretation of "convenience." And it frankly annoys me.

If enough subscribers feel the way I do, perhaps Turbine will get the message when we vote with our wallets. And if not, then I suspect that this will rapidly turn into a game I wouldn't want to play anyway.

[myfreezr2]

Sapience, would you be kind enough to explain why the store-bought pots are so much better than the pots which are crafted or traded for in-game currency? And how they are convenience, not advantage?

[UndeadKing]

If they're the pots I think they are then they have two kinds one that does a small heal over time and the other is just like regular pots, except that none of these pots(regular, HoT and store regular) are on the same timer so you can pop all three back to back instead of waiting 2min or whatever the current cool down on pots is.

[myfreezr2]

If they're the pots I think they are then they have two kinds one that does a small heal over time and the other is just like regular pots, except that none of these pots(regular, HoT and store regular) are on the same timer so you can pop all three back to back instead of waiting 2min or whatever the current cool down on pots is.

The "store regular" also have a new kind that has an up-front heal and then a HoT that follows, and, iirc, are on a 20-second cooldown. Add in that all three kinds of pots stack, and they are no longer convenience -- they are advantage. We were promised that the store would sell convenience, not advantage.

[UndeadKing]

An advantage yes, but only a minor one and one that is more convenient than anything. Long have I survived without pots, until they became available via barter items and I have yet to even bother with the store ones. The store ones are by no means necessary to play the game and so I think still fall more under convenience than they do advantage. Though I agree they start to blur the lines a little.

[bigsix66]

An advantage yes, but only a minor one and one that is more convenient than anything. Long have I survived without pots, until they became available via barter items and I have yet to even bother with the store ones. The store ones are by no means necessary to play the game and so I think still fall more under convenience than they do advantage. Though I agree they start to blur the lines a little.

A minor advantage that is convenient? I think you may have just created the Store's new advertising slogan.