Is using Overpower a necessary evil?

[Ackno]

So, I'm one of those noob Guards that really doesn't have a clue what he's doing, hence the question. 99% of the time I am playing with my wife (a hunter) as well as a few other friends so I have totally ignored weapons or skills related to running in OP. Is there any real point in me having a two hander set aside for those very infrequent times that I have to solo or is it more important that I concentrate on honing my sword and board tanking skill? I'm finally starting to feel like I'm getting the hang of it, even though I still do lose aggro on occasion. At this point, I'd hate to think that I have to learn a whole other aspect of being a Guard this far into the game.

The more opinions the better.

[Alexmook]

Is it good to have the deeds done and all the OP skills? Yes.

Is it an interesting change from S&B? Yes.

There are a few end game fights (Fire Twin in BG and she Twin in Lost Temple) that running in OP is the way to go since you will not get any blocks. I am sure many of the OP experts will weigh in here shortly and give you 100 other reasons to run OP all of the time, but it isnt anywhere near my favorite.

[Galiden]

I didn't really mess around with OP until some time in the 60s. Is it necessary? Not really, however I did it to complete the deeds. In doing so, I found that it was a very effective way of soloing for dailies, general questing, and solo skirmishing. Kills are much faster, but you take more damage so if you are battling tougher things and have no healer, then it is not a great way to go. I would swap to sword and board to kill the named guys in skirmishes, rare elites, etc. Just keep one of those 2H legendaries and level it up, then use it when the situation allows for it. That will at least get you familiar with it and get some of the class deeds out of the way. Doing it that way, you will get familiar enough with it that it won't seem so bad swapping between the two if you ever care to do so.

[JeanCarlo]

Not really, however I did it to complete the deeds. In doing so, I found that it was a very effective way of soloing for dailies, general questing, and solo skirmishing.

About the same; personally, if I'm being honest with myself, the biggest reason I don't run around in OP is because if I wanted a Dwarf running around with 2Hs, I'd go on my champ and switch him to 2H - tho he usually runs on DW.

[Eliel]

OP makes soloing faster. If you don't have a problem with your soloing speed, you don't need it when soloing.

OP is also good if you get into a group with another Guard. 2 Guards fighting for aggro helps no one, so it's good to be able to volunteer to go into OP and dish out some DPS instead.

There are also a handful of mobs out there that turn into a DPS race, like the Taskmistresses in the Moria Hall of Mirrors instance. They need to be killed within a certain amount of time or else they go nuclear. So everybody needs to get into their DPS stance and burn them down fast. I suppose you don't *need* to if your other fellow members are powerful enough, but this leads to my next point...

OP is a good tool to have and be able to use when your group needs it. You don't have to trait for it to still get some benefit from the stance (and 2h weapon). So be sure to at least have a 2h weapon and some familiarity with using OP if you want to get the most out of your Guardian.

I say all this as a Guard who prefers Sword-and-Board whenever possible. I use Sword-and-Board for solo skirmishes, and rely on a Sage to provide DPS. I even go to Sword-and-Board when solo if I'm taking on more than 3 on-level mobs. But even I find a use for OP every once in a while.

[karnage320]

It all really comes down to whatever you have the most fun doing. Getting a 2h and messing around with OP skills may feel awkward at first, but you may actually come to like it once you get the hang of it. You can actually tank better than you think in OP but it's truly a matter of personal preference.

By default, my guard is traited for OP and runs around with a 2h equipped. I'll tank 3/6-man instances in OP at times, and other times I feel like going S/B. They are 2 completely different play styles and it helps to keep things fresh and interesting. Overpower is part of your class, so you should at least look into it. If you don't like it, that's fine -- there are plenty of S/B Guards out there -- but at least you can say you tried.

[MithrilSoul]

I would think that any player, of any class, would...at a minimum...have played with all their various stances/etc. enough so that they had a pretty good feel for what they did, their strengths & weaknesses, etc. Every class in this game has a certain degree of flexibility built into it, and being the best player you can be requires a certain knowledge of all of the tools in your arsenal. As a guardian, the OP stance and its related skills are part of that arsenal we have at our fingertips.

Is it "needed"? Very rarely. But at times the stance can be very helpful. It would be wise to play around with it enough that you get a decent feel for it. Beyond that, if you find you don't like it...fine. Don't use it. But at least you'll have know what it can do, for those (very rare) situations where the good of a group basically demands you to be in OP.

[FormulaTroll]

It's not necessary, but it's not evil either.

It's been months since I've held a shield. Soloing is so much faster in OP. I'm in no way opposed to retraiting for a shield if it's necessary, I simply haven't needed to in a long time.

[Boffadoc]

I "grew up" playing a mini, who aren't the best solo class... but I learned to quest pretty conservatively, which means I'm often doing quests that are below level. OP is the way to go in my situation; because I'm fighting lower level mobs, I don't need the extra protection from a shield, and I am traited for OP damage, so I can cut through mobs and quest faster.

I keep a sword&shield on my hotbar, and would always sword&board for instances that I'm maintanking. If I'm DPS, I use OP.

[Zaestro]

It's not necessary, but it's not evil either.

When I saw the thread title, this was the exact and exclusive response I had in my head to post.

[nelar]

The idea that you take less damage with a shield is rather misleading. Yes, each individual hit from the mob does less damage using a shield, but by taking significantly longer to kill the mob you give the mob a much longer opportunity to hurt you. If I kill a mob in half the time using OP then I also reduce the time it can hurt me by half as well. In terms of damage taken, I find it pretty much a wash between OP and using a shield. The main advantage of the shield is to give you additional threat generating capabilities in case your higher damage from OP isn't sufficient to hold threat. The price for that extra threat is taking longer to kill the mob -- and that will be true in a duo as well as solo.

[PhiltheBold]

OP really isn't necessary at all. It really comes down to preference. After OP was changed so you couldn't use a shield I didn't toggle it again till i hit 65 and then got bored and I found a 2h that I liked and headed out to the moors.
I grew to love OP and learned when it was viable and when it isn't. If I'm not in a 6 man or 12 man im usually in OP. It just makes things so much faster and is a relief from the S&B approach. Don't get me wrong I love my shield and my 9k morale pool but it just takes so long to do anything without good DPS behind you. And even when you do it just makes things that much faster.
In the end there is no point where OP is strictly 'Necessary'. Although it makes some fights that much easier. Especially time sensitive ones as someone mentioned above. I know most groups are going to ask guards to go OP for the mammoth race in OD but other than that I've never been told to trait it.

[Aztec_Soul]

as a solo guard at level 30, I find OP as an effective playstyle to use... sure, I'd retrait as an axe+shield tank when I eventually group...

but there's just something RIGHT about a dwarf with a big 2H axe and a heavy crossbow... and that cool forced opening skill sound effect when I lay down some hurt on anything...

it can come down to preference, as others have suggested... I think it's a nice touch to have that option open for a guardian... leaves room to really play around with the class...

[Evendale]

Honestly, OP may not be necessary but it actually makes 90% of content easier, from solo to three mans, to six mans, and even a lot of the time in raids...

Eg:

For the new content, you are better off using OP for all of the following:
Instances:

• All 3 mans. OP isn't necessary really, but its soo slow if you don't trait for it.
• Lost Temple: OP is really better for most of the adds, as you will die if you pull all the aggro and don't kite/pledge/kill stuff fast anyway regardless of whether or not you have a shield out. Also, if you're not tanking the boss (and its much much better if you let a capt kite for the boss fight), then OP is extremely useful in the boss fight.
• SS: OP is better for most of the Coldbear fight (he has a no b/p/e debuff up most of the time, and you can even use wights for super crazy dps).

Raid (5/6 fights involve some kind of dps race):

• Wound boss the whole time (unless you're kiting mammoths).
• Disease boss for all the time while on the tree.
• Poison boss while not tanking (if you're aggro swapping).
• Fear boss while not tanking (you will definitely be aggro swapping).
• Ivar if you're not the main tank (yes, we did Ivar with 2 guards even though its not optimal). In fact Ivar is a big dps race where the whole raid takes a tonne of dmg, so you definitely want to tank at the end in OP + double pledge.
• Gorthoron if you're not the main tank (a good OP blender machine does help quite a lot, even over an extra champ).

Also:

• And of course EVERY SINGLE TIME PLEDGE IS UP (why would you be in block for when you're invincible vs melee attacks in OP anyway)!

Additionally, you gain a lot of dps from red traits, and gain comparatively very minimal survivability from yellow traits. When you're better off using a shield, aggro is rarely (if ever) an issue, so blue line is usually wasted.

==> Trait 5 Reds + Harasser always, except for raiding when you are main tanking.

The idea that you take less damage with a shield is rather misleading. Yes, each individual hit from the mob does less damage using a shield, but by taking significantly longer to kill the mob you give the mob a much longer opportunity to hurt you. If I kill a mob in half the time using OP then I also reduce the time it can hurt me by half as well. In terms of damage taken, I find it pretty much a wash between OP and using a shield. The main advantage of the shield is to give you additional threat generating capabilities in case your higher damage from OP isn't sufficient to hold threat. The price for that extra threat is taking longer to kill the mob -- and that will be true in a duo as well as solo.

Point 1) Yup, you don't take all that much damage in OP because:
a) You put the Stagger debuff on mobs a large proportion of the time (even from in front just due to crits)
b) You use TTK frequently which stun locks most bosses for a non trivial amount of time
c) A lot of mobs put out b/p/e debuffs, etc.
d) Pledge makes you near invincible regardless of stance.
e) You kill things MUCH faster

Point 2) No, you actually generate a tonne more threat in OP (especially AoE threat, but also single target). Going Litany Master + Threat Stance is the only way to compete with the threat gen of OP.





@tldr;

Necessary: No.
Evil: No.
Useful: Extremely.
Fun: Extremely.

[Ackno]

You've all convinced me to start leveling a 2 hander and to adjust my thinking that OP is evil. My bias is a throwback to the last MMO I played (no, not THAT one). On top of everything else, the responses have made me realize how little I really do know about the nuances of playing a guard. I obviously still have a lot to learn before I consider attempting any end-game content.

Thanks everyone for your invaluable input. Now I just have to figure out what all these new buttons do.......

[Toranoga]

If OP makes soloing easier because you kill things faster, it will also make killing mobs faster and easier in small groups.

Why not go OP and then switch to S&B when you come across things you know you will need to keep off others?

Also, the increase in damage you do at the start will help counter some of the agro a hunter will create.

[Dyfrin]

When you get TTK legendary, it will do wonders to your duo.
When in just parry mode sword/shield I don't crit tttk because I have morale/etc on relics.
When you get a 2her set for dps, you will have the crit relics.. and will crit TTK so often..

In a 3 man.. gyb or such will heal 400+ a tick (500+ to me with inc heal) 5 times iirc so thats 2k heal right there.. cab healing 400 seems so small.

[Crissaegrim]

...[*]Ivar if you're not the main tank (yes, we did Ivar with 2 guards even though its not optimal). In fact Ivar is a big dps race where the whole raid takes a tonne of dmg, so you definitely want to tank at the end in OP + double pledge.
...[*] And of course EVERY SINGLE TIME PLEDGE IS UP (why would you be in block for when you're invincible vs melee attacks in OP anyway)!
...

Eldar's Grace, too. Just sayin'.

<.<

>.>

(shoulda roll'd an Elf!)

*runs away*

[BeerOps]

Well I have just returned to the game after a long break, and I never used OP when I played before (S&B all the way). Now I am back and my kin is gone, I am soloing through moria, I have OP on ALL the time. I think it is the bees knees for soloing. I can solo up to 4 or 5 mobs on level or 1 over. I have him traited for parry's and DPS and it works great.

For example, I just went back to clean up some epics and soloed all of Volume 1 book 14, and am on the last instance of book 15 now. If you can't recall these there are lots of 20k master elites and some 50k master elites. The new Soloable buffs they give you to do these instances alone are great for OP as it buffs your morale up MEGA and gives you great dps with a 2h.

I will go back to S&B for tanking, but I love the OP.

[ImirielOfTheNorth]

I couldn't live without it.
My 2h Axe is by far my main focus out of my LIs and I'm always looking to increase my Melee Critical and my Parry. I too didn't start using it till my 60s but now I use it all the time.
My Kin told me I should've rolled a Champion, so I did and blegh, they die too easily.

[lescastor]

I couldn't live without it.
My 2h Axe is by far my main focus out of my LIs and I'm always looking to increase my Melee Critical and my Parry. I too didn't start using it till my 60s but now I use it all the time.
My Kin told me I should've rolled a Champion, so I did and blegh, they die too easily.

other way around, champions should've rolled a guardian

I kid, but for me I prefer OP whenever I'm solo, and even then sometimes when I'm tanking. Shield-only attacks are the only real benefit to going that way since they tend to generate more threat which means less chasing things around, as well as the added benefit of survivability. I wouldn't say overpower is necessary though. If you enjoy the pace of the game with a sword and shield then more power to you. I don't go OP for the speed actually, I've just always played my "knight" characters with a 2 handed weapon. As far as soloing is concerned, they're both on par.

[macdadg]

I can't say that I've ever used OP. I don't have a problem killing things quickly. With my belt having shield damage, shield smash damage, and shield use maxed, when running in block stance, I am constantly getting block responses and usually hit for 400-500 with my shield skills, and routinely crit for 1500+.

I am rolling a dwarf guard and may use him OP with an axe to see th difference when he gets big enough.

So for me, OP is not necessary, though I can't say I've ever given it a proper chance. The couple times I've tried it out, I've noticed big power issues, but I didn't retrait, so that probably would make a difference.

[Steppy9]

At end game, the switch to Overpower-only skills on your hotbar and the swapping of traits (at around 200 sp per pop) are a pain in the butt and a lot of people won't do it. Personally, I think it is totally worth it. When the new 3-man instances launched, my normal team of Guardian, Captain, Minstrel managed to do them both but suffered a few learning failures and challenges. After hashing out what was happening, I concluded Northcotton Farms instance really should be played in OP mode and at Tier 1, with the Guard on OP, it is ridiculously easy. Once we figured out our tactics, the same thing applied to Stoneheight -- both those 3-mans just run suprisingly smoother for us switching from S&B to OP mode. The reason is that the challenge on them is balanced for all the status effects - wounds in Stoneheight and poison in Northcotton. And your shield really isn't doing much to protect you from wounds or poison - hence, significantly higher DPS is pure win.

[Boffadoc]

I think that if you took two relatively equal Guardians, and one traited and geared for OP and the other was traited for S&B, we'd see that when they fought a group of the same mobs...
The S&B guard would finish the fight with more health than the OP guard. Not sure by how much, but it would be a significant amount...
Conversely, the OP guard would finish the fight faster than the S&B guard. Again, how much faster? Not sure, but it would be statistically significant.

It's not as simple as OP kills twice as fast, so they take half as much damage... it's a much more complicated ratio, where the S&B takes less damage because of the additional block procs and armour value. The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

[Zaestro]

I think that if you took two relatively equal Guardians, and one traited and geared for OP and the other was traited for S&B, we'd see that when they fought a group of the same mobs...
The S&B guard would finish the fight with more health than the OP guard. Not sure by how much, but it would be a significant amount...
Conversely, the OP guard would finish the fight faster than the S&B guard. Again, how much faster? Not sure, but it would be statistically significant.

It's not as simple as OP kills twice as fast, so they take half as much damage... it's a much more complicated ratio, where the S&B takes less damage because of the additional block procs and armour value. The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

You are not wrong. but its even more complex than you suggest...if the OP guard has additional targets on his 2hndr, and given that a SnB's biggest attacks are single target shield strikes...the OP guard actually widens the gap in dps facing numerous mobs.

Conversely, the snb guard actually can in some circumstances become almost invulnerable if built for partial mit's and wearing heal proc gear (visit AoEworth's vidoe of the crafting instance pull). An OP guard can not even survive that...plainly and simply.

Both have their places, and please forgive me for saying: anyone who refuses to spend the time building LI's and equipment rosters to maxmize each...instead looking for a one-stop magic bullet solution...is being lazy and not living up to his or her fullest potentials.

Just do it...build both and be all that a guard can be.