Can wardens do viable dps?

[Cecth]

My primary is my guardian, my primary-alt is my warden, who I adore. I'd love to hear from some wardens that they can DPS the cauldron by themselves, because the two times I've gone with wardens into NCF they haven't been able to do it, possibly because of their build/traiting, but I'd like to hear otherwise.

I'm able...^^ its srsly not rly difficult...

[horus418]

Reason I gave the response I did was because I have no hard parses to go by, the burg I run with doesn't parse(although I guess I could try asking him) and I refuse to trust any other burg's parse b/c I've seen such a wide range of parses from burglars with some as low as 300dps(which I know I could beat on my warden) to ones above the 600 dps mark.

If I do ask him to parse, what do you think a good mob to parse would be?

Have him parse any on level boss that won't screw up his numbers at all. I'm fairly certain that after this new update burgs will in fact out dps a warden because of some of the new buffs to them. I'd like to know by how much just for sake of curiosity.

There are a few burgs out there who now say that burgs are #1 at single target DPS, and people are buying it... It is exactly this type of nonsense that we need to stay away from. It blows my mind how some people just accept junk like that without any type of proof. Hey, if I am wrong I'd be more than happy to admit it, my burg is my second favorite class, but I'm not going to parse on her because she isn't anywhere near as decked out as my warden.

In comparison, my champ isn't so bad, yet still not as decked out as my warden and I've broken 1000dps on him in groups and get numbers in the 700's consistently while solo.

I'm able...^^ its srsly not rly difficult...

What happened to your other post? The numbers you gave for your warden seemed a little low, I've parsed pass 600 solo and well over 800 in groups. It's all about the build.

[Cecth]

What happened to your other post? The numbers you gave for your warden seemed a little low, I've parsed pass 600 solo and well over 800 in groups. It's all about the build.

I deleted it...should have read the whole thread before *dideldu*

My dps-parsing was with a tanking weapon without a dmg-type on it so ofc the numbers arent that high. Have to test it for now again...

I REALLY want to see the parses with nearly 800 dps solo, and i want not just one with crit-luck...i cant imagine of a constant dps more than 650...

As for Burgs: Burg dps > Guard or Warden dps. In longer fights Warden dps > Guard dps.

I can play the 3-Man Instances complete as a DD-Tank without power-support from other classes. I played the instances with DD-Tank Guards in their dmg-stance and they are out of power after half of the fight...hmmmmmm

Wardens also have reduced powercost while dd-skilled...a huge plus imo
another fact is: A Guard's dps in tank-stance is a joke...wardens can do enough dps in every stance
(first Boss in SG 2-man with Burglar+Warden and the fire only filled half of the room)

oh, for the TO: Yes, Wardens CAN do viable dps, but in the early-mid-game you won't recognize it that much (wardens get a huge dmg-boost with lvl 60 and the use of 2in1 Gambits)

[horus418]

Read my post again, I said 800 was in groups. I never even came close to that number solo.

This is a dps thread, not a tanking thread, so if you are going to compare it has to be a guard in OP vs warden in spear. The l33t guard in my kin doesn't seem to play much anymore so I can't ask him questions, but we used to share a lot of info and he would out dps me on just about everything. The numbers he was getting were just below that of a certain l33t champ that used to parse higher than anybody else on this forum.

This is the 3rd time I'm going to mention this site... lord of the logs. Go take a look there (although there is very little guard info), see the numbers posted between burgs, champs and wardens, then get back to me. Heck, even check the gimmick all burg runs... actual number tell much more than gut feeling, I promise you.

[Cecth]

I wasnt comparing, just mentioning it for the TO

I know that you didnt reach 800 solo, but you mentioned a champ and a guard doing that. I cant even imagine a 600 dps-warden solo, can you do that again pls and send me a log?

oh please...you tested on a 10k mob? this is hilarious^^

[horus418]

I wasnt comparing, just mentioning it for the TO

I know that you didnt reach 800 solo, but you mentioned a champ and a guard doing that. I cant even imagine a 600 dps-warden solo, can you do that again pls and send me a log?

Man, did you even look at the site yet? No you didn't... http://www.lordofthelogs.com/viewlog...1-ccff847c3c1c

Champs have gotten 900+ solo...

When I tell people to look somewhere for info, I can assure you that I'm not bluffing.

[Cecth]

Man, did you even look at the site yet? No you didn't... http://www.lordofthelogs.com/viewlog...1-ccff847c3c1c

Champs have gotten 900+ solo...

When I tell people to look somewhere for info, I can assure you that I'm not bluffing.

i did...i just didnt found any reliable stats...

you tested on a 10k Mob...srsly???? You cant test your dps on a 10k Mob...its all about critluck there...watching your other tests on the same mob its all around 450...cmon man

i can also go on with a burg and kill a 10k mob in 10 seconds, wow i have 1000 dps...thats not remarkable for dps!

Oh, one of our RKs had a 15k Epic Conclusion on Morskor...wow, he has now the highest dps ever seen...but for the whole fight he did less than my burg did..

[horus418]

i did...i just didnt found any reliable stats...

you tested on a 10k Mob...srsly???? You cant test your dps on a 10k Mob...its all about critluck there...

When you test that dps out a couple hundred times and average it all out, a picture starts to form... The difficulty with testing mobs with lots of morale is that those mobs usually do lots of damage so you'll need somebody to tank for you while you dps away. This is why people parse a huge number of mobs.

The bottom line is, posting numbers never satisfies people with an agenda (or a closed mind), they try to poke holes yet logic still prevails...

If you have a better idea, lets hear it.

[horus418]

because you edited...

"i can also go on with a burg and kill a 10k mob in 10 seconds, wow i have 1000 dps...thats not remarkable for dps!"

This is exactly what I don't like... don't pull numbers out of the air! If you can get 1000dps on a marauder, show it. You can't, have a nice day.

"Oh, one of our RKs had a 15k Epic Conclusion on Morskor...wow, he has now the highest dps ever seen...but for the whole fight he did less than my burg did.."

This is exactly why I view Morskor parses as gimmicks.

[Zaestro]

Riddle me this, Batman:

Can your toon DPS the cauldron on Tier 2 in NCF? If the answer is yes, you count as DPS. If the answer is no, then you can whine all you want but you ain't DPS, brother. Thank you for playing, move along.

Someone paged me? Yes...indeed...guards can solo dps the cauldron. I did it last with a captain who was busy healing a burg who was lagging badly in the eye clouds in between struggling to do the slapping...and neither then were coming in to assist...and I finished right at the 1 minute warning. That is pretty good dps imo...used one power pot, btw.

Also as to burg v. guard parses. I do not know what burgs will parse currently, but say this: I expect that the burg parse should be done as a solo, meaning that he/she will then also have the mob facing them, just as a guard almost inexorably will. Barring that, the comparative mob must somehow be held by something that hasn't been created yet (imo) if the burg is going to get the ben efit of doing positional damage. The guard must be afforded the same positional advantage for fair comparison, since guards get positional damage on our short cd stagger attack also, inclusive of a +15% legacy specifically granted for it...plus all block and parry is then inherently surpassed and other hits will not be disadvantaged for one class and not the other.

The reason I say "held by something not yet created," is that I routinely hold the aggro whole in OP while my excellently equipped burg friends wang away at a mobs backside to their hearts content, just swinging my 2hndr with an OP belt devoid of any threat modifiers on it, and while not using vexing on a single target (an AoE attack with threat built in). Guards in OP tend to yank even from other guards in threat stance after a bit...just as champs can do, and SS hunters and some RK's.

I have heard of burgs doing so as well, and believe it is possible...know it can be done against block stance, but am a frequent GT user and have never seen it occur live, unless I was getting lazy and taking the threat bonus of the stance for granted...spamming for FM's or whatever. Guards and champs WILL pull in a max dps rotation...and an engage may become necessary, then extending the perceived threat lead once again, assuming it hits. I personally yank Tyrants from from GT users (and the rest of the raid ...champs burgs and hunters) while in the 'moors, every player in a full (up to 24 player) raid then going for max dps to kill the tyrant ever faster as the creeps start pushing up the stairs to mess with us. DPS on pain of wipe. This real example happens pretty much on a daily basis.

[geoboy]

I'm sorry, but testing on anything where you contribute less than 20k is utterly useless, really. Say your biggest hits are on a 1minute cooldown... see where I'm going with this?

So you unload all of your longest cooldown DPS skills and then wait a bit to do it again. So on my hunter, I get to use needful haste, intent concentration, burn hot, heartseeker, merciful shot, blood arrow all in one short parse.

[Cecth]

When you test that dps out a couple hundred times and average it all out, a picture starts to form... The difficulty with testing mobs with lots of morale is that those mobs usually do lots of damage so you'll need somebody to tank for you while you dps away. This is why people parse a huge number of mobs.

You said that 400-450 dps is a bit low...but overall its the average. Also you need an Elite-Master to test dps because of resistance and damage reduction.

edit: a burglar from the front isnt a burglar...you lose half of the damage because half of your dmg is positional damage, so you rly cant compare that. But i also think a burglar does more damage as a guard even standing in front of the mob

[horus418]

I'm sorry, but testing on anything where you contribute less than 20k is utterly useless, really. Say your biggest hits are on a 1minute cooldown... see where I'm going with this?

So you unload all of your longest cooldown DPS skills and then wait a bit to do it again. So on my hunter, I get to use needful haste, intent concentration, burn hot, heartseeker, merciful shot, blood arrow all in one short parse.

This is only true for certain classes though. With wardens and champs it doesn't matter, wardens don't have cool downs and champs don't have lengthy ones that affect dps in even 30 second fights. All that is needed is going non stop from mob to mob with no breaks in between. The average will be the same regardless of mob morale, 9k or 50k, no difference. As a matter of fact, marauder parsing for champs and wardens give the best picture just because of the sheer numbers of parses that can be done and averaged out.

You said that 400-450 dps is a bit low...but overall its the average. Also you need an Elite-Master to test dps because of resistance and damage reduction.

edit: a burglar from the front isnt a burglar...you lose half of the damage because half of your dmg is positional damage, so you rly cant compare that. But i also think a burglar does more damage as a guard even standing in front of the mob

You didn't mention anything about 400-450 being an average, you just said you didn't think a warden could hit 600+. For an overall average 400-450 solo isn't that bad at all for a warden pre-new relics/builds, now you can get quite a bit higher.

I'm also not asking burgs to parse solo either, it's just not fair. The point that everybody seems to be overlooking though are that even in group parses wardens were in fact out dpsing burglars before the new update. If those burgs put up parses showing damage from the front, they are discrediting the class.

Hunters and RKs owe it to their classes to get parsing because the majority of ones out there are abysmally low. People like to talk how hard they can hit but where are the numbers? I don't give a hoot about 11k heart seeker or or 11k epic conclusion either... champs can hit 11k remorseless with only a few seconds on a cool down timer. Simple math tells the entire story folks.

[Malephor]

I'm still waiting to see a warden break 500dps on a sustained, unbuffed fight. Go burn something like general timurzgrat, bring a minstrel. Or burn something like cauldron in NCF, and post the parse.

Hunters and RKs owe it to their classes to get parsing because the majority of ones out there are abysmally low. People like to talk how hard they can hit but where are the numbers? I don't give a hoot about 11k heart seeker or or 11k epic conclusion either... champs can hit 11k remorseless with only a few seconds on a cool down timer. Simple math tells the entire story folks.

But you do care about your WT and onslaught crits on your marauders?

Wardens can break 600dps while solo against small mobs. But to maintain that 600 dps just ain't going to happen while unbuffed. Stop pretending like it can.

Until you parse something bigger than a sig, all you will have proved is that you can break 600 dps on sigs, and nothing more. You have no excuse not to do otherwise, there is an abundance of higher mobs(if nothing else, gwibers in enedwaith would be better and are easily soloable).

[geoboy]

Pre-update I was parsing mid-high 400s on gwibers. By the end, my power was gone. Buildwise, I don't think there was anything I could really do to increase DPS aside from +dev magnitude items, which I don't think are very valuable for the warden class.

450 - 600 is a huge gap. I don't see how to make that up. Maybe on a 10k mob with a couple lucky crits, but on a 20k mob, I just don't see it.

[Malephor]

I haven't looked at the new relics in detail yet( I had just slotted the t9s after update, don't have any TP to get them unslotted yet), but I expect some of the new +crit and +offence ones might be able to push your dps up a bit(while sacrificing other things, but not anywhere near the sort of jump needed to hit 600.

Also, a warden claims to have hit a bit over 500 on gwibers. Still waiting on more info on that though.

[horus418]

My best parse FWIW was 570somthing on a gwibber. The point is that my averages for both gwibbers and marauders were the roughly the same over all to the point that I stopped parsing gwibbers because of how often I died from not stopping in between fights.

I'm still waiting to see a warden break 500dps on a sustained, unbuffed fight. Go burn something like general timurzgrat, bring a minstrel. Or burn something like cauldron in NCF, and post the parse.

I have... Communication is the key though. Wardens have to jump through hoops to sustain power and I guess you guys don't realize just how hard DBtB can hit... For group situations other than the hardest content, provided the group works with him/her a warden will never, ever need even a power pot. People have been harping on the power/dps thing from day 1 yet you don't want to work around it. Well, you are always going to be mediocre then. Before you guys start jumping up and down again, I'm saying that this is situational... but that situation exists in the majority of this game. Sadly, this is a case of being reliant on other people though, but if these people work with you, the warden absolutely excels.

But you do care about your WT and onslaught crits on your marauders?

Of course I care about crits, you miss my point. 9 times out of 10 when it comes to dps threads people like to bring up hunter and rk crits... i'm not comparing warden dps to those of hunters and rks, people brought champs in to the argument.

Wardens can break 600dps while solo against small mobs. But to maintain that 600 dps just ain't going to happen while unbuffed. Stop pretending like it can.

Until you parse something bigger than a sig, all you will have proved is that you can break 600 dps on sigs, and nothing more. You have no excuse not to do otherwise, there is an abundance of higher mobs(if nothing else, gwibers in enedwaith would be better and are easily soloable).

I just told you how they can, now go and try it for yourself. If somebody wants to run around with me for a couple of hours and keep me properly healed hook me up! Given that DPS is all about a game of crit dice, if I fight enough 40k mobs you'll eventually see 600+ dps... tell me I'm wrong and I'll tell you that simple arithmetic doesn't lie.

Before dudes start zeroing in on certain numbers I'll just say it flat out. IME, wardens do about 450-500 sustained, unbuffed DPS on average when the people you are running with work with you and let you do your thing. In a group with buffs the numbers go up up up, just like everybody else.

Now, are you guys going to open up your minds or do you insist on remaining stubborn?

[Antrius]

Now, are you guys going to open up your minds or do you insist on remaining stubborn?

Oh I hate these threads. As soon as the next one pops up we'll start all over again.
With that said.... Gonna go with option number two!

[zimble]

The bottom line is, posting numbers never satisfies people with an agenda (or a closed mind), they try to poke holes yet logic still prevails...

You clearly have a different definition of "logic" from the rest of the planet... I'm not sure how comparing parses from varying players of different skill levels, with different gear, in different groups of people with again varying skill levels, with different buffs / debuffs, against largely different mobs is considered logical...

Even if I was to ignore the gaping flaws in logic and scientific principle, and decided to compare them for "fun" I couldn't, because most of the classes Guards, Capts, Burgs, LMs, etc have so few parses (less than 5 in some cases) that they are on entirely different mobs.

Putting logic and all notion of sound statistical reasoning aside, whose numbers do I believe yours or the guy in the Burg thread whose figures show burgs out parse everything on those training dummies?

Now, are you guys going to open up your minds or do you insist on remaining stubborn?

Perhaps you should open up your own mind a bit and look beyond parses (especially until someone actually provides reliable figures), the question is - is a class a viable DPS class, in some cases, Burgs for instance you have to consider more than what they individually parse, you have to consider how much the groups DPS is increased by reveal weakness & counter attack.

Which is why in terms of single target DPS a burg will contribute more than any champ, RK or Hunter to a raid and is a perfectly viable as DPS in a raid or 6 man (talking single target, not AOE obviously).

[ofMiceandHobbits]

Post - Update2 DPS comparison (Sustainable 5 minute numbers in semi-buffed situations):



Champion DPS increased a small amount after this patch since Flurry was bugged to only 15% attack duration instead of 20%. However these tests were using the attack duration relics to begin with, so the difference will be on the order ~4% dps increase (125-120)/120 = 0.041. The adjusted values for the champion therefore should be (1.04) * 683 = 710 DPS in Fervor for 5 minutes. First age weapons and the improved OD offhand weapons should up this another 5% or so.

Unfortunately I was not doing a direct comparison of Wardens in this extensive testing. However, I do love my warden and I did a bunch of tests for fun (not 100% standardized like the above chart was). He was achieving 650 DPS sustained with the new relics on a debuffed mob with token, DP damage, and damage scrolls. Certainly not DPS class territory, but for sure very significant numbers.

Also a comparison of the benefits of increasing your critical rating are outlined below. The distance between the red and blue lines is how much you are diminishing. The amount of devastate critical chance you are achieving with a set rating can be estimated by the formula:

Approx Devastate Chance = [Critical Rating]*(0.000010989)



What does it all mean? Mainly that I will be having my kin warden tanks trait spear in certain boss fights in OD in order to contribute extremely significant DPS, especially once they are 15%+ critical defense with the OD set. Durin's Bane or Frothmar or Ivar with an extra 400 or so DPS from a spear Warden will be nice. Will it be as high as the burgs/champs/rk's/hunters? No. Can they tank while doing it? Most definitely.

[Malephor]

I have... Communication is the key though. Wardens have to jump through hoops to sustain power and I guess you guys don't realize just how hard DBtB can hit... For group situations other than the hardest content, provided the group works with him/her a warden will never, ever need even a power pot. People have been harping on the power/dps thing from day 1 yet you don't want to work around it. Well, you are always going to be mediocre then. Before you guys start jumping up and down again, I'm saying that this is situational... but that situation exists in the majority of this game. Sadly, this is a case of being reliant on other people though, but if these people work with you, the warden absolutely excels.

I know how hard DbtD hits, and how to maintain my power in a fight. I actually hadn't meant sustained in the power sense, but just sustained as in long enough that crits don't sway it so much.

I just told you how they can, now go and try it for yourself. If somebody wants to run around with me for a couple of hours and keep me properly healed hook me up! Given that DPS is all about a game of crit dice, if I fight enough 40k mobs you'll eventually see 600+ dps... tell me I'm wrong and I'll tell you that simple arithmetic doesn't lie.

I'd love to do so, but I don't have a healer on your server. You're right, you could break 600 dps theoretically on any mob. Would you like to the the simple arithmetic to find out the chance of that happening?

You're right, but you're practically wrong.

wardens do about 450-500 sustained, unbuffed DPS on average when the people you are running with work with you and let you do your thing.

Stop pulling out 600dps parses on 8k mobs then. I can't argue those numbers, because those are the same as mine. But (repeatedly) pulling out your 600dps parse(with 2 WT devs, and several other crits/devs) isn't at all productive.

Ontopic:Wardens can do dps, they can't outdps the real dps classes. Wardens can sustain themselves if the group (or lm/cappy/burg) works with them, but generally not as well as the real dps classes.

Edit: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...based-on-level

[Wu-Thunderkiss]

I'm also not asking burgs to parse solo either, it's just not fair. The point that everybody seems to be overlooking though are that even in group parses wardens were in fact out dpsing burglars before the new update. If those burgs put up parses showing damage from the front, they are discrediting the class.
.

Wardens out dpsing burgs? when was this? because I ripped aggro off every warden i grouped with, BAR none, at will. This is not hubris, just fact. And that's pre-patch.

Now burgs have a +8% stance and you think they MAY do more than wardens? Pah. Fact is, i don't think you know what you think you know. In fact i know you don't, because i know better.

Now if you had had a shred of humility, you'd have said "most burgs" just like posters here are always quick to reply "most wardens" when defending poor tanking. Fact is, you didn't. And yeah, there are some awful players out there of all colors. However, they are not representative of the whole, as the warden community is so quick to point out. Nor should you try to paint it as such to bolster your already weak position.

If i were so inclined i'd show you how silly you really are being, as you are on my server and all, but i really don't feel the need to "prove" anything to you or anyone else. But this staggering level of misinformation and patting ones self on the back is irritating to those that know better.

[horus418]

You clearly have a different definition of "logic" from the rest of the planet... I'm not sure how comparing parses from varying players of different skill levels, with different gear, in different groups of people with again varying skill levels, with different buffs / debuffs, against largely different mobs is considered logical...

Even if I was to ignore the gaping flaws in logic and scientific principle, and decided to compare them for "fun" I couldn't, because most of the classes Guards, Capts, Burgs, LMs, etc have so few parses (less than 5 in some cases) that they are on entirely different mobs.

Putting logic and all notion of sound statistical reasoning aside, whose numbers do I believe yours or the guy in the Burg thread whose figures show burgs out parse everything on those training dummies?

Well, that is why I'm asking for more parses so that we can really get a clearer picture. As it stands right now, the parses are the only thing we actually have to go by.

As for the dummy parse, all sorts of things just didn't add up and it wasn't just the flurry bug.

Perhaps you should open up your own mind a bit and look beyond parses (especially until someone actually provides reliable figures), the question is - is a class a viable DPS class, in some cases, Burgs for instance you have to consider more than what they individually parse, you have to consider how much the groups DPS is increased by reveal weakness & counter attack.

Which is why in terms of single target DPS a burg will contribute more than any champ, RK or Hunter to a raid and is a perfectly viable as DPS in a raid or 6 man (talking single target, not AOE obviously).

Of course the burg is a viable dps class, I never said it wasn't... BUT, you don't simply get to add the additional damage that a champ gains from RW to a burglar's overall dps... All things equal, RW + burg & champ, the champ was most certainly putting out more numbers pre-update. For the present, I'm of a wait and see frame of mind, but just adding in the new burg perks I feel that nothing has changed as far as who actually hits harder.

Now, ofMiceandHobbits, what exactly is it that you are showing us? What is the mob(s)? What other classes make up each group? Who do these damage parses belong to?

I mean no disrespect but you've been told before that your numbers looked quite off for your champ on the training dummy. The numbers look off with whoever this champ is here.

Just because I have 5 level 65 characters doesn't give me the right to represent each class equally. If this were the case I'd parse my burg vs my champion but that wouldn't be entirely fair to my burg. In order to be fair, equally decked out toons/well skilled players need to be parsed against each other, not mains vs. alts.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

As for the dummy parse, all sorts of things just didn't add up and it wasn't just the flurry bug.

Now, ofMiceandHobbits, what exactly is it that you are showing us? What is the mob(s)? What other classes make up each group? Who do these damage parses belong to?

I mean no disrespect but you've been told before that your numbers looked quite off for your champ on the training dummy. The numbers look off with whoever this champ is here.

I offer the data requested on a standardized mob. The things that 'didn't' add up' were fully addressed in the previous thread in the Burglar forums. Until someone offers a similar test, I will stand by the data presented.

[XSYS]

stuff

"My experience is different from yours, therefore you're wrong. I don't have any data, but I don't need it, because you're wrong. We're on the same server, so it would make sense to run tests together, but there's no need, because you're wrong."

The funny thing about experiences is that everyone has different ones, and all of them are skewed by subjective biases. You're welcome to yours, but without posting data to back up your claims you're no more convincing than the guy who says burglars can't DPS at all.