=Book 3: Echoes of the Dead= SPOILERS/Lore Question

[BrianDavion]

Isildur certainly did not come across as very noble in his treatment of the Oathbreakers. He comes across as very arrogant and not someone that is very admirable. The Oathbreakers seemed to not want to fight at all, and remain neutral by agreeing to whichever faction seemed the most powerful. To justify Isildur's rage and the curse, Turbine should have had the Oathbreakers fighting alongside the orcs in the destruction of the Gondorian fortress. That would have made Isildur appear justified in his reaction to the broken Oath.

However...Isildur is the guy who could have destroyed Sauron but kept the Ring. He was weak in will, compared to his descendent Aragorn who never tried to take the Ring from Frodo. The arrogance displayed in this short session play shows him as a weak character, and it fits a bit better with Isildur's future actions. If I remember right, Aragorn was greatly ashamed of his lineage because of Isildur's weakness in regards of the Ring, and feared that he would fail as well. Isildur, while awesome for taking down Sauron, was not the brightest part of that lineage.

So while at first you feel a little bit for the Oathbreakers for being unfairly punished, that goes away by the end of the instance. Their treatment of the Grey Company makes the players see just what a bunch of back-stabbing jerks those Oathbreakers are. Once Candaith is slain, I felt that Isildur was justified in cursing them (would have liked to see them backstab Isildur though). I do feel good at those cowardly Oathbreakers in Enedwaith will never be released from their curse, as Aragorn will never be around there to summon them. Those who stayed with their King in the Paths of the Dead will be redeemed, but those who ambushed the Grey Company are forever doomed to remain an Oathbreaker.

Candaith's interaction with the leader of the splinter Oathbreakers was great. You could see the frustration at first as the Oathbreaker continued to summon soldiers to try to kill Candaith. Eventually, you could see that the Oathbreaker would stop at nothing until we were dead. I realized during the 4-spawn that we would not get out of there alive. Candaith then went to the desperation play and claimed to be the heir. I dont believe that the Oathbreaker really meant that he would redeem himself when the time comes. I think the Oathbreaker only said that to get Candaith to drop his guard so he could kill him. I don't believe that the Oathbreaker really knew that Candaith was NOT the heir and that it was not the real ring of Barahir. He simply didn't care. In other words, the Oathbreaker probably thought Candaith was the heir (he is related to Aragorn and was leading a force of Rangers...the Ring of Barahir he had was supposed to look identical, and I doubt this Oathbreaker had enough time to study Isildur to immediately recognize the difference at a glance) and decided to kill him out of revenge for the curse rather than to seek redemption.

I think people who think Isuildor's curse was a bit Harsh are looking at it from a modern North American prespective, one that doesn't quite apply to middle earth.

An Oath in middle earth is a POWERFUL thing, one you should not give lightly. read the Similarian and you'll see some examples of the immense power an oath can have. to break your oath is to be accursed

[Vilnas]

The story makes sense just fine. Let me lay out some of my thinking.

1. Nar specifically states at the end that he was speaking to Saruman. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for Gandalf to pretend to Nar that he is Saruman. On the other hand, Saruman has reasons to use Nar (discussed below). I believe we can safely assume Nar's friend really is Saruman.

2. As others have pointed out, there is an ancient prophesy from Malbeth the Seer regarding the Paths of the Dead (which essentially suggests that Isildur's heir will walk the Paths and command the Oathbreakers to fulfill their oath). As one of the Wise, it is far more believable that Saruman knew of it than that he did not. Saruman would also have made a close study of every scrap of information he could glean regarding Isildur at the time of the Last Alliance, as well Gondorian legends generally. Saruman certainly would have known of Erech, the Oathbreakers and the Paths of the Dead. Furthermore, Saruman has lived in Orthanc, which is near the Paths of the Dead, for a very long time. It is entirely believable that Saruman would have made the effort to become well-acquainted with his surroundings and the local legends.

3. Saruman has a Palantir as well as many spies. It is no stretch at all to imagine that he was aware of the movement of the Grey Company out of Rivendell. In fact, we ourselves tell his servant Lotho Sackville Baggins about the trip south in 3.1. The more pressing question is whether he could have learned about the specific orders Elrond gave his sons regarding Aragorn and the Paths of the Dead. In strict lore terms that is difficult because the palantiri gave the power of sight but not sound. However, for my part I am prepared to allow Turbine a small lore break on that point if they need it. Alternatively, I can accept that somehow one of Saruman's spies managed to overhear the sons of Elrond discussing it privately with Halbarad. How about one of the crebain, which are all over the Trollshaws? If the ravens and thrushes of Erebor can understand human speech, why not the crebain?

4. Saruman knows of Malbeth's prophesy, and he knows that Elrond wants to give Aragorn the reminder that the Paths of the Dead are available if the situation is dire. Saruman is worried that this could be just the variable that tips the scales in favor of the Gondor and Rohan. Remember that Saruman is a Maia in mortal form just like Gandalf, and presumably has the instincts and limited foreknowledge that Gandalf demonstrated from time to time. Saruman needs to figure out a way to dissuade the Rangers (and ultimately Aragorn) from taking the Paths. He therefore concocts a scheme to try to scare them out of it. When the initial attempt to do so (3.2) fails, Saruman gets even more devious (3.3) and manipulates the Rangers into trying to verify that the Oathbreakers would be willing to serve Isildur's heir if he demands it. Saruman sends the Rangers to the Forsaken Road and what he believes is certain doom. He doesn't expect any who enter will survive. He certainly doesn't expect that the Rangers will be able to extract from the leader of the dead a statement that he WOULD serve Isildur's heir if he had in fact been present rather than an imposter. The critical detail that eluded Saruman here just might be the Ring of Barahir gambit that the Rangers stumbled into, by chance as it were. But for that element, who knows what the leader of the Forsaken might have said to Candaith? Saruman no doubt also had the secondary motive of delaying and weakening the Grey Company.

5. This story isn't done yet. Wadu and Nona appear to be an irrelevant side plot at this point, but do we really believe Nona is completely out of the picture? I sure don't. I believe Turbine is laying the foundations for a later plot development. There is also a curious detail in one of the old texts in the library that Turbine had us read. They point to a dwarf settlement in the White Mountains and a hidden cavern there with something sealed inside. For those of you keeping score at home, the Paths of the Dead are located in the White Mountains, and Orthanc is near them. Saruman was looking at those books for a reason. That reason is why he knew Nar in the first place. Using Nar to try and derail the Grey Company was simply an opportunistic play using an existing tool. My own palantir says that this other dwarf settlement and the mysterious cavern play a key role in future chapters of the epic quest line.

As a final note, we have been discussing Nar and his mystery for some time in this thread here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Game-Spoilers You may find it interesting (or not).

[usis]

Isildur certainly did not come across as very noble in his treatment of the Oathbreakers. He comes across as very arrogant and not someone that is very admirable. The Oathbreakers seemed to not want to fight at all, and remain neutral by agreeing to whichever faction seemed the most powerful.

Actually this coincides with the the school of thought shown in "The Inferno" where Dante shows the lowest part of hell i.e. the worst punishment being reserved for traitors.

[Laire]

This is long, sorry in advance.

Eruanne, PJ did not even include the sons of Elrond in the films. You keep on bashing him when you cannot even remember everything he did and did not include, silly.

Vilnas, very well summarized! The only thing you did not mention is that Saruman has the power to travel about in phantom form (the scene from the book below), which would give him easy access to Nar quickly. *How* he does it is never revealed by Tolkien (to my knowledge), but it may have something to do with his power as the White Wizard, or the Palantir, or both. Heck, it may be that little-mentioned ring he made for himself. Who knows. I also think that Nona is not yet done; she did not take Halbarad's refusal well. She'll be following from behind, mark my words...

I don't think Ergothorn's story is completely done, either. Nar makes mention that Saruman said he had an agent out here, and I would not be surprised if it was Ergothorn; that is the only explanation I can think of of a Gondorian man all the way in Enedwaith. Maybe he was the one who killed Wadu, and then he felt bad and double-crossed Saruman.

And I think that Tugonn's mentioning in the papers is not a coincidence, either, and I mention more about him below. It would be interesting if he and his relationship to Aragorn from 3.1 and Nar's Peak is ever mentioned.

It doesn't make much sense why he would be at Nar's place. Even with underground tunnels, it would be a long ways away from Isengard, where he should be busy breeding his army and starting war with Rohan. Doesn't make sense why the Uruks were trying to get Nar. If it was a setup to get the Grey Company to lose a few men in the Forsaken Road, it would have been more effective to kill them directly. Saruman and that force of Uruks would have been able wipe out the Rangers, or at minimum inflict more casualties than the Oathbreakers.

This leads me to a few thoughts:

It *is* Saruman, or at least it can be. Remember that Phantom!Saruman is canon from the book. *pulls out Da Book*

From the end of The Riders of Rohan:
"Suddenly Gimli looked up, and from the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes."
Aragorn invites him to the fire, he disappears in a flash. The next day, no boot marks at all in the grass.

That description I bolded above is *exactly* what the creepy phantom we see in 3.2.15 looks like. I just did it today, I know

From The White Rider:
"A bent blade is enough for Aragorn to read. But I do not expect him to find any traces. It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night." - Gimli
and
'"Wait a minute!" cried Gimli. "There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?"
"You certainly did not see me," answered Gandalf, "therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused."'

So! Phantom!Saurman bothers the Three Hunters; why should he not bother Nar and the Grey Company, if he can move so easily around?

3. Saruman didn't necessarily know the words of Elrond. It was simply dumb luck. Saruman found out that some of the Oathbreakers were in the region, and wanted to convince the Grey Company to not bother trying to summon them. If the Grey Company tried and failed, they would be less likely to try it again in the Paths of the Dead (they'd report to Aragorn that the Oathbreakers would betray them again, and try to talk him out of going that way). He used Nar, either from 1 or 2 above, to remind the Rangers about the Paths of the Dead. Once that story was put back into their heads, Nar was no longer needed - thus the Uruk attack. Clean up loose ends and make sure Nar didn't let it slip that he was talking to Saruman. Next, he had an agent place notes to the Rangers that would eventually lead them to...of all things...some of the Oathbreakers. The Grey Company would attempt to summon them, and fail...hopefully making them believe it would be a waste of time to try again at the Paths of the Dead.

I feel the best about my third thought. Explains the Uruk attack for me. Also explains why Saruman didn't, and doesn't, make an effort to kill the Grey Company. He needs them now to meet Aragorn and convince him not to summon the Oathbreakers - effectively depriving the Free People of a very powerful army.

A very interesting supposition. He may have also overheard someone of the Grey Company talking about it in his Phantom!Saruman form. Easy enough to sneak around when you're basically a ghost.

(he's not part of the Grey Company is he?). My next pass through I'll copy down the contents of the books and see if anything makes sense. We're missing something there...it wouldn't be used as a plot device twice if it wasn't supposed to reveal anything. Maybe Tugonn is it, and will play a part in the next chapter along with Nona...

Tugonn is, thus far, not revealed to be a part of the Company. If he was, he'd be one of the older members. As it is, we've not ever seen him outside of the Session Play instance. He could very well be dead now (we don't know how old, or young, he is).

Edit: Wait, he is! The sneaker is hiding is Ost Dunhoth! To my knowledge is the first time he's ever seen in the game, outside of the Session Play. He doesn't say anything interesting at the moment, not even after I /begged him to tell me WTH he was doing at Nar's Peak all those years ago.

This and this. It is very likely the the one that Nar actually spoke to was Gandalf the already White. Saruman was most likely friends with them in the past, but the current senile dwarf could easily have confused Gandalf with Saruman, specially if some sane people also confused Gandalf with Saruman in Fangorn...

See my Phantom!Saruman stuff above. They do look the same, but I don't remember Gandalf going phantom on us. Saruman, however, does-- and anyone who runs up the ramp to check it out at the mine part of 3.2.15 can see it themselves.

Aha! I had forgotten that! Thank you for the clarification.
Now if we only could discern why he thought a dead spirit would not see through such a deception....

Desperation :| It sucks. I LIKED Candaith, dang it!

Not that easy to tell from that screenie, but it does appear so. Also, he's considerably taller than every other character in the instance (apart from the trolls, of course).

Well, he was supposed to have been a pure-blooded Númenorean, right?

Isildur's father, Elendil the Tall, wasn't called that for nothing. The dude was nearly 8 feet tall. I'd expect Isildur to be taller! Speaking of Isildur and his ears, I thought it was just his hair-style... his hair is partially covering his ears, not that they're pointed. I'll do the session play tomorrow to get a better look at it and a screenie.

Speaking of height, Aragorn's pretty tall, too. Aragorn is 6'6''. My brother is that height, and yea, it's realllllyyy tall.

/nerd
//I use my brother to get all the stuff on the top shelves

[whheydt]

Speaking of height, Aragorn's pretty tall, too. Aragorn is 6'6''. My brother is that height, and yea, it's realllllyyy.

I once worked with someone who, at 6'8", was the *short* one among his brothers. One was 6'10" and the other 6'11". My colleague always tried to get the company to fly him 1st class for the leg room. Failing that, he'd ask for a bulkhead seat.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Stanimir]

I've read the Silmarillion and the trilogy, but I cannot enter into this scholarly approach to its lore accuracy. I'll approach it simply from a player's perspective of the story.

I honestly didn't like the ending. Candaith lied to them. What did he expect? It says "You are betrayed!" but we're the ones that lied to a thousands of years old ghost, lol. Why did Candaith think he could just fib and convince this dude that he was the Heir of Isildur. I would imagine the cursed guy would know who the real heir was, having been locked to earth for eternity by Isildur.

It seems to me that it would have been better if he simply represented Aragorn, the oathbreakers agreed to help and then simply killed candaith. That way, Candaith would have no blame in his demise.

It just felt unsatisfying. Not satisfying in the sense of happy, I just didn't feel bad for Candaith when he died...thats what you get for trying to deceive a deceiver...you generally lose. It just felt wrong to try and hoodwink these guys. They are the hoodwinkers, not the noble and valiant rangers.

[BrianDavion]

I've read the Silmarillion and the trilogy, but I cannot enter into this scholarly approach to its lore accuracy. I'll approach it simply from a player's perspective of the story.

I honestly didn't like the ending. Candaith lied to them. What did he expect? It says "You are betrayed!" but we're the ones that lied to a thousands of years old ghost, lol. Why did Candaith think he could just fib and convince this dude that he was the Heir of Isildur. I would imagine the cursed guy would know who the real heir was, having been locked to earth for eternity by Isildur.

It seems to me that it would have been better if he simply represented Aragorn, the oathbreakers agreed to help and then simply killed candaith. That way, Candaith would have no blame in his demise.

It just felt unsatisfying. Not satisfying in the sense of happy, I just didn't feel bad for Candaith when he died...thats what you get for trying to deceive a deceiver...you generally lose. It just felt wrong to try and hoodwink these guys. They are the hoodwinkers, not the noble and valiant rangers.

well we have to remember this is simply book 3 of volume 3, something that presumably won't wrap up for another year, sometimes a dissastifying ending then might actually be not bad at all later. as I told a friend a few days ago when we where discussing dragon age 2's ending (which a friend of his thought was dissappointing) "think of what the ending of TESB musta been like when it was first released"

[Linwe-Elfmaiden]

I've read the Silmarillion and the trilogy, but I cannot enter into this scholarly approach to its lore accuracy. I'll approach it simply from a player's perspective of the story.

I honestly didn't like the ending. Candaith lied to them. What did he expect? It says "You are betrayed!" but we're the ones that lied to a thousands of years old ghost, lol. Why did Candaith think he could just fib and convince this dude that he was the Heir of Isildur. I would imagine the cursed guy would know who the real heir was, having been locked to earth for eternity by Isildur.

It seems to me that it would have been better if he simply represented Aragorn, the oathbreakers agreed to help and then simply killed candaith. That way, Candaith would have no blame in his demise.

It just felt unsatisfying. Not satisfying in the sense of happy, I just didn't feel bad for Candaith when he died...thats what you get for trying to deceive a deceiver...you generally lose. It just felt wrong to try and hoodwink these guys. They are the hoodwinkers, not the noble and valiant rangers.

In Vol3.2 we helped get the materials for the making of duplicates of the Ring of Barahir for the Dunadain to use at need to deceive their enemies and draw attention away from Aragorn himself. That is in part what Candaith was doing-- he also stated he wanted to find out if the oathbreakers would in fact obey the heir of Isildur, so presenting himself as the heir was his attempt to find out. He was not doing something un-noble -- quite the opposite. He paid for it with his life, sadly...

[Aloro]

In Vol3.2 we helped get the materials for the making of duplicates of the Ring of Barahir for the Dunadain to use at need to deceive their enemies and draw attention away from Aragorn himself. That is in part what Candaith was doing-- he also stated he wanted to find out if the oathbreakers would in fact obey the heir of Isildur, so presenting himself as the heir was his attempt to find out. He was not doing something un-noble -- quite the opposite. He paid for it with his life, sadly...

This.

Also remember that there was no apparent end to the fighting; the Oathbreakers clearly weren't interested in stopping. Candaith saw that there was no more chance of just walking out of these and took a gamble - the only real option he had left. It failed, but hey, it was a noble and appropriate end.

And yeah, I was sad. I liked him too. Which to me makes this 1000x more satisfying as a plot development. How often do you actually CARE about NPCs that die? It's all too rare in my experience.

[Vilnas]

I also felt that Candaith took his last desperate risk with noble intentions. He wasn't trying to use deceit to bind the Oathbreakers to his service right then and there. His true purpose was to determine whether they would be willing to serve Isildur's heir. The Oathbreaker chieftain had initially engaged in a dialogue with Candaith and said that Candaith had to prove his strength, but the chieftain was simply sending wave after wave of attackers. It was going nowhere and Candaith still hadn't confirmed what he needed to know. At that point Candaith felt he was out of options. Would it have been better to declare that he was Aragorn's representative? Perhaps. Maybe even probably. Still, I didn't fault Candaith for declaring himself Isildur's heir to see where that would lead, even though I knew instantly that it would not end well for Candaith.

[Vilnas]

@Laire, thank you for the follow on about Saruman's phantom projection power. I wanted to mention it but felt I was already pushing up against the dreaded tl:dr.

[Laediel]

Apologies for pulling this up from page 2, I just finished it up yesterday and needed to comment.
I have read the thread in it's entirety and while I can see your points in re validating the play-out, I totally, absolutely, disagree that it is acceptable.

When Candaith lied I was floored, gobsmacked.
The story line was excellent, right up until that false note - no pun intended.
Candaith is one of my heroes, one of my favourite Rangers.
There are ways and ways to have accomplished the same end without turning him into a fraud!
He coulda said "I ask on behalf of him that is owed, will you fulfill...?" and Rioc coulda said "To him we will but you are ours to toy with, bwahahaha!!!" - at which point Candaith woulda stayed a hero to his last and told me to run while he held them off as long he could so that the message could get through.
Then we could grieve for him as the stalwart, true and honourable man we knew and respected.
The lie sullies the respect, whatever the cause... a deed done in the name of the light can be turned to the purpose of the dark, if it creates a shadow... and this does.

I ask, I beg that the dialogue be altered to give Candaith back his honour.

[Macfeast]

The story makes sense just fine. Let me lay out some of my thinking.

1. Nar specifically states at the end that he was speaking to Saruman. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for Gandalf to pretend to Nar that he is Saruman. On the other hand, Saruman has reasons to use Nar (discussed below). I believe we can safely assume Nar's friend really is Saruman.

2. As others have pointed out, there is an ancient prophesy from Malbeth the Seer regarding the Paths of the Dead (which essentially suggests that Isildur's heir will walk the Paths and command the Oathbreakers to fulfill their oath). As one of the Wise, it is far more believable that Saruman knew of it than that he did not. Saruman would also have made a close study of every scrap of information he could glean regarding Isildur at the time of the Last Alliance, as well Gondorian legends generally. Saruman certainly would have known of Erech, the Oathbreakers and the Paths of the Dead. Furthermore, Saruman has lived in Orthanc, which is near the Paths of the Dead, for a very long time. It is entirely believable that Saruman would have made the effort to become well-acquainted with his surroundings and the local legends.

3. Saruman has a Palantir as well as many spies. It is no stretch at all to imagine that he was aware of the movement of the Grey Company out of Rivendell. In fact, we ourselves tell his servant Lotho Sackville Baggins about the trip south in 3.1. The more pressing question is whether he could have learned about the specific orders Elrond gave his sons regarding Aragorn and the Paths of the Dead. In strict lore terms that is difficult because the palantiri gave the power of sight but not sound. However, for my part I am prepared to allow Turbine a small lore break on that point if they need it. Alternatively, I can accept that somehow one of Saruman's spies managed to overhear the sons of Elrond discussing it privately with Halbarad. How about one of the crebain, which are all over the Trollshaws? If the ravens and thrushes of Erebor can understand human speech, why not the crebain?

4. Saruman knows of Malbeth's prophesy, and he knows that Elrond wants to give Aragorn the reminder that the Paths of the Dead are available if the situation is dire. Saruman is worried that this could be just the variable that tips the scales in favor of the Gondor and Rohan. Remember that Saruman is a Maia in mortal form just like Gandalf, and presumably has the instincts and limited foreknowledge that Gandalf demonstrated from time to time. Saruman needs to figure out a way to dissuade the Rangers (and ultimately Aragorn) from taking the Paths. He therefore concocts a scheme to try to scare them out of it. When the initial attempt to do so (3.2) fails, Saruman gets even more devious (3.3) and manipulates the Rangers into trying to verify that the Oathbreakers would be willing to serve Isildur's heir if he demands it. Saruman sends the Rangers to the Forsaken Road and what he believes is certain doom. He doesn't expect any who enter will survive. He certainly doesn't expect that the Rangers will be able to extract from the leader of the dead a statement that he WOULD serve Isildur's heir if he had in fact been present rather than an imposter. The critical detail that eluded Saruman here just might be the Ring of Barahir gambit that the Rangers stumbled into, by chance as it were. But for that element, who knows what the leader of the Forsaken might have said to Candaith? Saruman no doubt also had the secondary motive of delaying and weakening the Grey Company.

5. This story isn't done yet. Wadu and Nona appear to be an irrelevant side plot at this point, but do we really believe Nona is completely out of the picture? I sure don't. I believe Turbine is laying the foundations for a later plot development. There is also a curious detail in one of the old texts in the library that Turbine had us read. They point to a dwarf settlement in the White Mountains and a hidden cavern there with something sealed inside. For those of you keeping score at home, the Paths of the Dead are located in the White Mountains, and Orthanc is near them. Saruman was looking at those books for a reason. That reason is why he knew Nar in the first place. Using Nar to try and derail the Grey Company was simply an opportunistic play using an existing tool. My own palantir says that this other dwarf settlement and the mysterious cavern play a key role in future chapters of the epic quest line.

As a final note, we have been discussing Nar and his mystery for some time in this thread here: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Game-Spoilers You may find it interesting (or not).

This makes a whole lot of sense, I think. As for why Saruman would later want to send a group of Uruks to kill Nár off, maybe he just doesn't want the Grey Company to know that he is behind it. Delay them by having Nár speak of things they thought was secret, then wipe him out to leave the puzzle unsolved; That would leave the Grey Company with a lot of unanswered question, and would also be a huge blow to their morale. Whereas if the Grey Company instead had found out that it was Saruman who was behind it (which they eventually did), they would be all the more motivated to get a move on again. In a way, Saruman suceeded, even though we did find out that he was behind it; The Grey Company have been delayed, delayed from becoming an imminent threat to him; Thanks to this delay, the Grey Company won't be a factor in the upcoming battles that takes place in Rohan.
Unfortunately for him, there was another threat that he did not see coming, effectively meaning that delaying the Grey Company didn't do him much good. Off course, our characters don't know that, yet.

As for Nár and Frithgeir, consider this. If they have been holed up at Zugrugund for a long time without outside news, they would know nothing about Saruman's treachery. Saruman himself certainly wouldn't have told them. Hence, why Nár would trust him. Didn't see anyone bring it up, so I thought I would do so.

As for why Saruman would be outside of Isengard, remember that he didn't sit quietly in his tower, waiting for things to happen. He was sneaking around outside, pulling pranks on all sorts of travelling people; Eomer was able to describe him very well, which leads me to believe that Saruman has done this a few times already, even before he visited the Three Hunters. It's not unreasonable to think that he would keep an eye on the things going on in Dunland, too, especially if he knew about the Grey Company's journey.

I honestly didn't like the ending. Candaith lied to them. What did he expect? It says "You are betrayed!" but we're the ones that lied to a thousands of years old ghost, lol. Why did Candaith think he could just fib and convince this dude that he was the Heir of Isildur. I would imagine the cursed guy would know who the real heir was, having been locked to earth for eternity by Isildur.

He was getting frustrated. The oath-breaker leader seemed content with letting us fight his minions until we just fell over and died, be it of a sword-wound or merely by tiring us out, and Candaith realized this. Drastic measures was needed to put a stop to this, or else we would have eventually fallen to the seemingly endless numbers of oath-breakers. Remember that we were fighting for our very lifes there; It's not like he had the time to consider the options available, and determine which was less risky. What normally would seem like a stupid decision, looks a lot better if you believe it could end up saving your life. Candaith, in a moment of life and death, took a big risk without having the time to think i through, and paid for it.

And yeah, I was sad. I liked him too. Which to me makes this 1000x more satisfying as a plot development. How often do you actually CARE about NPCs that die? It's all too rare in my experience.

Agreed. I'm going to miss Candaith. The cutscene afterwards was very touching.

[Laediel]

He was getting frustrated. The oath-breaker leader seemed content with letting us fight his minions until we just fell over and died, be it of a sword-wound or merely by tiring us out, and Candaith realized this. Drastic measures was needed to put a stop to this, or else we would have eventually fallen to the seemingly endless numbers of oath-breakers. Remember that we were fighting for our very lifes there; It's not like he had the time to consider the options available and determining which was less risky. What normally would seem like a stupid decision, looks a lot better if you believe it could end up saving your life. Candaith, in a moment of life and death, took a big risk without having the time to think i through, and paid for it.



Agreed. I'm going to miss Candaith.

Apologies for butting in when you weren't addressing me, but while I understand the rationale here - Candaith was between a rock and a hard place with no easy solution, thus his actions were justified - I am saying that the entire scene is falsified by that single lie, and so is Candaith, and Candaith's direction until now, because 'once a liar always a liar', and it doesn't matter if the intent was for the good, or whatever, it is still a corruption of truth, wherein all nobility stands, and thus dishonours the speaker.

The Rangers are supposed to be extraordinary. They are a cut above and are supposed to be of such quality that they are very hard to turn... and when one is turned to darkness, it's a big deal. When they go to the bad, they go even further or more thoroughly than 'mere mortals'.

Telling a lie to cover your ???? or to attain a difficult goal is for ordinary people, it's for mere humans to justify such actions, not for Dunedain Rangers. It doesn't matter in what cause or for what reward, it is still false and is voluntarily stepping onto the road to darkness.

Every other Ranger that we have seen die has done so bravely and with courage and honour.
Candaith died bravely, foolishly, and with his honour besmirched, and I don't think the last is necessary or even warranted.

I would still like to see the dialogue of those few sentences altered.
Nothing else has to change, just have the Oathbreakers 'live up to' their rep, and let Candaith die, but in honour.
Please.

[FundinStrongarm]

I very much enjoyed the story. The Chapter completion rewards, not so much. Both Chapters 2 and 3 give heavy armour wearers leggings. Bleh. Gloves for medium wearers is nice (although I haven't run my Hunter through yet to see how good they are). Shoulder pads for light armour is pretty bleh as well. They give a minor crit rating buff over Daervonn's from the Volume 2 storyline and a small armour bonus. Call me disappointed. I'd've liked new gloves for all 3 types of armour.

As for the other rewards, some nice surprises. A reforged 2nd level 65 item was nice (although perhaps a weapon for Minstrels would have been more appropriate). The tapestry is nice. The candleabrum would have been better as thin furniture.

[Mandella]

The Rangers are supposed to be extraordinary. They are a cut above and are supposed to be of such quality that they are very hard to turn... and when one is turned to darkness, it's a big deal. When they go to the bad, they go even further or more thoroughly than 'mere mortals'.

Then I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive him his moment of weakness.

But as much as I hate to say it, I think you are overestimating the Rangers. The Dunedain did indeed hold themselves to a high standard, but they were still men, and subject to all our failings. They could be haughty and arrogant, condescending of others, and in fact to a large part they owe their continued existence to fabrication and deception. I don't think Candiath walked in there planning what he did, and if he had survived he would have been ashamed of it. But, as often happens with fundamentally good men, he committed a moral failing to save others -- for the greater good.

I do think the writers (writer?) of this quest understood this, the gravity of what Candiath was driven to do, and wrote it the way they meant it. I too was "gobsmacked" when he stepped up and claimed to be king (and for one brief second I thought we were seeing the mother of all plot twists -- Aragorn was the decoy!), but I understood when I had a second to think about it.

The way it played out in my session was particularly apt. I was there with a Kinsman, and he had just taken the time to type out, expressing his frustration and confusion, something along the lines of, "??? are we supposed to *do* here?? We're losing this!" when Candiath shouted ENOUGH!

Other matters. Thanks to those that pointed out that Saraman was well known to gad about Middle Earth in phantom form. From the clues given in the book, it is reasonable to conjecture that while he could see and hear and possibly speak in said form, he could not interact with his environment. He needed someone to do that for him -- in this case poor old Nar. As for the Uruks, remember that Tolkien's Wizards showed very little magical strength unless pushed by dire need. Saruman could not just grab Nar and teleport him away.

But that said, it is obvious that this chapter is mostly setting the stage for later revelations. There are many unanswered questions in my mind. Not plot holes, but questions that I am sure will be addressed -- eventually...

[knowfere]

I have to say that this whole book is one of the best ones yet! I was on the edge of my seat! To those who believe Candaith lost his nobility when he 'lied', then it should have been discerned when the fake rings were forged as this was the beginning of the false-hood, and should be attributed to ALL the Grey Company. I think any of them would have done the same thing in Candaith's place as this was the whole intention with the fake ring forging, no?

I know that Tolkien said it was up to others to make continuing stories from what he and/or anyone else has written, and whether or not I agree with much of what Turbine does game-wise, I must say that the story creation is awesome. I really like how it is it's own story while at the same time, so in cohesion with what Tolkien wrote so as to really let me live in Tolkiens story and experience past times with session plays

R.I.P. Candaith

[Drarin]

I honestly do not think that Candaith lost his nobility in the end. Everything he did, though his lie does include in, was for his cheiftan. The dead aren't exactly known for letting those who intrude leave alive. They knew the gamble, but went in anyway, because Aragorn would need their help. It became apparent that the dead had no interest in helping them, no matter what, so Candaith decided on a desparation measure, namely claiming to be the heir. I have a feeling, even if he didn't, the dead would not have simply let him leave. His loyalty to Aragorn was worth more to him then his personal honour, and to me that is true nobility.

[Laediel]

Then I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive him his moment of weakness.

My forgiveness isn't necessary, and I will grieve his loss... but I do honestly believe that the lie was still a false note in an otherwise well-wrought tale.

But as much as I hate to say it, I think you are overestimating the Rangers. The Dunedain did indeed hold themselves to a high standard, but they were still men, and subject to all our failings. They could be haughty and arrogant, condescending of others, and in fact to a large part they owe their continued existence to fabrication and deception.

I disagree, with respect.
They hold themselves to a higher standard because that is their nature and reflects their abilities - when they failed, in the "beginning", they became the Black Numenoreans, and we were given a taste of what value the dark places on turning a Ranger with Amdir's loss.
They hold to themselves and do not answer to any but those they deem pertinent.

Because they do not explain their actions or put out some good PR to the local populace does not at all equate to deception or fabrication... they do the job they need to do without looking for understanding or thanks, but they don't lie in word or deed, not anywhere that I can ever recall, ever.

I don't think Candiath walked in there planning what he did, and if he had survived he would have been ashamed of it. But, as often happens with fundamentally good men, he committed a morale failing to save others -- for the greater good.

I understand your point, and once again disagree that it was necessary for plot progression to turn him towards the dark, even infinitesimally, and then kill him off.
I do not know where the story goes from here, of course, but I cannot see where it could possibly be a major or even pertinent turning that he besmirch himself before death - his death, yes, we are supposed to suffer loss, and we are even supposed to see evil work it's will upon those ranked against it, and yes, to be betrayed.
But Candaith did not need (for matters of plot or story) to be shamed, when he could have as easily been simply foolish or desperate in entering the cave, rather than foolish, desperate and a liar. It was an act, desperate or not, that went against his very nature.

I do think the writers (writer?) of this quest understood this, the gravity of what Candiath was driven to do, and wrote it the way they meant it. I too was "gobsmacked" when he stepped up and claimed to be king (and for one brief second I thought we were seeing the mother of all plot twists -- Aragorn was the decoy!), but I understood when I had a second to think about it.

I understood it, I merely disagree with the necessity. Again with the qualifier that I do not know the story's progression past this point... but if he has needlessly besmirched himself, if there isn't a high imperative for his dishonour (which is not to say his death, loss in war just is), then... my faith in the tellers of this tale will also be harmed, and I'd just rather not go that road... consider it humanly selfish if you will - I really am big on benefit of the doubt, patience and allowing the dealer to deal - and this would be my first betrayal suffered in that regard.
I'm not even saying everyone has to agree with me, just that this is my point, and my request, and the reasons behind it.

[Mandella]

I'm not even saying everyone has to agree with me, just that this is my point, and my request, and the reasons behind it.

Even though it doesn't seem either of us is going to be changing the other's mind, let me say it is refreshing to be able to have a polite discussion about this on these boards. Whatever disagreements I might have with Turbine or other players, this community can still be top notch!

But back on topic, I hope when this entire story arc has completed the Devs writing it treat us to an extensive "behind the scenes" look at the creative processes that went into plotting it. That will be most interesting indeed!

[Aloro]

The Rangers are supposed to be extraordinary. They are a cut above and are supposed to be of such quality that they are very hard to turn... and when one is turned to darkness, it's a big deal. When they go to the bad, they go even further or more thoroughly than 'mere mortals'.

Telling a lie to cover your ???? or to attain a difficult goal is for ordinary people, it's for mere humans to justify such actions, not for Dunedain Rangers. It doesn't matter in what cause or for what reward, it is still false and is voluntarily stepping onto the road to darkness.

I don't think Tolkien would have seen it that way, truthfully. In dire straits, even a hero may try some extreme gambles, when faced with certain death and untrustworthy foes.

Further to the point, I know of nowhere in his writings that Tolkien said or suggested that Rangers are held to a higher moral standard than anyone else. Yes, they've taken a grim and fell task upon themselves - guarding the remains of their kingdom of old - but they're still people, with flaws. If you know of anywhere Tolkien said that no Ranger ever let a lie pass his lips for any reason, I'd be very very interested to see it.

Moreover, I think you're exaggerating the extent of Candaith's perfidy and fall to darkness here. He was sent on a very important mission, one that he was quite willing to spend his life on: he was to discover if the Oathbreakers would follow the Heir of Isuldur. At all costs he was to discover this. Well, he wasn't getting the answers he needed, and it looked like the end was coming soon, so he did what he absolutely had to, in order to complete his mission. He took a crazy risk because he had no alternative ways to serve his Chieftain, and through him all of Eriador, and Middle-earth in general. The stakes are pretty high here, remember. It's not like Candaith just decided to lie on a whim.

Finally, I'm sorry, but lying isn't a mortal sin in Tolkien's world; yes, it's rare, and yes, it's not good, and yes, it typically represents a lack of integrity. Falling to darkness entails rather a lot more, though, than misleading someone who's trying to kill you; it means embracing corruption and willing yourself to bring ills to your fellow beings. Candaith did no such thing at any point, and Tolkien wouldn't judge him as having fallen to darkness. At worst he could be said to have made a poor choice under duress, while at best one could say he saw no alternative and risked his life to try to get the answers he was assigned to retrieve.

[Gamlieldar]

Thanks for this thread! This has answered a lot of questions!

I never saw the option to talk to Nar outside of the quests. It's a shame I didn't realize his out-of-quest text until reading this forum. As for Candaith's death, it was sad, and the cinematic gave a bittersweet and sad ending. The Lone-lands/Ettenmoors music put icing on the cake.I kind of agree with Aloro's stance on Candaith's reason for lying, though I myself am not a fan of lying. It wasn't that he wanted to lie, but it was that he was trying to see if the Oathbreakers would obey the command of the heir of Isildur. It all makes sense. I only have one question that's buzzing in my head:

Did any other rangers in 3.3 die besides Candaith? Quest text has been implying that more than one ranger died.

[Lohi]

It seems like it's pretty common for people to not see them. I was wrong on this one!

I was surprised too first time I bumped into a player who said "I don't get it". Some players I guess don't often look at those extras. I can imagine some players who typically click past stuff as fast as they can to get to the rewards, but I have run into players very interested in the story line who missed this as well...

[Lohi]

I don't think Ergothorn's story is completely done, either.

This is my main point of confusion. I don't believe it's done either, though initially I was baffled why this big plot point was just discarded. Also the big plot point from Wadu and his sword and where he got it was dropped.

For Ergothorn, at one point I was thinking he was an ally of Saruman (or a patsy) who was dropping hints trying to get info about the rangers through their responses. But then why was he killed, presumably by Saruman? Why was he wearing the livery of Gondor? If he was a good guy instead though then why didn't he just come forward and talk to the rangers directly? He's clearly not a shade from the past because he had an actual body.

Given the strong hints that the company is moving on and won't waste anymore time on this side issue of Nar, I wonder how they'll keep this story going or wrap it up? I suspect Nona will show up following us at least.

[Munuc]

Did any other rangers in 3.3 die besides Candaith? Quest text has been implying that more than one ranger died.

Another generic 'Ranger' is killed as you run out of the barrow, so two die in front of us.