Proposed Warleader Revisions

[Kelsen]

Here are the proposed Warleader revisions for Isengard.

Keep in mind that these are just ideas- nothing set in stone.

http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/201...eader-updates/

[Patrickwg]

Nice to see they are getting some damage love in this update.

very nice addition

Power of Fear (NEW)
-Whenever you crit with a “Tactical Skill” your next heal has 0 inductions/power cost
-Available at Rank 3


overall they are all good changes

[Elyske]

I love everything about this, but I can't help but think Purge would be better served as something as a stance where the buff Purged is given to all creeps in your group. While Purged is on them, they are immune to CC but you get damaged by like 150 damage, as if they took a CC pot but you take the cost. It can work out like a Shieldwall to CC, that is group wide. With groups that have more then one WL, they can bounce having Purge on and bubbling the WL if he needs it. Just a suggestion.

[CandiceAurora]

The lack of a slow, or short term CC in any capacity still frustrates me. However, Brawler's stance is a lot more attractive now, and I appreciate that, the lowering of shout cooldowns, pretty much makes us a much more viable solo class if someone were to choose that path. Any chance something similar can be done with our other stance? Currently, they're both undesirable.

Purge will still be unattractive, it still just doesn't do enough to warrant that much. Five seconds of immunity again feels far too short for a skill that is on a five minute cooldown. I hate to compare to other classes, but again, LM can provide immunity for upwards of thirty seconds, thus I don't see it as unreasonable to give immunity for ten to fifteen seconds.

And finally, I still wouldn't slot lead the charge, given my other options. I think most WLs have managed to turn putting down the rank three (and thirteen I guess) in a game, of how close can I drop this to the freeps before I get put in combat.

Overall, I think these are a really good start of changes, but again, please provide WLs with some CC, even if it is a really short three second stun, or fear, or something. Heck, I'll take a slow.

[Gilgalade]

Nice to see that we are being thought about, a little bit at least, but honestly? These changes are just not that great to give this class the love it needs. The other classes had loads of new changes and revamp idea's... WL not so much, I feel neglected..... again. A few nice changes like the Brawlers stance change, but seriously; give this class a serious over haul and a revamp or delete it.

~We have skills that could use fine tuning, like Grip for example: Nice skill, could use some tweaking to make it more reliable in dire situations. Far to much frustration when that heal you or an ally need most is stolen away by a spider pet, or worse, your banner, absolutely frustrating! PLEASE make it so that banners can not get healed! And that Grip will NOT heal any pet kind what so ever.

~How about the difficulty of effective healing when we have 1-2 npc's or even one freep on you, nothing more then just a meat sack if you can't heal and have to kite npc's or freeps around. Have you also tried running around on a WL with mass focus fire, CC and slows targeted on to you? Not very fun AT ALL. Things that could make Commanders Stance better, and us to be more effective healers: Make it so that our inductions are harder to interrupt, and possible even shorter inductions on our healing skills; these would be added buffs/perks that would only be usable in Commanders Stance.

~Or what about the possibility of getting a new skill that puts our shield to use, the possibility of stunning a freep for a few secs to buy some time for healing or damage, and possibly a knockdown on a critical hit? Hmmmm... a slow or fear would be nice too, from what I hear from the other WL's.

~One more point, the time and effort put in to a high ranked WL is not rewarding what so ever, there is no difference practically so to speak between a rank 9, and a rank 12 WL. That's seriously saying something. Give the higher ranks something that sets them aside, makes them different, and better from there lower counterparts, after all, they are deserving of something quite unique and effective at such a high rank.

~Oh and give us some other cool skins too, possibly shield and weapon cosmetics... maybe? Make us look appealing at least haha.

This class has become very frustrating to play now a days, and has the potential to be fun again. Seriously please put more thought into this class, or put none at all. The WL is a dying breed imo, at lest it is on my server. The class needs more love if its to become what it used to be.

Thanks.

Gothlag Rank 9 WL

[Loth_Don]

These are all good steps in the right direction. Certainly helping out the warleaders tactical dps makes them more viable for solo play. I disagree with others that warleaders need CC- but like all other classes in the game, giving them something at high rank makes sense. I'm pretty sure most warleaders would prefer a fear or snare to go with traited black speech instead of a damage over time effect, and given the effort needed for that, I don't think it would be wildly unfair for a 4 sec fear or 8 sec -30% snare to replace the dot.

Regarding Purge:
There is so much AoE cc coming from freeps that a long cooldown forces a warleader and the creeps he plays with to consider when exactly is a good time to use this and when is it a waste. Since most creeps are used to potting quickly out of CC, a lengthy CD would lead to frustration for the warleader.

I think the cd should be very low- from 0 seconds to 30 seconds. You can keep the morale and power costs high. That's something other players in the group can understand, which is key to this skill being useful and not wasted because they need to know as much as the warleader when they can expect help with cc. If the skill is locked by a 5 minute cooldown, players won't know when the warleader can help out and pot out of the cc themselves. If the skill has a very low cd or none at all, they simply have to know whether or not the warleader has decent morale/power pool, something all players in his group can easily glance over to be aware of. They can then expect the warleader will likely use purge or snap if they are cc'd and not immediately pot out.

Like in PvE, players come to expect that support classes can perform their support roles on a frequent basis as long as they themselves are 'healthy'. Now if you made this a skill that didn't require a trait, I'd be fine with both the morale/power costs and cd you have proposed- it probably won't get used most of the time, but eventually players that play with me will know I have it and maybe even ask for it, but they won't count on it at all, just think I'm awesome if I save them somehow when they weren't expecting it by using it.

But as a trait, it's such a hit and miss thing that I still won't bother with it under your proposed changes.

[aklouie]

Initial thoughts. I appreciate that the class is being looked at again on the DPS side, but we can't neglect the healing side.

Stick 1 melee freep (or ranged to a lesser degree) on a warleader and it's a near shutdown on healing capability for anything besides bubble and single target heal. If we stick one creep, any class, on a minstrel/captain/runekeeper, it's definitely not the same shutdown.

I propose that the WL purge be rebuilt to a stance that decreases the inductions for healing (say by 25%) on self and also provides resistance against CC (increase resistance by 10% (or reduces the effect duration by 25%)) for the group. That way we have an option when getting beat on to move away from commander stance (decreasing our healing output in terms of heals per skill, also the threat reduction which is massive), and going to a hardier, less effective healing, more power intensive (due to having to put out more healing), but better for when 'tanking' a freep attacking you. Yet not making them invincible healing machines.

Even with your changes I would never slot purge. There's just so much freep CC that can be tossed around that the cost and cooldown is just too great to make me want to break a group of freep's mezzes fears. That's what pots are for and the occasional snaps. A 1 time per battle (usual battles are under 5 minutes) aoe snap isn't worth much when we get aoe'd again with another CC shortly thereafter.

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DPS stance I appreciate your changes and don't think they are too out of wack. If we can get purge to be changed per my suggestion above, I do not feel that we need a CC. Inherently the WL is a group orientated class and CC is what other creeps need to provide. Having a skill rotation that's worth it (besides me flipping to brawler, firing all my skills.. then either sitting around or flipping back to commander for the next 12 seconds or so) makes the WL a viable class to solo with to a better degree.

Again, I appreciate that our classes are being looked at. Good luck on the balance of creep vs freep as it's single target DPS vs AoE DPS, inherently inbalanced as you transition from 1-1, to 6-6, to 24-24.

--------------------------------

In other news, please relook at the Uruk heal and have it hit self at least and 5 other creeps. It is amazingly painful to see how few times you actually heal yourself with it.

[Kildozre]

All good ideas, fellow Warleaders. I just hope something is done this time. Update after update I've seen improvements made to every class but ours. We are an Endangered Species. Even though these are proposed revisions, I think the class is in dire need of a rebuild. It is so bad out there as a WL, that if given the chance, I would delete my rank 12 for a Infamy Refund. But if the powers that be, read this thread? Heres my two cents...
Healers Stance- WL should be able to heal on the move, shorter inductions and a chance to heal without interruptions. While sacrificing outgoing damage.
Fighting Stance- WL should be able to use the Shield to stun or Slow an enemy with a Shout.
Warleader should be able to "SNAP" himself and "BUBBLE" himself.
Purge- Please stop tweeking this skill and get rid of it all together please! Replacing this skill with anything, would be an improvement.
Warleader skins- would be nice if you could actually tell a higher ranking WL from lower ones.
And even more simple request...Different graphics for different banners. Simple.
And even though Get a Grip is a racial...IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED!
These are just a couple simple suggestions from an old broken down Warleader.

[Thorandril]

Ctw on the run, halve induction of quit whining. Class fixed. The dos change is a little weird but will make it less terrible getting to rank 5. It's odd though since WL's have always been more useful as heals, not dps.

[aklouie]

Also a bug fix or three would be nice

When rezzing and you die soon after firing the rez, everyone rezzed who takes it goes to the rez circle. Also reported to occur if you rez while in the air.

Firing uruk heal when near to death and it doesn't hit, but it's used up anyways.

If you can shorten the execution time between bubble being activated and going off that would be nice too. Plenty of times throwing a bubble on a half dead focussed reaver who is dead before the bubble gets onto them

[Thorandril]

The near death skill delay exists for all classes and is more a mechanic then class problem. But quicker bubble would be nice

[stubing]

This is a great update, but Warleaders still lack something huge. We need some sort of CC skill. A slow of some sort or a stun. Any CC really.

[Elyske]

Before I forget, you could consider giving the WL's a Shield-throw skill, similiar to what the uruk did to Aragorn in the first film, (I know you don't have rights but it doesn't mean you can't do a shield-toss skill)

I don't care if it stuns the freeps, I just want to throw my shield at them and watch them get hurt lol

[CandiceAurora]

In regards to Uruk Heal, I'd much rather see the skill turned into something that GUARANTEES a heal on me and my target. Take the randomness out of it, take the healing of pets out, make it a better overall skill that will do what I intend it to do, rather than (in my case lately) hitting no one.

Also, must agree with Killdozer, different banner graphics for each banner type would be fantastic.

[Ivaneus]

I didn't realize there was a thread for this so I put my comments on your MY.Lotro page. Which, By the Way, provides no clue that you even work at Turbine so I was a bit baffled at first hence the brutality and basic questions in this post. I had no idea who you were: Worgnahk, a random player, the Mouth of Sauron himself, or a Turbine employee so I was covering my bases. Anyway, here I go again:

Okay, first off, this is a noble effort.
There’s just one major issue,
Do you actually play a Warleader?

Let me start with what you said about Warleaders,

“Durable and aggressive, he is both the tank and primary support of the Creep army.”

Primary support? What happened to healer? You are aware that Defilers were not added until later in the game and that from launch until then Warleaders were the sole creep healer are you not?

“While his ability to survive and keep his allies alive is strong, he lacks ability to really stand on his own in an effective way.”

I beg to differ!!! When a Warleader is being focus fired they are unable to keep their allies standing effectively. And, on the other hand, they are plenty capable of “standing on their on in a really effective way.” The Warleader is the most rank dependent creep for standing on its own, but from Rank 6 onward they can be godly in the right hands! Case in point, while most players are struggling with Guardians right now, I, with my rank 7 Warleader, have been consistently thrashing Guardians, even killing some WITHOUT EVER HEALING. Granted, that was not a very good Guardian but I think my point is made.

“Lack of Synergy synergy between offensive and defensive skills”

Ummm, you have rotation gaps in your healing and DPSing rotations so you can throw one or the other in to add utility to what you are doing. That sounds like synergy to me. The fact that most players do not do this speaks to me of two things, power issues (those DPS skills can really start to suck down the blue, particularly at lower ranks) and being stuck in a box. Wither it's the healbot, "I only hits the green buttons" box or it's the "moar DPS and aggro!" Tank/DPS box.

Your proposed, Power of Fear, while tempting, is TOO POWERFUL. You know that heals are tactical skills right? Do you realize that this change would make it so that a Warleader could crit with a heal or yell and then fire off Quitters Never Win instantaneously for extra power and a 3k+ heal??? How about being able to heal up with Quit Whining and Fight with no induction, no power cost, and without dropping Brawlers Stance versus a Champion in a 1v1? I could go on but I think my point has been made.


Lead the Charge, I cannot tell if the trait will retain its current bonus and gain this new one or if its current bonus is being replaced by this. Until that becomes apparent I will not comment on the effectiveness of the trait as is.

However, I will say that the current 3 second induction is perfectly fine because, as Warleaders who get their banners will soon learn, it is immune to induction knockbakcs meaning that only CC or an interrupt skill will slow it down. They are reliable skills that benefit your entire Warband so I do not think that the 3 second induction is too much to ask for being able to put the flags down.


I completely dislike your proposed change to Call the Shadow. Call the Shadow serves a limited purpose for a single Warleader, but remember that Wareleaders are support creatures. Wargs do shadow damage, Black Arrows have a Shadow Damage skill, Weavers have some Shadow Damage, and our yells are Shadow Damage. Call the Shadow makes the damage from all those sources greater for its duration making it a strange relative of the Captain’s Revealing Mark for bursting through a freep quickly. More importantly I do not like increasing the power cost especially since I already have a good crit rate and so do not need an unnecessary buff to it. Especially since this will be used in conjunction with your “Power of Fear" change to give guaranteed healing every 45 seconds to the Warleader!!! Bad move!


Menacing Roar While I agree that it needs to be changed I think you’ve gone overboard on this. We do not need to debuff tactical defence. Simply take the current traited version of Menacing Roar and make that the standard version (minus the cooldown modifier). Then make the trait add +2 targets and decrease the cooldown by a more significant margin so that it has real utility for a Warleader by adding a lot more AOE capability to them.


Change to Brawlers While I appreciate the effort, I worry that this too is too much. I’m tank/healer. Not tank/healer/tactical nuker of the creeps. No, Warleaders won’t be totally out of control after a change such as this but they will be a lot more powerful. I don’t think it has been fully accounted for, especially considering that Power of Fear trait. Chance for a crit every 20 seconds on 2 skills? That’s one level of OP. Chance for a crit every 10 seconds on 2 skills? That’s a whole new level of OPness.

Additionally, Warleaders do not have the power regeneration to sustain this level of skill use. We’re crying for trait slots as is so the +60 ICPR trait is out the window and power regen basically stops improving at Rank 7 and doesn’t resume until Rank 11 with the +300 ICPR and ICMR racial trait. If you’re going to increase skill use potential like this then you need to make sure that it is a level of skill use that can be maintained for *some* duration and that it is not a very quick trip into no power.


I’m sorry I got that harsh in there. But I really feel that you do not fully grssp the current dynamics of the Warleader or just how much these proposed changes will affect them. Do Warleaders need some work? YES! But these changes don’t address core complaints about the class properly.

They leave Warleaders with:
-Absolutely Zero CC. STILL!
-No Escape skills
-A Way to get a heal off while being focus fired that is overpowered in solo or small group situations
-No way to prevent induction knockback for a short time
-Only 5 attack skills
-Only 3 heals (discounting the racial)

The 3rd point overlaps with the fourth, but after point 3 would get nerfed (and it WOULD) then Warleaders would be back to point 4.

Changes I Suggest

I am currently fine with having no CC. I can survive and win fights in a 1v1 but it is a major issue when healing. Towards that end propose one of two things be done:

Option A: Give us a shield skill stun/Daze. NPC Warleaders have a fantastic shield smack animation and I want to be able to use that animation on my Warleader! It will make it so that a Warleader that is getting hit by a single freep can CC them and then pop off heals.

Option B: Give us a a cooldown ability (5-10 minute range) where we gain 12-30 seconds of 100% Resistance rates and our inductions are immune to knockbacks. Proposed name for such a skill would be: Nothing's Gonna Stop This, or Indomitable Will. It would serve as our version of Pledge, but instead of ignoring damage, we ignore incoming CCs, Bleeds, etc. and are able to bang out inductions without getting knocked back. Only way to stop the Warleader from healing is to get some melees on it interrupting every single heal for the duration of its effect. Or kill the Warleader.

A new melee skill. We have the -25% cooldown in Brawlers Stance, let's put it to some real use! This would mostly be for if we do not get a shield stun. In that case, may I suggest we get a shield skill that does a fair amount of damage (250-300 common per hit, roughly) with a lower power cost than Fracture (86 power perhaps?) and a small aggro boost? This would increase both DPS and Tanking with one swift stroke! I would suggest a . . . 12-15 second cooldown on it so that it cannot supplant Fracture for Tanking purposes (due to cooldown) but serves to bolster aggro generation and damage output.

Removal of the Harsh Language Trait. I do not know of any Warleader who does not slot this trait. We simply have too little too offer outside of healing so it is a non-negotiable. Since that is the case I would suggest giving Warleaders a flat 25% boost to their base healing and removing the trait so that we can have more flexibility in our builds.

Additional power regen. Creep regen rates are supposed to be lopsided, I know. But the changes to the relic system has really made things bad for us out there. The regen rates are something that need to be re-examined across all creep classes as they have not kept up with the changes to the combat system and the boosts to freep regeneration.

Command Post Add +3% outgoing healing to the list of buffs on this puppy and I guarantee that no one will think it's not worth the 3 second induction to put it down.

That's all for now. Thank you for your time and your effort in making these suggstions and for reading this. I wish it didn’t have to sting so much, but I felt it was necessary.

Sincerely,
Ugmog

[CandiceAurora]

Case in point, while most players are struggling with Guardians right now, I, with my rank 7 Warleader, have been consistently thrashing Guardians, even killing some WITHOUT EVER HEALING. Granted, that was not a very good Guardian but I think my point is made.

I'm not sure that is a point. Not to totally derail the topic, but war leaders needed a DPS boost, or at the very least a lowering to our resistance rates. Fighting one sub par guardian, doesn't mean that war leaders overall thrash guardians.

I've been soloing a lot more lately due to being in a different time zone than my normal partners in crime, and out of the ten or so regular guardians I come across, I generally only beat one or two consistently, unless I get some beautiful crits. Overall, the stacking of bleeds, and overall hits above 1,000k drill me to the ground, extremely quickly. Now, I could be doing something wrong. Also, no point trying to heal, any freep class worth their weight will never allow you to get a heal off, attack speed along, and the way they changed attacks to work, pretty much interrupts us consistently.

However, reading this brings up a really good point. I'd hazard a guess that over 50% of my shouts are resisted. Could this please be addressed in some way? Our DPS is cut significantly by the constant resist rates, and I think just changing that in some way could viably address some of the DPS issues. Also, please don't throw our support and healing roles out the window, they could do with some love, even if it is just a skill to minimize interruptions. Good to see some other views here even if I strongly disagree with them.

[Ivaneus]

I'm not sure that is a point. Not to totally derail the topic, but war leaders needed a DPS boost, or at the very least a lowering to our resistance rates. Fighting one sub par guardian, doesn't mean that war leaders overall thrash guardians.

I've been soloing a lot more lately due to being in a different time zone than my normal partners in crime, and out of the ten or so regular guardians I come across, I generally only beat one or two consistently, unless I get some beautiful crits. Overall, the stacking of bleeds, and overall hits above 1,000k drill me to the ground, extremely quickly. Now, I could be doing something wrong. Also, no point trying to heal, any freep class worth their weight will never allow you to get a heal off, attack speed along, and the way they changed attacks to work, pretty much interrupts us consistently.

However, reading this brings up a really good point. I'd hazard a guess that over 50% of my shouts are resisted. Could this please be addressed in some way? Our DPS is cut significantly by the constant resist rates, and I think just changing that in some way could viably address some of the DPS issues. Also, please don't throw our support and healing roles out the window, they could do with some love, even if it is just a skill to minimize interruptions. Good to see some other views here even if I strongly disagree with them.

Okay, I think I see your problem.

Derailment Alert!

When you are trying to heal this is what you do, you hit your heal button and start the induction. Then you hit it again. This queues up the same heal so that if/when you get interrupted the heal instantly starts up again and you are already (on Crack the Whip at least) at 30% completion by the time their interrupt animation is done playing. The other issue is probably that you don't trait for extra damage, even sacrificing some for health and if you're also running with Aura of Protection then you'll find that Freeps will easily grind you up and spit you out (except Minstrels and LMs. And RKs who will still kill you, but take longer to do it).

I also use the in-combat banner and it works wonders. That alone is what has made my Guardian fighting experience into what it is today. Anyway, try that trick out and look into messing with your corruptions and see how it goes.

De-Railment Over

On the resistance note, I haven't noticed it. Obviously tanks resist a lot more than other classes. But Otherwise it's just the Tacticals (who are stacking Will). Could be that you're just having some rotten luck. Now if Call the Shadow lowered Resistance and Shadow Mitigation then it would really be a nice Debuff to have on hand.

Also, I agree with your assesment of killing one subpar Guardian. It was the sans heals part that made it memorable to me but if you never heal while fighting I can see why it wouldn't make an impression on you. So I'll try another track: Since the patch, I have killed two shield traited Wardens in one on ones. Unfortunately that claim (though true) addresses nothing since you judge what I say by what you can do (and vice versa).

Do I think Warleaders could use a DPS boost? YES! But not one as big as what has been proposed here.

Do I agree that they cannot truly stand on their own? NO! My experiences tell me that I can stand up and give a good account of myself to all classes but Burglars and Runekeepers (Stun lock super crit, and actually they both do that to me =P). After the update I was able to take down a Loremaster. On Dwarrodelf. With a Rank 1 Warleader. RANK 1. I consider Warleaders more powerful solo then they've been since I first started playing one, but I do remember that those early ranks are still like slogging around Mordor as freepbait. Hence the Trait change suggestion.

I don't want to godmode, but I do want more tools to do the job I already can do. And do it more effectively. Not a tool that does the job for me (Power of Fear, what Rank 3 wouldn't be able to kill an average LM or Hunter with this? Seriously!). It's the degree of change that I disagree with, not the intent (for the most part).

Therefore, I submit that we simply won't see eye to eye on this one and must, respectfully, agree to disagree and not let this degenerate into an argument.

[Arathain.o.]

I really like most of these changes. They are a definite step in the right direction. I only see a few things wrong/missing.

First, Purge needs more of an upgrade than that. If it is going to cost the healer to sacrifice morale and power AND be on a long cooldown, it needs to provide a longer immunity than a few seconds. Anywhere from 10s-15s sounds more reasonable.

Second, WL's still need some form of CC. Even if it is short. I propose a 5s fear. You can work it in however you like.

Other than that, all seems very well.

[Slyn]

I think that power of fear is very creative and look forward to see more things in the game like that. Especially for creep side things like that are really cool.

However, I'd like to see a minimum damage of the crit. For example it must hit for say 750 to allow the use of the skill..

[Arathain.o.]

I think that power of fear is very creative and look forward to see more things in the game like that. Especially for creep side things like that are really cool.

However, I'd like to see a minimum damage of the crit. For example it must hit for say 750 to allow the use of the skill..

The problem with a minimum damage gate is that it unbalances chances to fear opponents based on class. For example, Guardian Shadow Mitigation is insanely higher than a Minstrels. Because of this, your shout might not, if ever, crit for 750 on a geared Guardian.

[AceDwarf]

Its good to know that creeps are getting an upgrade. Below is the main issue I have with the WL class :

It is very easy to take a WL out of a fight, especially if there is only one WL in the group. Hunters, minstrels and wardens can keep a WL chain feared making the WL a spectator to most fights ( and there are no shortage of hunters and the fear pot has a 2 min cd ). Burglars and LMs can keep a WL chain mezzed. Any melee freep - burglar, champion, warden or guard can easily knockback WL inductions making it near impossible to heal - this is especially true once the 75% induction multiplier is added by a burglar addle. For a class that is almost completely group dependent to rank and survive, it should not be this easy to be taken out of the fight

Solution - Commander's stance should provide shorter inductions and make heals harder to knockback. A class that has no cc should be able to make itself cc immune. Purge is a near useless skill. Replace it with a skill similar to loremaster's SOP:R. While none of these will address the chain fear issue, it will reduce the number of ways a WL can be taken out of a fight.


I do not mind WL having no cc. It isn't designed to be a solo class and the lack of cc makes the WL depend on other classes for kills. But please bear in mind that it is a huge disadvantage compared to every other class - freep or creep. This class will never get a solo kill if the freep decides to run away from the fight. That being the case, the WL should be powerful in a group. Providing cc immunity for the group and the ability to heal while taking fire will provide this balance.

The 20 sec cd for shouts ( 10 sec with the suggested changes ) is high considering the amount of dmg it does and the number of shout skills available. It would be good to have one more single target shout that does similar dmg ( replace one of the melee skills - melee skill that does 250 common dmg isnt worth using ). However this is a 'good to have' rather than a necessary change.

IIRC, the WL has 3 heal skills ( one available only at higher ranks ). This leaves a significant gap in the healing rotation ( especially considering the freep dps these days ) . A filler heal skill with low healing output and low power cost would be nice to have.

[Fusillade]

Commander's stance should provide shorter inductions and make heals harder to knockback. A class that has no cc should be able to make itself cc immune. Purge is a near useless skill. Replace it with a skill similar to loremaster's SOP:R. While none of these will address the chain fear issue, it will reduce the number of ways a WL can be taken out of a fight.

Well said. However, I'd settle for the WL to be able to Snap himself and fear immunity. Kind of makes sense, IME. Have you seen these guys? The idea that a 3-foot hobbit with a drum could send a WL running in fear is a bit silly.

[Thorandril]

A block reactive stun would go a long way to assist healing. 3-4s duration, 30s-1m cd.
Getting 1 free heal every so often doesn't really fix the problem (considering it could be quitters never win maybe even a bit strong). The inductions are too hard or impossible to get off.

[Loth_Don]

I disagree with the idea of a melee stun. I too once liked the idea- it certainly fits the appearance of the warleader, especially when we think of him as a tank. With a guardian being my 1st freep, I liked the reactive block idea. But fracture currently functions as an interrupt, and as a tank that is what I want more than melee cc because of the tremendous amount of CC immunity(sop:r, pots, insignias and just DR). As a soloer or small group healer, the kind of cc that would be most helpful would be a limited use ranged ability, not a melee attack.

I agree that call the shadow as an auto crit is over the top and not a perfect fit. Power of fear is a mechanic that could really help the warleader, but I think 0 induction works and any reduction on power cost would be over the top. While I appreciate the idea of commanders stance reducing inductions, I think we have to be careful how we modify warleaders so that certain skills don't become so pivotal that advancement and traiting becomes irrelevant.

I think Call the shadow should work more like a oathbreakers/blade of elendil hybrid- a debuff is applied to the target and whenever a shadow dmg attack is applied, there is a 50% chance of call the shadow damage over time effect applying. And instead of having enhanced black speech, something that might be too powerful with the brawlers stance changes, have enhanced call the shadow that fears/snares the target for 4 seconds. That way the cd is about right for the warleader to have some limited cc tied into a support ability.

[Elora]

Initial thoughts. I appreciate that the class is being looked at again on the DPS side, but we can't neglect the healing side.

Stick 1 melee freep (or ranged to a lesser degree) on a warleader and it's a near shutdown on healing capability for anything besides bubble and single target heal. If we stick one creep, any class, on a minstrel/captain/runekeeper, it's definitely not the same shutdown.

I propose that the WL purge be rebuilt to a stance that decreases the inductions for healing (say by 25%) on self and also provides resistance against CC (increase resistance by 10% (or reduces the effect duration by 25%)) for the group. That way we have an option when getting beat on to move away from commander stance (decreasing our healing output in terms of heals per skill, also the threat reduction which is massive), and going to a hardier, less effective healing, more power intensive (due to having to put out more healing), but better for when 'tanking' a freep attacking you. Yet not making them invincible healing machines.

Even with your changes I would never slot purge. There's just so much freep CC that can be tossed around that the cost and cooldown is just too great to make me want to break a group of freep's mezzes fears. That's what pots are for and the occasional snaps. A 1 time per battle (usual battles are under 5 minutes) aoe snap isn't worth much when we get aoe'd again with another CC shortly thereafter.

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DPS stance I appreciate your changes and don't think they are too out of wack. If we can get purge to be changed per my suggestion above, I do not feel that we need a CC. Inherently the WL is a group orientated class and CC is what other creeps need to provide. Having a skill rotation that's worth it (besides me flipping to brawler, firing all my skills.. then either sitting around or flipping back to commander for the next 12 seconds or so) makes the WL a viable class to solo with to a better degree.

Again, I appreciate that our classes are being looked at. Good luck on the balance of creep vs freep as it's single target DPS vs AoE DPS, inherently inbalanced as you transition from 1-1, to 6-6, to 24-24.

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In other news, please relook at the Uruk heal and have it hit self at least and 5 other creeps. It is amazingly painful to see how few times you actually heal yourself with it.

What he said. By far for me the biggest frustration for me on my WL is how very easily my heal inductions are interrupted by any and all freep attacks, particularly the group heal. Against something like a burglar I have very little chance of getting even one heal off. A slow or CC of some kind against that type of swift attack would at least give me a chance of living beyond 20 seconds! :P