So Orion.. Wardens?

[qannadi]

Orion has started previewing the updates to the Champion class.. and I would REALLY love to hear the same sort of initial "here's what we're thinking and our philosophy" for Wa(r)den updates. Please Orion? With cookys?

[Hudson7]

agreed, I'm hoping for something similar for our stances that will help whatever they decide are our actual roles. Primary is tanking, but secondary is what? Especially when you look at some of our armor set bonus rewards it can be a tad confusing.

[Lithium777]

Warden's are being removed from the game with Isengard.


Seriously though I'm looking forward to it as well, and all the other classes.

[Murtanion]

WTB:

-New, decent shield, preferably instance drop
-Better yellow line
-More definition on specific roles
-Less useless legacies

[geoboy]

Even the hunters are getting a third update before we get one.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5371395 #post5371395

Seems the wardens and guards in LoTRO are the last to get picked again. /sigh

[lf2536]

quick! flood Turbine headquarters with cookies for Orion!

on a more serious note though, I have confidence in Orion, so far things that I know he's been in charge of have turned out nicely, I'm happy Orion is handling Wardens, unlike that shifty Graalx ;-)

[striverg]

Even the hunters are getting a third update before we get one.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5371395 #post5371395

Seems the wardens and guards in LoTRO are the last to get picked again. /sigh

wow, so hunters are getting 2 updates before some classes get one? win.

[Morcanden]

Even the hunters are getting a third update before we get one.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5371395 #post5371395

Seems the wardens and guards in LoTRO are the last to get picked again. /sigh

Maybe our updates are so stupendously large that they've been working on them for YEARS and are expecting to finish just in time for Isengard (yeah right). However, part of me thinks that they have to do them last for threat balancing issues, which means that as long as other classes are getting updates, we are constantly out of sync, and will play catch-up at the end of each and every long, long cycle (which totally sucks).

It's also possible that balancing threat is very tedious, and the devs just procrastinate, I guess.

[lf2536]

wow, so hunters are getting 2 updates before some classes get one? win.

well, 3 if you want to be specific, they did get those extra few skills way back with the F2P launch or with the Yule festival.

[Paestylandir]

Wait a minute... Theyre getting rid of the wardens? What happens to the people that payed for them? And why are they getting rid of them?

[Rouan]

Wait a minute... Theyre getting rid of the wardens? What happens to the people that payed for them? And why are they getting rid of them?

*insert Picard facepalm here*

He was joking....

[ANewMachine]

Even the hunters are getting a third update before we get one.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=5371395 #post5371395

Seems the wardens and guards in LoTRO are the last to get picked again. /sigh

That link is dead. Still, if this is true, *sigh*. I guess DPS and support classes are easy, and tanks are hard? It shouldn't be that hard to balance. Make us hard to get rid of and annoying. If you need a model, just look at any of the complaint threads on these boards.

[Murtanion]

Maybe our updates are so stupendously large that they've been working on them for YEARS and are expecting to finish just in time for Isengard (yeah right). However, part of me thinks that they have to do them last for threat balancing issues, which means that as long as other classes are getting updates, we are constantly out of sync, and will play catch-up at the end of each and every long, long cycle (which totally sucks).

It's also possible that balancing threat is very tedious, and the devs just procrastinate, I guess.

I have to hope something along these lines. It must be rather hard to come up with new gambits and threat mechanics that do not push the Warden over the brink of Overpowered, or without making us completely useless. As the primary generators of real threat I really hope that they thoroughly test any new Warden gambits/mechanics before it hits bullroarer, much less live.

And please, give us some real tanking legacies worth using.

[lf2536]

I was thinking about it yesterday and it comes to me that some of these updates have more to do with RoI and what's going to happen to classes going forward from 65 to 75, it just seems really unlikely to me that Minstrels, Burgs, LMs, Hunters, RKs and Captains are getting another revamp so soon after their recent updates. I forsee an update for Chumps, Wardens and Guards for update 4 and more work for all classes for RoI.

[LagunaD]

Insert appropriate caveats (we only have very vague hints from Orion, and the details will matter), but I find the Orion's preview of Champion changes a bit disconcerting.

It sounds like Fervour is possibly getting a small damage buff, no additional penalties, and (apparently) a fundamental change (i.e. decrease) to its threat dynamics. So fervour Champs would seem to be getting better at their primary role. All well and good, although Champs are already one of the strongest classes in the game.

The eyebrow-raising part is that Champ tanking and Glory (their secondary role) are apparently getting a significant buff. Not just a buff in capability, but also (and perhaps just as important) a new play-style such that Champs will actually want to do it. They will tank with a 2H weapon, (according to Orion) be able to deal massive damage while doing so, and have added survival capabilities. They already have Rising Ire, the most powerful threat skill in the game.

We don't know the details of course, but it seems clear from Orion's blog that Champs will remain top-tier DPS in their primary role (as they should), while becoming significantly better and higher-DPS tanks in their secondary role as well.

Meanwhile, Wardens have no secondary role worth mentioning, and a number of weaknesses as tanks vis-a-vis Guardians (who will also, presumably, be getting some love in the update).

Not to be alarmist (yet), but I don't think we need even more competition in our primary (and only) role.



Ah, what the heck. Let's be alarmist:

Guardian tanks (primary role): Ultimate survivability, superior threat skills, average damage

Champ tanks (secondary role): "Viable" survivability, superior threat skills, ultimate damage

Warden tanks (only role): Average survivability, mediocre threat skills, mediocre damage?

[striverg]

Insert appropriate caveats (we only have very vague hints from Orion, and the details will matter), but I find the Orion's preview of Champion changes a bit disconcerting.

It sounds like Fervour is possibly getting a small damage buff, no additional penalties, and (apparently) a fundamental change (i.e. decrease) to its threat dynamics. So fervour Champs would seem to be getting better at their primary role. All well and good, although Champs are already one of the strongest classes in the game.

The eyebrow-raising part is that Champ tanking and Glory (their secondary role) are apparently getting a significant buff. Not just a buff in capability, but also (and perhaps just as important) a new play-style such that Champs will actually want to do it. They will tank with a 2H weapon, (according to Orion) be able to deal massive damage while doing so, and have added survival capabilities. They already have Rising Ire, the most powerful threat skill in the game.

We don't know the details of course, but it seems clear from Orion's blog that Champs will remain top-tier DPS in their primary role (as they should), while becoming significantly better and higher-DPS tanks in their secondary role as well.

Meanwhile, Wardens have no secondary role worth mentioning, and a number of weaknesses as tanks vis-a-vis Guardians (who will also, presumably, be getting some love in the update).

Not to be alarmist (yet), but I don't think we need even more competition in our primary (and only) role.



Ah, what the heck. Let's be alarmist:

Guardian tanks (primary role): Ultimate survivability, superior threat skills, average damage

Champ tanks (secondary role): "Viable" survivability, superior threat skills, ultimate damage

Warden tanks (only role): Average survivability, mediocre threat skills, mediocre damage?

someone had to post it.

[ANewMachine]

Well, nerfing Fervour threat is good, since Fervour doesn't make you squishy enough to merit being afraid of pulling aggro anyway. And I wouldn't mind Glory being made a proper tanking stance - but it needs to require heavy Blue-line investment, which probably means an overhaul of the Legendary and significant other changes (especially if, as Orion has said, it's going to be a shield-less tanking line - bye, Heavy Shield Use and At the Ready).

[Aggie08]

Yes... all I want is a clear (and useful in a group/raid setting) secondary role.

[BoardGamer]

Yes... all I want is a clear (and useful in a group/raid setting) secondary role.

Seconded!

Rapacious

PS I wouldn't mind a Javelin threat skill or a non-gambit interupt either, but I will settle for the above.

[ANewMachine]

I dunno that we'll ever get a raid-viable secondary role, and I don't know that this is a bad thing. Minstrels have no raid-viable secondary role, nor do LMs. I don't think most groups would consider GRD DPS raid-viable, either, unless it's an exceptionally well-geared Guard. Some other classes have no really clear primary role (Captains, Burgs) and thus don't really have a straight secondary role that's viable in a raid, either. What we need, though, is to be viable as DPS *and* tanks in 6-mans, and competitive with Guardians in raids as tanks.

[striverg]

I dunno that we'll ever get a raid-viable secondary role, and I don't know that this is a bad thing. Minstrels have no raid-viable secondary role, nor do LMs. I don't think most groups would consider GRD DPS raid-viable, either, unless it's an exceptionally well-geared Guard. Some other classes have no really clear primary role (Captains, Burgs) and thus don't really have a straight secondary role that's viable in a raid, either. What we need, though, is to be viable as DPS *and* tanks in 6-mans, and competitive with Guardians in raids as tanks.

minstrel secondary: buffs (20% ballad of war=win)
lore-master: dps (it's meh, but it helps to have that kind of aoe tied to a class with debuffs)
guards: open up more FMs while going dps for the most part
captain primary: buffs (was it really that hard to see?)
burg primary: debuffs/cc (secondary is dps)

I'm curious as to why you think a class in the game should just "deal with" not being the best at something in raids.

[ANewMachine]

Well, I guess I meant more an "off-role" that's viable. Yes, Minnies have buffs, but you bring them as healers. You don't bring a Minstrel in place of a Cappy for buffs. That 20% melee damage will probably be outweighed by the Captain's +10% all damage, if you bring RK or Hunter DPS instead of just stacking Champs. A min's off-role is burst DPS, but that's not useful in a raid. You're right about Captains having buffs as a primary role, but I disagree re: Burgs, because Burgs have worse CC and worse debuffs than LMs - compare Disable with Fire-Lore, and the only thing Disable wins on in CD, which it needs since it's one-target. They're better as force-multipliers, but even there a single Burg will get get beaten by a Captain.

LOTRO isn't really balanced around having one class be the "best" at something, but rather around multi-role classes that can fill in for each other. Just look at their push to give every class an interrupt skill for evidence of this. Really the only classes that are the "best" at something are Guardians as tanks, Cappies for buffs, and Champs as AoE DPS. LM CC is rivaled by a properly-traited Hunter. Hunters and RKs are rivaled for ST DPS by each other and Champs. Even a Guardian is only a clearly better than than the Warden because of fight mechanics and an aggro-recovery tool.

[esdumby]

minstrel secondary: buffs (20% ballad of war=win)
lore-master: dps (it's meh, but it helps to have that kind of aoe tied to a class with debuffs)
guards: open up more FMs while going dps for the most part
captain primary: buffs (was it really that hard to see?)
burg primary: debuffs/cc (secondary is dps)

I'm curious as to why you think a class in the game should just "deal with" not being the best at something in raids.

Those arnt secondary roles. Minstrels can heal and buff at the same time, i say "can" but i really should say Must/Should/Will.
Loremaster have marginal dps but can trait for decent aoe damage. (trait). i.e. secondary role.
Guards- thats not a secondary role, its just part of their main one. Secondary role would be full dps and it's not viable the way i see it.
Burg - they dps and debuff at the same time, again not a secondary role.

Many classes do not have a viable/useful full secondary role. By the logic posted above, wardens secondary role would be an aoe heal, or a corruption spammer or a interrupter; all of which a warden is capable of doing (maybe not to their full capacity) while tanking.

The only roles i see being done in a fellowship/raid are
Debuffer
Dps
Tank
Heal
Buffer

All classes have at least 2 of those built into their class. A full secondary role for a minstrel for example would be a full sustainable (comparable) Dps/buffer class rather than a Heal/buffer.

Burgs already have Debuffer/Dps. They also can tank well enough to be considered as an off tank, the class is fully developed. Minstrels arnt only healing, they are continuously buffing the fellowship. tanks are tanking, adding in a marginal amount of dps but champ/guard/(even warden) can retrait to do something more effective if its tank or dpsing.

However, i would never call guard dps a viable secondary role, its not even close to what their melee counterparts can put up (champions). Dps is all about comparison. Wardens can trait for dps but again, they do not do well against their counterparts (hunter/champion). The same goes for hunter/champion. A hunter can trait to be marginally good at CC, not as effective as an lm or burg but the job can be done. Champion can already tank in fervor but if they want to trait tanking, their morale/defenses are nearing the guards but still not there, i.e. not a viable secondary role. They might as well tough it out in fervor.

I could go on to explain different classes but i believe the point is clear enough. Each class could be given a skill that would make them sort of a secondary role but in the end, if you want dps you bring a dps class etc. Three main things in a fellowship are Healing, Tanking, and Dpsing. The support classes, burg/lm/captain bring a mixture of all three of those components along with some debuff/buffing mechanics but are more effective when you have multiple support classes. To give someone a full viable, completely equal secondary role would be taking away the dps/heal/tank's role in the fellowship. Each class has parts of each role built in but they do 1 the best.

(i do see your point as to having 2 tanks, one cannot be the best and i believe guardian>warden for many reasons. I understand the thread isnt about that but when raids only need 1 tank, then it becomes a problem. The other roles deal with it, debuffing, healing, dps but in those positions you will have multiple classes in raid situations so what class is better at their specific role doesnt matter much but, you will usually just have 1 tank unless the fight requires(easier) with 2 tanks. If you have 2 tanks, then i either assume you "need" off tanking or need or are dealing with agro switching, wardens do not have the viable skills to take agro immediately so that is another problem the class faces.)

Needless to say, i am wondering myself about the future of the warden class.

[jeedai]

I dunno that we'll ever get a raid-viable secondary role, and I don't know that this is a bad thing. Minstrels have no raid-viable secondary role, nor do LMs. I don't think most groups would consider GRD DPS raid-viable, either, unless it's an exceptionally well-geared Guard. Some other classes have no really clear primary role (Captains, Burgs) and thus don't really have a straight secondary role that's viable in a raid, either. What we need, though, is to be viable as DPS *and* tanks in 6-mans, and competitive with Guardians in raids as tanks.

Loremasters do not need a secondary role because they have no competition for any of their primary roles. They are the only class any of the following: wound/disease curing, ranged/tactical damage debuffs, crit debuffs, heavy power management, and multi-target CC (until Burgs get the OD set). All this warrants them a place in groups/raids almost regardless of the fight.

Minstrels do not need a secondary role since they have a secure position in their primary. The only class with competitive healing capabilities are Runekeepers who provide far less damage while healing. Regardless, the classes work well together, and most raids contain at least one Minstrel.

Compare those to the Warden whose viability as a tank has been hotly debated since their launch. While the consensus is that Wardens are capable of tanking anything in the game, most groups (in my experience) would prefer a Guardian. Without a secondary role, there is much less incentive to invite a Warden than the other classes without one.

[striverg]

Champion can already tank in fervor but if they want to trait tanking, their morale/defenses are nearing the guards but still not there, i.e. not a viable secondary role. They might as well tough it out in fervor.

I understood you until here. What you're saying here is that champ is not viable as a tank because he can't tank as well or better than a guard? that sounds more like something that would be a main roll not a secondary.

But based on the other stuff you said, a class should either be the best at their roll or have something else unique they can do while performing their primary function. I don't see warden having either really, at least not efficiently(e.g. it's not possible to spam corruption removal/interrupts AND be able to hold aggro AND heal the group. meaning it's impossible for us to perform all of our possible functions at once unlike a minstrel that can pretty much buff and heal without missing a beat[no pun intended])