An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[Sirandilas]

Shot from the hip!

With explosive bolt tips

[harkamsu]

Jesus Christ. I don't want to be a melee hunter. What are these guys thinking? If I wanted to melee I'd roll a champ or guardian. If I want to shoot, I play hunter. I can only imagine how ruined huntsman traitline is going to be. Huntsman line is fine as is. Improved Fleetness gave a viable option compared to Bowmaster line.

Looks more and more like we're gonna become a jack of all trades except we'll suck at every trade.

/do not want!

[Daynab]

So.... the CC trait line with less CC,
The solo DPS with less DPS,
The speed-focus line with less ranged action?
Yeah ok.

[CWood]

This is going to be rich...

[drexele]

honestly if theyre gonna change any thing maybe a trait that ups aglie rejoinder heal, or even a light armor shield u can use to replace one wep? (this is a maybe it could be added as a trait to equip and be under tof but would make daze blow not useable)
and hunters are generaly not cc unless traited that way (tof duh) so y nerf that?

and will hunts get a port to an isen city?

lastly maybe they were planning on upping sote becouse i have low power to begin with and if i run out i go use it and it doesnt even go half way plus they had a poor response to it

[Tamiya]

The only fix hunters need now is SotE morale regen. It doesn't work very well because of the way ICMR ticks.

Please don't fix anything else that isn't broken...

...unless it's double-crossbow for Huntsman, then yes go ahead please.


But seriously, I play hunter because I don't want to go into melee, and it's probably the same for all other hunter players, so don't change that.

[Aliendha]

I feel the same as most of the people on this thread. You just fixed the hunter and made all 3 traitlines fun and balanced and now you overhaul everything again. We rolled a hunter to be a ranged dps class. It's fine that we have some skill which require us to go melee (dazing blow for example) but if you are making a melee line which will most certainly be weaker than all other melee classes I'd say no to it.

If it is possible you could try to combine ToF with melee. Use the traps to get some serious dot damage in but don't destroy the huntsman line which I love the most at the moment.

[ZombieJesus]

Guys, I think this is a rare opportunity to voice our issues with the hunter class in a thread the dev is clearly reading. While I agree with the general consensus that the proposed changes to our trait lines would be a poor move (sorry ZC, what you're suggesting would be far too drastic a play style change) to simply say 'don't change us, we're fine' seems somewhat short sighted. I would encourage you to list even your small grievances with the class and hope they will be addressed.

Here are some of my own:

SoTe's Morale regen: both the 3 peice Huntsman line bonus, and the Major meele legacy. These are now essentially worthless due to the very short duration of the ability, these need to be replaced or changed.

Focus/Induction Crit legacies: These need to be a single legacy, the math has been done on them and the increase to overall DPS is far too low to justify them being 2 separate legacies.

Beneath Notice/Beneath Care: This ability needs to have a direct aggro dump component to it and to have the trait Stealthy Shot changed to something entirely else. It's probably our worst trait currently.

Heart of the Bard: This trait needs to be changed due to the now much lower CD of HS.

Trapper of Foes Line: I understand the rationale of the reduced DPS for CC, however what Turbine seems to have failed to understand is that none of the traits in this line directly increase our DPS, meaning to trait deep in ToF we're giving up both our DPS traits and the bonuses of the other 2 lines. This is MORE than enough of a hit to DPS, there should be NO direct penalty to ranged DPS from speccing this line. I'd also like to see the root moved from Pen. Shot, as this one of our highest DPS moves. As well, the 2 piece bonus of this line should likely be updated, I'm all for higher power regen, but it's a pretty small amount.

Endurance Stance: I simply do not go into this stance anymore. I am able to maintain my aggro and power in Precision too easily to even consider it. I'd like to see the current bonuses from it stay the same, but have something extra added to make it more enticing. Perhaps some sort of bonus to CC skills (duration, resist chance, etc). This would fit in line with the 3 trait lines and 3 stances, one for each.

Heightened Senses and Camouflage: I don't feel we should have traits/skills whose only real use by players is for the Moors. Heightened Senses should probably be inherent to Hunters, stop making us change this one trait every time we leave/enter the Moors. Same with Camouflage, there's very few PVE uses for this. I'd like to see bonus damage to shots fired from Camouflage, this would give it some great use in pulling/starts of fights, and give it synergy with skills such as Heartseeker and Swift Bow

Scourging Blow and Unlegacied Agile Rejoiner: I think these need to be changed to something else, I can't possibly justify working these into my rotation over say another QS or Pen shot. We're not a meele class and I don't want us to be. I use Blindside for the focus, low cut for the slow, and SS for the defense buff, the damage component never even factors into my brain.

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent.

Overall I think the idea of the 3 lines is great, Burst DPS, Sustained DPS, CC, and hope they stay that way. I think the issues with people not speccing ToF is both that we have to sacrifice too much to spec it and that there's not a huge amount of scenarios in the game where CC is direly needed. There's not often 6 mans desperately seeking CC, but if this role was in demand then people would certain be willing to seek and accept ToF Hunters as well as LMs and Burgs.

[Ozthorn]

I like having CC on my Trapper build. It lets me work in areas where single pulls aren't possible and gives me more group options.

[ScrappyTheGreat]

The only reason to get into melee range is the Blindside focus pips. My hope for 4 traited Huntsman line: each melee skill gives +1 focus. I can't think of any other way to make more melee a "good thing."

I'm willing to listen, ZC, but I've got my mouse hovering over Desperate Flight...
I have a lowbie RK i still need to lvl up, ya know.

[Tinluen]

Okay first.... NO... second ...DON"T ... third... PLEASE!


Each line can be useful, so we will throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of doing a lilttle tweaking... less is more. I said it before we do not need drastic changes. They create unbalance and that is not good. Small changes to the things that need changing.

Heightened Senses should be innate period by level 55 I should be able to track invisible mobs. I am a hunter after all.

Not sure where you are going with strength stance, and frankly I am more than a bit concerned.

Huntsman is fine as is, really don't touch it or else.

TOF is good, but can be better. Look why do I need a power buff if I am using CC... logic here people. That power buff is needed where I am putting wood down the range, not where I am slowing things down and keeping a lid on extra adds. Move group poison cure to 2 deep, and then give us something nifty to replace the poison removal like a power bleed to our ROT or bards arrow. That way I am not only holding it down, but making it weaker while I do it. That skill alone would make us more group worthy as CCers. I don't want to be a LM, I want to bring something unique to the table by changing just a few things to this line you could really tempt some hunters to slot it much more often than it is being used now.

You want to play with hunters and melee, great, use endurance stance. It is a perfect fit. You are sacrificing ranged damage to stay low on the threat radar... doesn't that dovetail nicely with a hunter wading in with two weapons flashing in the midday sun? Let it raise our melee +25%, cut cooldown melee skills by 25%, and give us a 25% armour boost. You can still do damage with your ranged attacks at a cost of -15% damage,you will get no bonuses, but you will still be able to get some arrows off at close range. This is where a hunter could take advantage of evades, and parry bonuses as well, just food for thought. Even with a 25% addition of armor we wouldn't be true tanks, no blocks, but by buffing the evade/parry end of the formula we would be an interesting hybird that would be a pretty nice off tank option. We couldn't take the big shots from the bosses, but we could certainly maintain the interests of the secondaries.

Oh yeah... can we get a trident and net? The last suggestion is just me, I would love to see the animation of that. See that is ridiculous.... but so is using wholesale changes after moving hunters four steps in the right direction as of last overhaul.

Enhance our desirablity, tease us down one line or the other. Make the choices difficult, but also functional. That is how you breed diversity in the hunter camp, so that we are not all blow ???? up DPS bursters, machine gunning long haulers, or the poor man's lm. Include the endurance stance suggestion and you give hunters 4 viable options to morph into, not cookie cutters all having the same traits with the same LIs and fitting only one small cog space in the machine.


Tydalmir

P.S. I really do like the power drain suggestion 4 deep into TOF, so can you please at least think about that one?

[anwar]

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Go ahead...use us, abuse us, but please don't try to force us into too much melee

...and remember folks like hunters and ranger-types because of bow first...then cool tricks...like pulling abilities, trapping, slowing, snaring, tracking, harmony, camo, ports.

....now if only we could find, tame, train unique pets...but that won't happen at this late date.

[SaintBass]

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Don't need any changes to melee skills, don't want any changes to melee skills, most people barely use them as it is. Unless of course you add some tasty debuffs...

I think that is part of the point. When we are in melee, it never crosses anyone's mind to use melee skills for anything other than the unique buffs or debuffs--parry bonus, interrupt, focus, slow, daze etc.-- For some of us, the idea of a ranged/melee hybrid has always stuck in our heads as something that we might want, but was never viable... even though there have been several attempts at it over the years. Even if it diminishes what we look at as Focus Burn (something that was already diminished with MoM), I welcome a fresh look and real options for different builds.

Oh lord, this is not gonna be good...Bowmaster is our dps line, why would it not be tied to Strength stance...
Bow and blade warrior, does this means they adding that trait back?

Because to get the damage related trait set bonuses from the bowmaster traits, you have to be in S:S. This way you can actually pick a stance for the task at hand and choose your traits for actual functionality, like Damage Dealing.... feeling less gimped in S:E is a good thing for groups and for Hunters.


------------------------

Overall, I think that these changes sound like they can lead to more options, not less... which I always like. I would very much like to see the details, but generally, anything that makes the class more dynamic and deep is something I will latch onto.

[Lycaunoss]

My one and only post till there's more information. Gonna point out a couple of things since ZC you are pilfering the way Graalx2 is running his posts I'm going to point out that in his he's stepping in occasionally and offering up little bits at the least to quiet down any of the overreacting. I know that's not the way you roll but it's food for thought.

Now also stealing from Graalx2's post one of the reasons they are dropping shields from champs is because a champ with a shield is like an inferior guard. So if Huntsman is changed to be more melee oriented then isn't that sort of like being inferior champs? Please elaborate on what you mean by true bow and blade warrior.

I guess since our update most hunters think we are in a pretty good place so this seems odd to us to be discussing big changes again.

[Feybobiam]

No disrespect at all, but this sounds wrong and backwards.

Hunters are absolutely beautiful right now. Please don't change Hunters jut to change Hunters. They're absolutely fine.

Look into Guardians and Wardens, they're going to need some loving. Let Hunters enjoy their changes for now. Trapper is actually darn good and quite useful, especially in OD, Bowmaster was balanced well and Huntsman is killer for DPS. Why stress Melee?

Please reconsider.

[Macroscian]

Can we have dual wield crossbows AND shields??

You get to dual wield angry dwarf RKs. PEW PEW

Advance panic may be OK but the actual feedback when tried out could wait for later. When...tried out.

(EDIT

...

Ye gods man - as a rule, demotivational-stuff-found-on-the-internets isn't part of this forum.)

[drexele]

if you ignore all of our yelling and pleading against becoming meele then at least do this

give us a very dmging skill that shoots an arrow with a rope atatched into the enemy then u pull rope pulling them into ur waiting swords, and u could make this like say a 30 yrd distance rather than 40 if u make it do enough dmg, this would be good for up against archers and it would look sooo cool

i also agree that if u make huntsman (i have this traited and like it the way it is) a more meele based it will make them a poor champ after all champs are supposed to be the meele dps

[cold_realms]

So this is for all the people complaining about the possible huntsman changes.

The statement is - Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

As a hunter who runs is usually doing a duo or three man WITHOUT a tank many times I am the tank. T2 Skirms (Duoing a three man), NCF, Stoneheight, what have you. I find myself, necessarily, always in melee range with multiple mobs. This is the situation that the changes will likely benefit. Does that mean that huntsman will only be for that? NO! It will just mean that I can further refine my traits for that role.

Melee traits could add buffs, place debuffs on mobs, more speed increases or induction knockback reductions, anything that would help in a melee situation. Win Freaking Win to me.

If I am in a larger group I can change, and really who the hell can't solo every solo / duo encounter without falling back on the UB3R L33T dps of S:S???? (BTW I out DPS and out Threat S:S hunters with my eyes closed....)

[Lithium777]

Strong Draw: What hunter WOULDN'T trait this? And there in lies the problem, this is such an essential trait, every last hunter is gonna get it, and as such we now only have 6 class trait slots instead of 7. Make the bonus of this inherent

Just because something is really good doesn't mean it should be a passive buff, tbh it should probably be the opposite. A trait. Like it is now. If you gave every class every trait that was super awesome as a passive it would completely negate the need for traits.

However, I agree with you 100% on the ToF's line. Loosing the traits for it is enough penalty as is, we don't need - ranged damage %s on top of this.

As a hunter who runs is usually doing a duo or three man WITHOUT a tank many times I am the tank. T2 Skirms (Duoing a three man), NCF, Stoneheight, what have you. I find myself, necessarily, always in melee range with multiple mobs. This is the situation that the changes will likely benefit. Does that mean that huntsman will only be for that? NO! It will just mean that I can further refine my traits for that role.

So you want a tanking line....? This makes this an even worse change if it is what your describing. Even when I'm tanking a mob in melee range I only occasionally buff my parry rating with the melee skill, and that is the only useful melee skill besides our slow. if you're using melee skills you arn't gonna hold agro anyway.

[FyreBrand]

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

I'm probably in the minority here, especially because I'm in love with the DDO ranger, but knowing what you've accomplished with other classes I'm very interested in hearing what you have in mind.

I hope you'll be able to post some tidbits or thoughts on your general ideas soon.

@Beovar - you know I love your posts!

[Hirandiel]

NO MELEE!!!!!!! JUST NO!


For realz, why change the trait lines again? I think they are fine as is.

[bastiat1]

Come on guys- seriously- I think they are just punking us. There is no way they thought these were good ideas. I mean, with comments 19:1 in fierce opposition, there is no way they couldn't have easily expected this reaction. I'll bet anyone a gold that Ashton Kutcher is just doing an internship. He's probably doing research for a ?????? new gaming movie or something.

[EarMuffs]

I think it will be mistake to make any changes so soon after the last update. Wait at least another year.

Nirion Rank 9 Hunter
Eoen Rank 6 Guard

[SaintBass]

Come on guys- seriously- I think they are just punking us. There is no way they thought these were good ideas. I mean, with comments 19:1 in fierce opposition, there is no way they couldn't have easily expected this reaction. I'll bet anyone a gold that Ashton Kutcher is just doing an internship. He's probably doing research for a ?????? new gaming movie or something.

I don't know where you are getting 19:1 fierce opposition... I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

[Lithium777]

I've seen some skepticism, patience and a few adamant objections... but I am not seeing the clear consensus against such changes when a quick search would show that these ideas have come primarily from this forum and its users.

i think the main problem, and this is my opinion too, is that they JUST revamped the trait lines. If he wanted to do more he should have done it with the hunter update or postponed the hunter update until he COULD get it all done... the underlying issue is we just got a complete *and good* revamp. What is the point in changing it AGAIN. That is the stupid part, what isengard needs to do to the 6 classes who received an udpate is add new skills, and add new traits into the lines...but not rework the lines again. Also Isengard needs to add 5 set bonuses to match the burgs now. And maybe even add 6 and 7 set bonuses past slotting the cap stone... What Isengard doesn't need to do is completely revamp traitlines that JUST got revamped. Perfect the changes and tweak them is the most we should see.