Proposed Reaver Revisions

[AngusMcleod]

I'm really hoping the dev put the changes up then said "now lets have a discussion" is because he is REALLY wanting to hear feed back for possible changes.

Having said that I'll start with the sudden strike/charge stun first. While I'm all for reavers getting a stun I am fully against it being delivered by way of ss/charge spam. Can we not just simply get a skill obtained in the upper mid ranks (rank 8 imo) that is similar to champ horn? The way I would have it would be a skill on a cooldown either double or triple what the champ horn cooldown is and also not deal damage to balance against not needing fervour to fire the skill.

Moving on to thrash. This skill currently as far as I'm concerned is broken. More times than not I find when I do choose to use it after a disarm it won't fire due to either disarm missing/bpe'd or potted which intern just wastes a second or two spamming a skill that will not engage. Hardly fitting for a skill that should have made a higher ranked player alittle stronger not potentially weaker.

Now I'm still unclear if the proposed change still requires the target to be disarmed and I hope someone will chime in if they know. If it does still require a target to be disarmed I'm confused with the proposed 15sec cd because disarms cd is 1min. If it does not require disarm which I'm hoping is true I'd say the bleed portion is about right to add some damage as compared to ravage but would prolly say 30sec for the cd.

In closing if the skill is to be as Im hoping which is current base damage + bleed effect and does not require disarm, although I do think the cd should be higher it would be far from game breaking because of a minor bleed effect. I get hit repeatedly throughout a day of pvp by 1k+ freep skills that alot of times stun as well so I find it hard to argue a r13 reaver skill that might hit 1k+ in total with no stun would be OP or gamebreaking.

Other changes I dont feel the need to comment on and would hope the above statements will be looked at fairly.

Gii

[Sezneg]

You are making Thrash absurdly overpowered. I don't care that it is a rank 13 skill, the proposed change is game breaking. The dots are too much.

So HOW much damage are these game breaking DOTs ticking for? Answer? We have no idea! You are calling an effect game-breaking without knowing how much damage it does, how much morale you will have and ANY number of other things.

You're either a crybaby or a psychic.

I don't like the Stun possibility with Charge either but I can live with it. It just seems contrary to the established roles of the Reaver and goes against the entire dynamic of the class. But whatever.

I agree. We should really remove every CC ability from DPS spec classes on freepside in a hotfix.

The Gut Punch change is totally unneeded. The skill is used tons, Ravage-Gunt Punch is every Reaver's best friend. Why are you changing it? Multiple Devastating Strikes is just cruel. Some skills never see the light of day, Gut Punch isn't one of them.

The stated role of this change was to add a "jackpot" mechanic. Don't like DPS classes with a jackpot mechanic? Neither do I! So let's go ahead and delete the entire RK lightning skill/trait line in a hotfix.

The Wrath healing prospect is also insane, for reasons already mentioned in the thread.

Wrath costs 50% of the reaver's morale. The heals will only allow them to recoup part of the cost.

Overall Reaver seems to be going the wrong direction, I'd say. I don't understand this focus on giving high ranked Reavers overwhelming abilities. They are already quite well off, it is the lower ranked Creeps and Skills that need the attention. Why not focus more on Glory in Victory or Jagged Cut or maybe even Blinding Dust? All three are pretty outdated at this point. Dust maybe not so much but its use has certainly diminished over the years. Jagged Cut absolutely needs work.

So basically, based on how reavers are now, they shouldn't get any updates over the next ten levels.

LOL whatever.

[Kelsen]

Wanted to chime in on some of the posts here.

Charge
-I think Orion tried to express that this change as in relation to a similar skill being given to Freepside, but that didn't seem to stick.
-I'm not married to this and the generally discussion is against it, so it is definitely on my list 'Things that might not happen', but keep in mind that this does not mean the Freeps won't get it.

Wrath
-Partially my fault for not providing enough clarification.
-The way the skill will work: Upon getting a defeat event, the Reaver uses Wrath (consuming the defeat event). For the next 30s the Reaver will heal on successful skill attacks. At this point, you ask "what constitutes a successful skill attack?" The answer: The heal will proc ONCE PER SUCCESSFUL SKILL PLAY. Skills with multiple attacks or aoe damage will only proc once, not per hit. This will net the Reaver a total of 3k if he/she can land every potential hit over 30s.
-There are several solutions to coping with Wrath as a Freep: CC the Reaver. Kill the Reaver. Run away from the Reaver, etc...

Trash
-This skill will still require your target to be disarmed. This is one of the main reasons it is getting the potency upgrade. It is not an easy skill to hit with, so when it hits it needs to have impact.

Improved Gut Punch
-I think a lot of Reavers have chimed in on the power cost associated with the Dev Strike rotation. The idea was to give Reavers better means of coping with tactical classes, but I can see revising it. Would any prefer a cooldown reset for Blade Toss (especially considering the revision below)?

Blade Toss
-Adding a Root or Snare was something that I considered when I first implemented this skill and to be honest, I love the idea. It is definitely up for consideration, especially if "Charge" loses the stun.

[Unixbomber]

Wanted to chime in on some of the posts here.

Blade Toss
-Adding a Root or Snare was something that I considered when I first implemented this skill and to be honest, I love the idea. It is definitely up for consideration, especially if "Charge" loses the stun.

This sounds far more useful than a stun, IMO.

[aad0italian]

This sounds far more useful than a stun, IMO.

agreed QFT

[PhantomPunkk]

So HOW much damage are these game breaking DOTs ticking for? Answer? We have no idea! You are calling an effect game-breaking without knowing how much damage it does, how much morale you will have and ANY number of other things.

You're either a crybaby or a psychic.

None of us know what the game will be like post Isen, so how can you possibly say I am wrong? What is the utility of any of this discussion if you actually believe what you are saying? Answer? None. I am not alone in seeing that the skill as described is going to be over the top.

I agree. We should really remove every CC ability from DPS spec classes on freepside in a hotfix.

Reavers have historically been a class independent of CC, hence them getting Charge. A stun would go against the established constraints of the class. I'm not sure what your freep rebuttal is suppose to mean, I'm guessing it doesn't mean a thing. It certainly wasn't relevant.

The stated role of this change was to add a "jackpot" mechanic. Don't like DPS classes with a jackpot mechanic? Neither do I! So let's go ahead and delete the entire RK lightning skill/trait line in a hotfix.

Yes, I'm the one who is whining.

Wrath costs 50% of the reaver's morale. The heals will only allow them to recoup part of the cost.

Prior to the Dev clarification, one could only have assumed multiple hit attacks would have netted multiple heals. That is way more than half the Rever's morale. It's what, 6-8 heals per AA-Ravage-Gut Punch-AA. It is also worth noting the skill was elaborated upon after your post, so your defense of it is certainly revelatory.

So basically, based on how reavers are now, they shouldn't get any updates over the next ten levels.

LOL whatever.

I'd love to know what you think the purpose of these speculation threads are then? Or the reason you've opted to participate? None of us know in entirety or detail the coming changes, it is to gauge people's reactions, I gave mine. I would suggest a less loud and more practical approach to sharing your thoughts. But I'm trying to be constructive, so.

[Thorandril]

Just because you can't be proven wrong, doesn't automatically = right. We're discussing proposals here, and a 3s stun isn't the end of the world. Short duration CC like that is the only kind of CC I don't mind being added to pvp.

[PhantomPunkk]

I honestly just don't like the idea of a Reaver stunning anything, seems contrary to what I perceive to be the class designs. I do like the idea of Blade Toss being a distance equalizer however, and would gladly forgo these reservations given it comes at the price of a disarm.

[Brayden]

I'm always in favor of roots and snares over stuns. Everyone knows being completely unable to do anything isn't fun.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

I really wish I had a really high ranked reaver. I can't imagine how fun they'd be to play, especially if you carried all pots. I think it would be similar to the fun-factor of an RK. Anything you see you'd know you have an excellent chance to slaughter them.


In terms of these changes, I think the charge-stun is not a useful addition to the class. A root added to blade-toss would be useful, or it could re-apply any snare type slow already on the freep.


A 30s worth of Wrath heals sounds incredibly strong, since it sounds like it could regen up to 3000 morale as Kelsan said. I'm not against it, but that's just my view as a hunter. I have a hard enough time with reavers. I cannot imagine them any stronger, but then again, when I play my warg, I cannot believe freepside tactical classes.... just brutal.

[Thorandril]

Yeah, in terms of mechanics it doesn't add anything to the class. As has been said I would much prefer to avoid being kited so much, so blade toss having a short duration snare or root is preferable to both parties I imagine.

As for wrath it could go either way, I don't think the proposal is worded very well.

[mosphet99]

In terms of these changes, I think the charge-stun is not a useful addition to the class.

Yeah being that the stun is tied to charge, and there's really no escaping a charging reaver anyway, it pretty much seems like business as usual, -3 seconds of the targets b/p/e. Doesn't really solve any of the kiting issues reavers currently suffer from though.

[Tinluen]

I agree with the root/slow added to blade toss, it fills a need... the stun doesn't. I still disagree with the wrath.. so shoot me.. 3k is a manheal, or spider heal in which that reaver will be doing at least 4-6k in damage to a target while getting a significant amount of return healing. The reaver is not pushing a button that activates a skill to at least slow down the damage train, but from pushing any button that does damage.

30 seconds is a long time.. 4 times a charge that a reaver can be healing and dealing damage. Now food for thought a warleader bubbles his pet reaver once wrath is activated, that is 16 seconds where nothing can stop the reaver from doing damage and reaping up to 2k in healing, so there goes the idea of killing it or CCing it.. you are left with run away, and that won't be easy anymore with the some of the currently talked about BA spammable slows. Not saying get rid of it, but please look at what you are doing when you are handing a heavy tank this kind of healing senario. The chances of getting another kill are pretty good and that means another 1.3k in healing plus a boost in damage. That is 4.3 k in healing over that time period.... still sounds a bit over the top to me at this point.

Tydalmir

[Thorandril]

It sounds like more of a gambit to me then an automatic superheal. Casting wrath doesn't automatically grant you the ability to land every skill until it expires, and it's gated by defeat response. All proposals considered unless they actually grant us an ability to avoid being kited the same will likely continue to happen making this a useful situational heal at best, not some super restore everyone's making it out to be.

Say you sac 3k morale for it, burglar hits touch and go. Suddenly it's useless, same goes for pledge.... All the tacticals can permaslow you typically so ...that pretty much leaves captains, fervour champs... And cc'd targets.

Wrath was useful in it's old form, it was a good way to get back much needed power just at too steep of a cost. It looks interesting right now but hardly the skill people are making it out to be. Should it got through though.. It'll likely trivialize GiV, which I typically use for the HoT rather than damage currently.

[PhantomPunkk]

What about making Wrath give you a Charge variant that consumes a defeat response? Something to help once you're in the fray. With like a 5min CD? I'd like that a lot.

[AngusMcleod]

Thanks kelsen for making clear some of our questions/concerns we are having here including my question on thrash needing disarm first. Id just ask one favour for that skill since it in fact will still need the target to be disarmed. Can it be greyed out then light up once your target is disarmed and of course greyed out again once it cant be used. Really annoying not knowing whether the skill will fire and wasting time messing up your rotation as currently the skill is always lit up.

As for you leaning against the ss/charge stun since quite a few people including myself have said we don't care for the idea. I really just didnt like the way the stun was being delivered because charging reavers is very common and it seemed like that stun would just be spammed all day long. The other reason is I felt it would be better to have more control over a proposed stun which is where the horn idea came from. Having said all this you eluded to a freep class possibly getting something similar and if they do it will be whether the reaver gets charge/ss or not. Therefore if the horn stun skill I reffered to before is not even an option and its likely a freep class is getting something similar to the charge/ss stun I'm gonna have to change my mind and say I'd rather have this combo rather than nothing to keep from possibly nerfing reavers before we even know what lay ahead.

Last thing is I think the root proposal for blade toss is spot on to help with reavers being kited but feel it would be used in a completley different set of circumstances than a stun, however said stun may be delivered. So I hope it doesnt have to be one or the other.

Again thanks for the feedback it is much appreciated

Gii

[Des1]

The Short-Term Charge/Stun does fit the idea tho- Much like those stupid North Downs Cows do, when they charge at you, your initial damage was a short term stun. Getting hit by a superfast body shouldn't be pain-free.

However, there's enough derned CC out there already. I'd rather figure out a way to boost everyone's CC resistance in the Moors (yes, freeps and creeps both) so we reduce the stun chain-of-death on both sides.

Get CC'd once in a zerg- time for a bio, 'cos you're headed to the rez circle...

[Baslin]

To weigh in again on the stun, it is not going to be a game-changer.

I see one main use/benefit for it, and that is to dismount freeps without wasting Gut Punch, which would allow me to save GP for an initial ravage/gp/ss combo.

Since most "serious" PvMPers carry an arsenal of pots and the reaver has no other skill that would require pot usage, it is safe to blow a pot if a reaver lands an initial stun anyhow.

I like the idea of giving sword-toss a root, for sure.

[ifreborn1]

Wrath
-Partially my fault for not providing enough clarification.
-The way the skill will work: Upon getting a defeat event, the Reaver uses Wrath (consuming the defeat event). For the next 30s the Reaver will heal on successful skill attacks. At this point, you ask "what constitutes a successful skill attack?" The answer: The heal will proc ONCE PER SUCCESSFUL SKILL PLAY. Skills with multiple attacks or aoe damage will only proc once, not per hit. This will net the Reaver a total of 3k if he/she can land every potential hit over 30s.
-There are several solutions to coping with Wrath as a Freep: CC the Reaver. Kill the Reaver. Run away from the Reaver, etc...

This opens up another set of questions. Are you rethinking CC in the moors. As it stands right now It has kinda been moded out by DR, pots and slows are the king of the heap in my mind. I play a Reaver/Burg/LM/RK out in the moors. Slows devisate reavers and can make them useless vs a LM or RK even a good hunter just as if they were rooted or stun/mezed. Do the developers relize this? Do you intend for good kiting classes to always win?

As for just sticking to the reaver, any thoughts on making charge set run speed to 100% for 8 sec imune to root/stun/fear/mez when used combat? In my view, a set up like this would provide more complex interaction for both the reaver and his opponent. When do i Use my skill will it work? is the reavres buff up that will negate said skill. And as for freep balls makybe the reaver would not be pure cannon fodder in tar with his -70% movement speed.

[kurrency420]

Thanks Kelsen,




Def go with the root on blade toss, i havent used it yet and i belive it would help more than the stun in charge. As for the wrath skill great idea we needed a heal in a bad way. Many still complain about it healing up to 3k as you stated its a decent heal given we land the skillz me likes alot, its kinda like a heal that ya gotta work for . And to add on the gut punch idea reseting blade toss is a good idea. Thanks for your time!!

[Overtone]

Wanted to chime in on some of the posts here.
-I think Orion tried to express that this change as in relation to a similar skill being given to Freepside, but that didn't seem to stick.
-I'm not married to this and the generally discussion is against it, so it is definitely on my list 'Things that might not happen', but keep in mind that this does not mean the Freeps won't get it.

This may be beyond the scope of this discussion, so short /derail, but one thing that was awesome about Orion's initial institution of PvMP was that the classes and skills Creepside didn't mirror Freepside so strongly. As time has gone on, there has been a homogenization of all classes (turning them into DPS classes for the most part), and the skills have suffered as a result. I think this is primarily a result of a poor renown/infamy dispensation mechanic that fails to reward support/skill gameplay, but that's another issue.

The better approach when giving a high impact skill like some cc to Freepside would be to give an equally powerful counter skill to Creepside, and vice versa. So rather than mirroring skills on both sides, you are giving tactical equivalents which raise the bar for potential strategy and group synergies while maintaining balance. Just a thought... /end-derail

Improved Gut Punch
-I think a lot of Reavers have chimed in on the power cost associated with the Dev Strike rotation. The idea was to give Reavers better means of coping with tactical classes, but I can see revising it. Would any prefer a cooldown reset for Blade Toss (especially considering the revision below)?

This sounds fantastic. I would trait this on my Reaver.

Blade Toss
-Adding a Root or Snare was something that I considered when I first implemented this skill and to be honest, I love the idea. It is definitely up for consideration, especially if "Charge" loses the stun.

This would be truly epic. Much better than a stun while Charging.

Thank you so much for your attention to PvMP.

[Thane9]

Wrath seems pretty problematic to me. Based on the 1v1 viewpoint of a Champ.

But a LOT would have to come into play to fully analyze the situation.

Currently, the Reavers BPE is so high that the race to kill each other is often determined by that and by the respective morale pools (again the advantage going to the reaver).

If the BPE and morale pools were addressed then this would essentially become the Reavers version of CB. Which IMHO would be really cool.

But "CC, kill, or run away" aren't exactly options for people looking for PvMP that's more interesting than a zergball.

If there's ONE thing I would suggest, not only for Reavers but for ALL class/mechanic development for PvMP it's that PvMP should be ENCOURAGED in every case.

Not running away. Not CC. Not zergbomb. But actual engaging active Player versus Monster Player combat.

Skills and abilities, mechanics and landscapes that ENCOURAGE that idea would all be the most constructive for ALL players regardless of playstyle or class IMHO.

[Thorandril]

All of those proposals are good, especially the blade toss root/snare. The only other item on my wish list would be +2-300 icpr.

And the 2h trait possibility, but most of us have always wanted that.

[VillageStooge]

we need a bow i hate it when hunters DF away from me

[dwarf88]

Most of the changes sound great, thrash is in dire need of an update and a root would be sweet.

But while we are at it, why not fix some other skills/traits? Such as the r14 upper hand trait bonus, it is extremely useless and I would feel awful to get that as a reward. Would anyone actually trait it? I propose, that the r15 hamstring bonus trait is moved to a r14 trait, and the new r15 trait would be a boost of duration in charge, an extra 7 secs or so?
Granted not many people will see these traits, but why not give some more people motivation to?

Also, the r11 trait is utterly lacking. Just an extra 1 aoe target? I would suggest combining that with the jagged cut bleed trait. Would not be a bad idea raising it to 50% or 100% chance at bleed as well. With more and more traits we have been getting, it would be nice to combine two lesser used ones into one that might see some action. Considering it is r11, it needs an upgrade.

Severing strike could still use a boost, and some extra ways to get power would be nice, especially without wrath's power regen. Don't get me wrong, the new wrath looks sweet, but a new way to compensate for the power loss would be nice. Time-Out or against the odds boost in power maybe?

Lastly, the improved gut punch skill sounds like a great idea, but I'm not sure how well it will work. Considering if we are trying to crit for a reset on blade toss/root, how are we going to reach the kiter for a gut punch? And are we really going to depend on a 15% crit chance for another root? Personally I rather see a crit open up defeat responses, which could be a solution for power as well. As annoying as it is to be kited, I do not see this trait helping at all, so might as well make it a boost for normal combat.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for your time *cough* better cosmetics/weapons *cough*