So, no Guardian Dev Feedback?

[SaintBass]

*Shrug* So, in the absence of any numbers or specifics in that thread, one forum goer says that he won't play his guard anymore, and now the sky is falling? Where does it say that changing stances to glory will make a champ a full tank? Trait lines still exist.

Personally, barring some pretty titanic changes to Glory, I will always prefer tanking on my Guard than I will on my champ simply because a guard plays much more fluidly in a tanking role than a champ does. That's not even talking about the better survivability, better cooldowns, and greater range of tools that my guard has it his disposal.

As long as Orion is doing the updates for both classes, I have very little worry about the future of guards.

I think I was cited as an example because I have been playing a Guardian for a long, long time. Maybe not the longest of all here but long enough to have retain a good institutional memory of the class. Long enough to point out design flaws with the class that were exacerbated with MoM launch, long enough to clearly describe the classes short-comings and strengths and long enough to have argued about the classes role and relative worth... it doesn't hurt that I post pretty prolifically as well.

So, its not so much that my opinion has more value, but my opinion does tend to be very well informed. So yes, I am patiently awaiting information on Guardian, Champ and Hunter updates as they all interest me greatly, but I am not going to delete any of my toons on just a couple of hints that sound really awesome... and what little is known of the Champ changes are pretty awesome.

[Solien]

and now the sky is falling?

No. The sky isn't falling. I'll wait for more specifics about both the Champ and the Guard changes. But consider:

- A lot more people play Champs than Guards, at least as mains (no, I don't have numbers to back that up; I'm happy to go on faith that it's self-evident.)

- Guards have been hosed in the past (cf. Moria launch)

- Class changes don't address the fundamental problem with tanking in this game: nearly any class can do it outside of a few raid boss fights. We've already got two tanking classes in this game, one of which is not dependent on the cooperation of the rest of the group to do its job when played well, and now it appears that the most unpalatable aspects of Glory tanking (need for a shield and reduced damage output) have been removed. Right now I see no reason to think that a Champ traited for DPS who flips on Glory won't be a very good tank for the vast majority of content in the game.

But we'll see what changes are brought to the Guard class to make them a more viable part of group content.

[Orion]

Orion's blog post says that Glory allows Champs to tank how they play - that is, with heavy-hitting, high DPS rotations. And somehow it allows them to do this and survive without using a shield. So, they get big survivability boosts and will, apparently, still do good damage. Depending on the magnitude of each (damage and survivability) they could easily overtake GRDs and WRDs as they currently stand. It will depend on the GRD/WRD updates how New Glory affects us, though.

Woah! Hang on a minute, Chicken Little! Those are not the words that I wrote. This is what I wrote:

"Champions should not follow the Guardian mode for tanking. They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion. They should use their skills in a rotation-based style of game play that allows them to mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats.

Much of the tanking aspect of Champs will be pushed to the stance, with a moderate amount of skill revision or modification allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output. What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive. You will need to find the rotation that mimics the Champion game play as closely as possible."

I highlighted the areas of GREAT importance to all of the Guardians that are thinking we have some shadow conspiracy bent on making you worthless.

I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play.

Guardians will also see some alteration and enhancement in the future, I am just focusing on getting info to the champs first.

[MithrilSoul]

I must admit, I read the blog about champions with quite a bit of fear and trepidation...part of me immediately started thinking, "Oh gosh here we go again, this is going to be just like Moria launch."

I don't even know who our guardian dev is anymore, but whoever it is (if it isn't Orion) better be talking closely with Orion, because there is the potential for this to go very, very badly for guardians. If champs get survivability and threat generation that is anywhere in the ballpark of guardians, while also being able to maintain anything closer to the DPS that they currently have, then that is going to be a bad, bad situation for guardians everywhere.

Been there, done that. Once before. I hope to god we aren't going down that road again...

[qannadi]

If you're a Guardian and worried about the Champion tanking changes, just think.. You COULD be a Warden.

[NameAlreadyTaken]

I must admit, I read the blog about champions with quite a bit of fear and trepidation...part of me immediately started thinking, "Oh gosh here we go again, this is going to be just like Moria launch."

In order for it to be like Moria launch lots of other things would also have to change...

• Physical DPS from ranged and melee LIs would have to go up almost 20%.
• Hunters would need to get full damage back on the last arrow of Improved Swift Bow, Quick Shot would do more damage, and Merciful Shot would have a larger crit multiplier again.
• +Melee Defense would have to change back to uncapped, percentage based -Melee Vulnerability%.
• Instance mobs would need to have their crit rates reduces; bosses would have to crit a lot less.
• In Harm's Way/Last Stand would need to be 100% absorb.
• Crowd control, specifically snares/roots, would need to work again on instance bosses.
• Every instance would need at least one glaring exploit that to one degree or another trivializes a boss fight. Some of these exploits need to allow you to keep an instance boss from dealing any damage at all, while others will let you skip parts of an instance or shut down parts of a specific fight.
• Guardians would need to have their skills resisted around 3x as often as they see today.
• Whirling Retaliation would not have a threat steal component (when traited accordingly).
• Guardian's Threat would have to again be broken.

Notice how most of that list has nothing to do with Guardians? There was a lot happening at Moria release that made Guardians an unnecessary choice for a fellowship. The exploits alone meant that the primary reason you want a Guardian, extra durability versus the hard hitting thing(s) in an instance, were a non-issue for anyone that took advantage of the holes. Why take a Guardian if you never have to tank anything other than trash mobs?

Class changes for Champs won't bring back those days.

[scrubmonkey]

I see the proposed change as ONLY pleasing those with mindsets and who feel strongly already that "champs are more efficient and more optimal"...those who intrinsically will care little for class balance or whether the designated "main tanks" are then left in the dust while champs carry forth as being as good at AoE and single target dps as ever -- PLUS then will also supplant via their secondary tanking role those who are SUPPOSED to be tanking as a primary.

Are you kidding? Of coarse anyone who doesn't agree with you either has an ulterior motive or doesn't care. Of coarse.

So, its not so much that my opinion has more value, but my opinion does tend to be very well informed. So yes, I am patiently awaiting information on Guardian, Champ and Hunter updates as they all interest me greatly, but I am not going to delete any of my toons on just a couple of hints that sound really awesome... and what little is known of the Champ changes are pretty awesome.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't make it any more than your basic forum hyperbole...

- A lot more people play Champs than Guards, at least as mains (no, I don't have numbers to back that up; I'm happy to go on faith that it's self-evident.)

And? Same is true with RKs and Minis.

- Guards have been hosed in the past (cf. Moria launch)

EVERY class has been hosed in the past at some point or another.

- Class changes don't address the fundamental problem with tanking in this game: nearly any class can do it outside of a few raid boss fights. We've already got two tanking classes in this game, one of which is not dependent on the cooperation of the rest of the group to do its job when played well, and now it appears that the most unpalatable aspects of Glory tanking (need for a shield and reduced damage output) have been removed. Right now I see no reason to think that a Champ traited for DPS who flips on Glory won't be a very good tank for the vast majority of content in the game.

Is a guard fun to play?

Is it viable? Not talking about optimal, just viable...

If those two things are true, I see the threat to shelve the class as silly.

Trying to state that a viable glory tank will marginalize guards because they are a more frequently played class is false. It's been proven time and time again across multiple games that just because someone plays a class that is capable of tanking (or healing) doesn't necessarily mean that they will be inclined to do so... "LFF for X. Need tank" will always exist, because there will always be people who don't want to take on the increased responsibility to the group that the tanking role requires. Likewise, easier content is exactly that: easier content. So what if the more accessible instances are more casual and inclusive... that's not a bad thing. There is no fierce competition for spots in these instances because... they're easy. You miss a group, there's another group forming behind it.

As long as guards are viable, they will be desired. Of coarse, "viability" shouldn't be enough. We should always want a LOT more for our favorite classes, so what could this class use in order to be optimal? What could we ask for that no other class has and can distinguish guards from the pack?

Tactical resistance/defense is an area in tanking that could be more robust. Sure, you can gear/virtue/LI for these things, but those are pretty universal things. There's room for one of the tank classes to be noticeably better at it than the other tanks. Guards already have some degree of specialization in this area with Stoic, ect., but there's a whole lot of room to make it more of "a guard thing" via trait line bonuses, an active skill, ect. It would take some tweaking on the encounter side to make a change like this into something meaningful but... encounter design is already heading that way. The tools are already there.

That is one of the things that I would ask for.

[Grampsaz]

Those that know me know how excited I am for the Champ update. The new glory tank is exactly what I wanted for the Champ ever since I played a Death Knight in WoW.

Look, Champs, Wardens and Guards are, when its all said and done, fun to play. They do the same things though just in very different ways.

In my kin I know guys that play champs just to see big numbers. I know guys that play Guards and never OP because its not why they play guards. These aren't going to change because Champs can tank with out a shield.

Champs in kin aren't going to magically turn into tanks over night. Thats not why they play Champs. Now I personally, only have ever played a Champ because it was another option for me to tank. I play Warden kinda sorta, I play Guard when I have a chance to and I play Champ from time to time.

I've started to gear out my Champ now because I've always wanted to tank on Champ while staying in the same Champ gameplay that I find fun. As it stands right now a Champ with shield doesn't do it for me, so I play Guard instead.

But post update, Champs wont all be tanks. Guards wont all be outta jobs. They have work to do on all three tank classes to make sure they all have a spot. But its way too early to be getting concerned.

If you guys haven't read the Warden thread, Orion talks of better raid tanking and more dps. Should Guards be even more concerned? Or should we finally come to a conclusion that there are three tank classes and one might be better then the other for certain things?

[TUX426]

Woah! Hang on a minute, Chicken Little! Those are not the words that I wrote. This is what I wrote:

"Champions should not follow the Guardian mode for tanking. They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion. They should use their skills in a rotation-based style of game play that allows them to mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats.

Much of the tanking aspect of Champs will be pushed to the stance, with a moderate amount of skill revision or modification allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output. What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive. You will need to find the rotation that mimics the Champion game play as closely as possible."

I highlighted the areas of GREAT importance to all of the Guardians that are thinking we have some shadow conspiracy bent on making you worthless.

I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play.

Guardians will also see some alteration and enhancement in the future, I am just focusing on getting info to the champs first.

Can you explain how this should make any Guardian feel better? Because as I read it, you're saying "no no no...Champions won't be Guards. They'll be tanks that still hit like Champions"...which would completely negate any need for Guards who hit like...well...Guards.

[Orion]

Can you explain how this should make any Guardian feel better? Because as I read it, you're saying "no no no...Champions won't be Guards. They'll be tanks that still hit like Champions"...which would completely negate any need for Guards who hit like...well...Guards.

Allow me to make an attempt to explain:

Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

[SEAX]

Allow me to make an attempt to explain:


It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

[Deusdictum]

So... we have 9 different classes that, depending on how they're traited, boil down to 6 different roles - tank, dps, heals, cc, buffs, and debuffs - that they each do slightly differently, but to the same effect (particularly at higher levels).

Does that about sum it up?

[Grampsaz]

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

No they are 'fixing' the problem in the first place. Champs have been tanks since day one. They have got a true tanking role in MoM. It just wasn't good enough to allow Champs to sit in Glory and tank with as much sucsess as Guards.

Wardens' were added in Moria and they do have issues that they hopefully will adress. They have never been as popular as they could be, as a tanking class that does it differently then Guards.

Bottom line, there has always been other options besides Guards, they just weren't very good options for ALL content. They were good options for some content.

I can only hope that we have three true options after these changes. Doing Guards a disservice? Stop playing the victim role. There are are Wardens and TANKING champs to consider too.

[Grampsaz]

So... we have 9 different classes that, depending on how they're traited, boil down to 6 different roles - tank, dps, heals, cc, buffs, and debuffs - that they each do slightly differently, but to the same effect (particularly at higher levels).

Does that about sum it up?

Yes and this shouldn't be news to anyone. There has always been a primary and secondary role for classes, some were clearer then others, some where good some were bad.

[oldbustedjorn]

Allow me to make an attempt to explain:

Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.

What penalty do they incur from running in a tanking stance such that they can't just jump out of glory (or stay in it but do a pure dps rotation) such that you would rather bring a gaurdian or at least bringing a gaurdian would be equal? Or are you going going to buff guardian dps so that is equal as well (not recommending this, just asking for further clarification).

My concern would be that it would become a duality like the RK, except without waiting for attunement to change.

EDIT: By the way, I've always thought that being able to switch to OP in a group and still tank fairly well wasn't fair to champs, but I suppose it depends on other factors.

[Zaestro]

If you guys haven't read the Warden thread, Orion talks of better raid tanking and more dps. Should Guards be even more concerned? Or should we finally come to a conclusion that there are three tank classes and one might be better then the other for certain things?

No, no, and no. There were some promising blurbs for wardens from orion...but guards get a vague allusion to "some enhancements" at some undisclosed and likely uncoordinated time in the future...and have been waiting 18 months just for some minor niggling points to be addressed already.

Guards "hide behind shields"...which would be demeaning for a champ to do...and champs are meant to "hit like trucks...." Got it! Am even more certain now than before that these concerns for MAIN tanks are valid.

There are NOT...or were not, anyway, three main tank classes. This update looks to make champs have "main" primary and secondary roles...with main tanks doing less dps and not preferred as "sub-optimal," and being secondary or worse in both roles.

This is the exact situation from Moria...the rest of the problems with other classes didn't help, but this was the crux of the problem that persists in threads and debates even to this day (optimality in raids...OD already being tanked by champs) despite "main tanking" being brought a long way in the proper direction from SoM on.

Very disappointing Orion.

[SEAX]

No they are 'fixing' the problem in the first place. Champs have been tanks since day one. They have got a true tanking role in MoM. It just wasn't good enough to allow Champs to sit in Glory and tank with as much sucsess as Guards.

Wardens' were added in Moria and they do have issues that they hopefully will adress. They have never been as popular as they could be, as a tanking class that does it differently then Guards.

Bottom line, there has always been other options besides Guards, they just weren't very good options for ALL content. They were good options for some content.

I can only hope that we have three true options after these changes. Doing Guards a disservice? Stop playing the victim role. There are are Wardens and TANKING champs to consider too.

Back in SoA, which is what I first referenced, Guardians were the preferred tanking class. Sure a glory Champ could do it, but it wasn't common that it happened and most champs I know weren't interested in that role, they wanted to dps. MoM did change things, and not for the better for Guardians. And no, I'm not too concerned about Champs or Wardens when posting about Guardian issues on the Guardian forums. I haven't been overwhelmed with the number or Wardens and Champions on their own forums worrying too much about the proposed changes and what it may mean for Guardians. And since tanking is a secondary function for Champs, if they can do it as well as my primary purpose Guardian, well that is an issue unless the Guardian tweaks mean that a Guard running in OP now does enough damage that groups would seriously consider taking an OP Guard as dps over a champ, then I won't have any issues with these changes.

Stop being a revisionist historian.

[Zaestro]

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

You are far more patient and reasonable than I am in the face of this impending smash to the face. Point is dead-on.

[qannadi]

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

As someone whose original main is a minstrel.. if Captains could be a third main healer, awesome! If champs, wardens and guards can all tank hard content, I think that's great. Diversity should not be an obstacle. You have here three tanks who play very differently. You would have three healers who would presumably play very different (Captains would be much more in the thick of the fight, very different from minnies or RKs). You have DPS in hunters, champs, RKs that play very differently..

The fact is, until Champs really learn how to tank in their new role, they will be less desirable than Guardians. And we all know that playing with a GREAT Guardian is like nothing else.

But allowing other classes to fulfill the role is no bad thing. I don't want my friends to have to always rely on "Well, we don't have a minstrel, guess we can't do this." Think about how it would change LFF, if you had 3 viable tanking classes? It might not help YOU at all, but I'm sure there are a substantial number of players for whom tanking Champs could be beneficial.

[Sthrax]

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

I would gladly give up Glory-tanking if guardians lose Overpower. If guardians should be the only tank class, it wouldn't be fair for you to be able to DPS too. Guardians in Overpower step on MY toes, just as much as Champs tanking step on yours.

[Zaestro]

I would gladly give up Glory-tanking if guardians lose Overpower. If guardians should be the only tank class, it wouldn't be fair for you to be able to DPS too. Guardians in Overpower step on MY toes, just as much as Champs tanking step on yours.

So you agree...if champs are now going to be main tanks...OP guards should be made "main" dps, both single target and AoE...more than already is so!

[ANewMachine]

Woah! Hang on a minute, Chicken Little! Those are not the words that I wrote. This is what I wrote:

"Champions should not follow the Guardian mode for tanking. They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion. They should use their skills in a rotation-based style of game play that allows them to mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats.

Much of the tanking aspect of Champs will be pushed to the stance, with a moderate amount of skill revision or modification allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output. What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive. You will need to find the rotation that mimics the Champion game play as closely as possible."

I highlighted the areas of GREAT importance to all of the Guardians that are thinking we have some shadow conspiracy bent on making you worthless.

I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play.

Guardians will also see some alteration and enhancement in the future, I am just focusing on getting info to the champs first.

Look, on its own this paragraph says, to me, "You will need to change your rotations for new mitigation skills and effects, but Champions will still deal out 'savage beats,' while managing threat and mitigating incoming damage." To me, that's a reasonable condensed version of what you said. I don't think it was a "Chicken Little" interpretation - taking the smallest sign as one of doom.

[Zaestro]

Look, on its own this paragraph says, to me, "You will need to change your rotations for new mitigation skills and effects, but Champions will still deal out 'savage beats,' while managing threat and mitigating incoming damage." To me, that's a reasonable condensed version of what you said. I don't think it was a "Chicken Little" interpretation - taking the smallest sign as one of doom.

Which to me means cause for panic and for others to be looking over Orion's shoulder...GRAALX!!!!????!!!!? ???...and prevent potential disaster.

[Danaca]

I wouldn't get too terribly worried guys, most champs still want to DPS all out all the time and will want to even with a tanking stance available. Having tank abilities does not equate to wanting to tank.

And to whoever mentioned captains healing as well as minstrels/RKs...I've seen the combat parsers, and a lot of captains top mini single-target healing numbers without breaking a sweat. I <3 captains.

[MithrilSoul]

I would gladly give up Glory-tanking if guardians lose Overpower. If guardians should be the only tank class, it wouldn't be fair for you to be able to DPS too. Guardians in Overpower step on MY toes, just as much as Champs tanking step on yours.

Honestly?

I don't think ever in my life in LOTRO...ever...EVER...I have see on GLFF or LFF: "LF1M Melee DPS, champ or OP guardian wanted.' Sure I've seen groups, occasionally, grudgingly take an OP guardian when they were looking for a melee DPS role. But I've never seen a group happy about it, and I've damn well never seen a group take an OP guardian OVER a champ for the role of melee DPS.

EVER.

Yet I have seen plenty of groups (again, especially immediately post-MoM) actually take a champ OVER a guardian...specifically for the role of main tank.

That is just so very, very wrong I cannot even begin to fathom what more to say.

Whereas with stunning frequency (especially when MoM first came out), "LF1M tank wanted, champ preferred." Granted that is less common now, but mostly because the horrific damage done to the guardian class at MoM launch has been corrected.

If you give champs a stance that lets them tank "as well as" a guardian, while still being able to hit as hard as a champion normally hits (which seems to be what Orion is saying his goal is), then at the very least you need to give guardians a DPS stance that lets them DPS "as well as" a champ. Not just "do a little, mostly single-target DPS" but I mean the kind of full-bore DPS that a champion provides in a group.

And if you do that, then at some point you really have to ask yourself why LOTRO has them as two separate classes to begin with. Honestly. Other MMO's don't...the biggest one out (which will go unnamed here) there immediately comes to mind. In that game, you have one class that is BOTH the tank and the melee DPS class wrapped into one. One the new twists that LOTRO brought to the table to be different from "that game" is that in LOTRO, you had those two roles split into two classes; one could DPS great but not tank very well, the other could tank great but not DPS very well.

Now it seems as LOTRO goes along, it is becoming more like WoW (okay, I finally named it) and merging those two back into one. Which ultimately I think is a real shame, and ends up hurting both classes by making neither of them terribly distinctive from the other.