So Orion.. Wardens?

[Valkyrielady]

Since I was bored at work, I figured I'd check the upcoming changes to wardens. YES, that bored, since I don't even have one. Here's what I see in this forum though:

1. Group of people who seem to want to support wardens until the end of time. People who are just too proud to admit that wardens cannot actually tank end-game content like guardians, whether its aggro copy/surviving/whatever. You all make me laugh. Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

2. Group of people who realize wardens can't stand the heat and are proposing some good changes.

3. Wadens who are 65 and don't know what conviction is yet.


Like I said, I don't care what happens to wardens, but there is a reason why successful raiding kins don't use wardens over guardians to tank important stuff. Leave the trash mobs to wardens....

[Feraxks]

Since I was bored at work, I figured I'd check the upcoming changes to wardens. YES, that bored, since I don't even have one. Here's what I see in this forum though:

1. Group of people who seem to want to support wardens until the end of time. People who are just too proud to admit that wardens cannot actually tank end-game content like guardians, whether its aggro copy/surviving/whatever. You all make me laugh. Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

2. Group of people who realize wardens can't stand the heat and are proposing some good changes.

3. Wadens who are 65 and don't know what conviction is yet.


Like I said, I don't care what happens to wardens, but there is a reason why successful raiding kins don't use wardens over guardians to tank important stuff. Leave the trash mobs to wardens....

I hate feeding the trolls, but you must have skipped over the posts from members of the the Inklings who are NOT using guards to MT.

Just because you CAN tank with some class doesn't mean you should.

Quite true, but despite your implied meaning, Wardens ARE tanks -- its in the freaking class description!

Go back to creep land and whine about how OP the freeps are.

[rocketeer8015]

Actually i think some of wardens issues could be easily solved by buffing other classes. For example, how about a burglar skill that allows him to switch his threat with that of another person in fellowship? Or a trick that forces a target to attack the one with the lowest threat. Could also be used by a burglar to safe a healer, offtank for a while or just messing around.

I intentionally picked the burglar because i would like to see more of them btw. But really there are tons of things that could be done once we agree that its the FS lead by a warden tank that needs help, and not just the warden. If the devs don't want to give a warden the ability to recover threat after dieing, then give other people the ability to make the warden recover.

[Aloro]

Actually i think some of wardens issues could be easily solved by buffing other classes. For example, how about a burglar skill that allows him to switch his threat with that of another person in fellowship?

Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

[ANewMachine]

Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

100% agreed. The whole complaint right now is that Wardens need a Guardian to do aggro-swaps via Threat stance and Engage. A Guardian just needs someone else to swap to, and the class doesn't matter. We don't want to make Wardens reliant on having a Burg in the group, we want to make them self-reliant.

[rocketeer8015]

Burgs have a skill called Provoke, that increases the threat a foe feels for that foe's target. So they can already do this, kinda/sorta. It's on a very short timer; 5 seconds. Burgs can essentially help other people gain or lose aggro.

Champs have their own ways of doing this, as well.

However, what other classes can or cannot do really doesn't address what Wardens can or cannot do. The solution to our lack of tools in swapping aggro is NOT to give more tools to other classes.

Provoke is a straightup +threat, it will do exactly nothing for a recently revived warden trying to get back into a fight where his fellows have a threatlead in the 10 thousands. And yes, champs have a extremely effective way to regain aggro, doesn't help us though.

100% agreed. The whole complaint right now is that Wardens need a Guardian to do aggro-swaps via Threat stance and Engage. A Guardian just needs someone else to swap to, and the class doesn't matter. We don't want to make Wardens reliant on having a Burg in the group, we want to make them self-reliant.

I dare guess wardens being so self-reliant already is one of the reasons the devs are hesitant about making us even more so ...

Anyway, there is no point in asking for things we won't get. And the next best thing to needing a guardian for threatswap would be needing a guardian or burglar or LM or captain .... See where im going?

If its ok for this group to recover from tank death and have easy time swapping bosses

Guardian
Minstrel
Captain
Champion
Burglar
Hunter

Then its obviously also fine for this group:

Warden
Minstrel
Captain
Champion
Burglar
Hunter

However if its not fine for a Warden to be able to do it on his own ... There are not a lot of options left that exclude relying on others.

But yeah sure, if you can just convince Orion to give us the tools we need straightup im all game.

[ANewMachine]

Put it this way: say you're a Burglar main, and you're told your new skill in the update... fixes Warden's aggro issues.

How happy will you be on a scale of 1-10?

[LagunaD]

Confirmed by Orion in another thread:

The goal is to make Champions tank as well as Guardians.

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

(emphasis added)

Thus, Champions (who are a top DPS class as their primary role) will also be on par with the top tanking class, as their secondary role.

Now, obviously this philosophy implies that Wardens are *supposed* to be as good as Guardians (and Champs) too. But he seems to suggest that Wardens are already there, and Orion's comments in *this* thread (which have the appearance of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...) seem totally oblivious to the problems just about everyone else recognizes we have now.

[ofMiceandHobbits]

Correct me if I am wrong (I've only done aggro swapping, e.g. durin's bane and poison wing, with a warden-guard), but the real difficulty comes with warden-warden, where aggro swapping (beyond 5sec DC, which can be disastrous in poison wing) requires both wardens being close in threat levels (which can get out of balance if one warden does much more dps, or one spams PB too much, or if one warden's group builds more threat for conviction to transfer, etc.). Has anyone done any of the new boss fights with a warden-warden combo? I'd like to hear how it went. But on the main topic, yes, this is a game mechanism where wardens could use a little more help, though not a skill that would remove any challenge from such fights.

We've tank swapped between two wardens on Poison boss just fine with no champ help. Just takes a try or two to coordinate how much threat you are generating. After that, its smooth as she goes. The warden who needs to get threat goes Reckless and spams PB. The warden who has aggro just heals himself and auto attacks in conservation. Works pretty well.

That being said, Poison boss is not a *precise* aggro swap fight. Durin's Bane with two wardens would be best achieved by having one warden Force Taunt with Defiant Challenge every 25-30 seconds. That way the force taunt warden would get the -inc healing, +inc damage, inability to B/P/E debuff from Durin's Bane the whole time, and the warden that was tanking would just sit there and tank with no debuff other than the 5 second force taunt. Problem is, a champ or captain can do this better than the warden can already.

Ideas for ways to improve warden threat management:

Gambits for +15% or -15% perceived threat (20-30s duration)
Stace for +15% or -15% perceived threat (Conservation / Determination)
Defiant Challenge becomes a 10 second force taunt with Fist Capstone (chain-able if necessary)

[geoboy]

Confirmed by Orion in another thread:

The goal is to make Champions tank as well as Guardians.


(emphasis added)

Thus, Champions (who are a top DPS class as their primary role) will also be on par with the top tanking class, as their secondary role.

Now, obviously this philosophy implies that Wardens are *supposed* to be as good as Guardians (and Champs) too. But he seems to suggest that Wardens are already there, and Orion's comments in *this* thread (which have the appearance of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...) seem totally oblivious to the problems just about everyone else recognizes we have now.

Wondered if you'd pop in on this one. I like your titanic allegory.

[Aloro]

Provoke is a straightup +threat, it will do exactly nothing for a recently revived warden trying to get back into a fight where his fellows have a threatlead in the 10 thousands. And yes, champs have a extremely effective way to regain aggro, doesn't help us though.

For the record, Provoke does help a newly rezzed Warden to gain aggro. That's precisely what it does. I don't know why you're focusing only on a newly rezzed Warden, but ok. It's a weak tool in that regard but it's better than nothing.

Champs have a skill called "Ebbing Ire" that allows them to dump 25% of their own threat onto someone else, e.g. a Warden. That, too, would help with your scenario of a newly rezzed Warden trying to regain aggro. Actually, it can help a lot.

I still want Wardens to have their own tools though and not to rely on others for basic functionality.

LotRO is not designed for specific group compositions, nor should it be. Requiring that specific other classes be present, for one class to fulfill its primary (and indeed only) role makes no sense.

Guardians don't need Burgs around, for those Guards to do their own jobs. Why should Wardens need Burgs around to do our jobs? Sure, other classes can help in a lot of ways, but no class should be gimped without a specific selection of other classes helping fill in for their weak spots. That doesn't sound like fun to me at all.

[Master_Valandil]

Once again... It seems ridiculous that a champ will now be the best at AoE DPS and also be able to tank as well as a guardian, when a warden can't do either (at least not as easily). Turbine needs to get their priorities straight.... Or at least stop calling warden a "premium" class. Too harsh, maybe. But certainly quite true.

[Jeger_Wulf]

For the record, Provoke does help a newly rezzed Warden to gain aggro. That's precisely what it does.

Actually, it is precisely what it does not do. Povoke adds aggro to the mobs target. In order for Provoke to help a rezzed warden, he'd have to cast a DC in order to force aggro, and then the burg would hit Provoke while the mob was on the warden.

This would be a net loss of aggro over spamming PBs or Conviction. The Warden would regain aggro slower if he tried to allow the burg to use Provoke.

[Aloro]

Actually, it is precisely what it does not do.

Erm, no.

Povoke adds aggro to the mobs target. In order for Provoke to help a rezzed warden, he'd have to cast a DC in order to force aggro, and then the burg would hit Provoke while the mob was on the warden.

Assuming the Warden in question has DC slotted, that would work fine, yes. To be fair though many Wardens don't slot DC. For those who do, you've just shown exactly how to use Provoke to help a Warden get aggro. And you've done that while claiming that Provoke can't be used to help a Warden get aggro.

This would be a net loss of aggro over spamming PBs or Conviction. The Warden would regain aggro slower if he tried to allow the burg to use Provoke.

In this very specific and oddly limited situation, presumably the Warden is trying to pull aggro for a reason, e.g. the Burg will die if stuff isn't pulled off him. "DC -> Provoke -> Conviction -> build threat normally" might very well save that Burg's life, in this very specific and oddly limited situation you keep bringing up. So, yes, Provoke can help a bit there. It's, as I've repeatedly said, a weak tool, but better than nothing. Sure, you can poke holes in it. Yes, it's not foolproof. Sure, you can imagine a hypothetical scenario where it won't work well. But you can also pretty easily imagine a number of hypothetical scenarios where it'll be helpful.

Again, I don't like the idea of depending on other classes for this stuff anyhow.

All I was saying is that those tools already exist, in the hands of other classes. Adding more such tools to other classes won't address the underlying issue here at all.

[SkateDr]

Wow, stop reading the forums for a bit and look how much catching up I have to do.

First:

with shield capstone you can easily pulse at 160 a pulse, multiply that by 6 fellowship members and multiply that by number of pulses, with capstone that's 6 pulses and the initial pulse so that's 7. thus: 160*6*7=6720 morale healed. that's nothing to turn your nose at.

this also make a massive difference to threat generated. iirc healing threat is equal to half that of DPS, so with a quick division Conviction is worth 3360 damage points on each active mob. assuming most trash fights have 3-4 mobs active that's worth approx 10080 damage points (assuming 3 mobs) every 18 seconds, that's alot of threat generated.

I think some of the misconceptions here have been addressed, but also wanted to point out that if a mob is not actively targeting someone (even if that someone is on that mobs agro list), healing them generates exactly 0 threat. I have tested this extensively on my RK and it is one of the ways I tier up safely when I need to tier up but don't need/want to generate any agro yet.

Second - One thing I would like to see changed/modified is "threat" from a level based amount to a weapon based amount. Essentially what they are doing right now is saying everytime we had higher DPS weapons at current level cap, tanks jobs will become tougher. I don't want agro to be easy ... but at the same time, do not improve DPS classes ability to DPS via gear alone without giving us a means of doing the same.

And thanks Geof for pointing out the amount of conviction heals we generate. Been preaching this for some time and Combat Analysis is a wonderful tool to help show how much we actually heal. While I would not advocate going for an outgoing healing build (tried this, was not a signicant enough difference for what we give up imho ... unless we were strictly going for heals and nothing else), in wings like Poison, Fear, Ivar where there is a significant amount of group wide damage, we rock. My healers usually tell me it is easier to heal when I am there than when I am not but then, maybe they are just being nice since I lead the raids

Thanks for your attention and here is to hoping we get a good meaningful update that does not require us to completely relearn our toons .... again.

[heynanni]

And thanks Geof for pointing out the amount of conviction heals we generate. Been preaching this for some time and Combat Analysis is a wonderful tool to help show how much we actually heal. While I would not advocate going for an outgoing healing build (tried this, was not a signicant enough difference for what we give up imho ... unless we were strictly going for heals and nothing else), in wings like Poison, Fear, Ivar where there is a significant amount of group wide damage, we rock. My healers usually tell me it is easier to heal when I am there than when I am not but then, maybe they are just being nice since I lead the raids

THIS. Our healers love our MT Pyr because of his hots and conviction. I'm using his name instead of my warden because Pyr is our best warden. Tanking is a lot of experience, so while my kin has great guards, our wardens have been working together longer. We can do raids with all 3, our champs easily hold their own as tanks.

I don't want wardens to be the ONLY tank, I don't want champs or guards to be it either. I love how much fun range tanking is on Nanni, I love swap tanking with her be it with a guard or another warden (I haven't done it much with a champ).

As was said previously, 2 wardens can work together to match aggro closely and it will work. Doesn't anyone remember learning how to do Rung and Blagh in DN? Very similar mechanic there of trying to match aggro. Its been around for a long time in this game.

Tanking adjustments should focus on specializing through the 3 tank classes. The Devs need to agree on who specializes in what and then focus the changes there.

If anyone wants to see raid MT wardens in action, come onto Meneldor and look up The Inklings. We have some tactics no one else on our server uses

Tanking aside, I like the idea that the gambits become more equally useful. I would love an incentive to use Boar's Rush more often. What about making shield piercer more effective? I like the tools we have now, I don't really want any new skills, I think we need refinement.

[artax33]

If champs are becoming a tanking class, a fair trade off ,imo, would be wardens should get better dps traited spear. My understanding is that a guard traited Keen Blade can dps fairly well. Traiting spear you would nerf the threat you can do and HoTs and reduce power consumption.(Can't use Darkness before Dawn when not losing heath). You don't need to make them the most desirable dps class in the game, you can make dps there secondary. I for one would love this.

[rocketeer8015]

Traiting spear you would nerf the threat you can do ...

Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

[Morcanden]

Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

QFT. I swear I only do 350-400 DPS unbuffed, but mobs usually turn and face me as though my attacks have additional threat on them. I almost never get to use Wages of Fear.

[disappearingone]

Wardens are imho the most advanced class in lotro to play and master. And truth be told, i think that anyone who is not a Warden main could not really know what Wardens do need or don't need. Its easy to look at the numbers of what a hunter or champ can do and see where things are weaker or stronger But because This class is easily one of the most advanced classes to play of any mmo in aware of, i think our dev's in charge of the class [past and present] really don't know what to do with us.

Yes, anyone can look and say this gambit does this and this gambit does that but what about the time taken to build them, What if your in a 6 man w/o a LM and are stunned at the start of a fight or disarmed/silenced while your pots on CD or, the mini gets a lag spike and you go down, etc? The gambit system is fun to learn and use but comes with handicaps due the fact that a large portion of the class's skills are gated behind a set amount of gambit builders and we cant just queue up the next gambit while waiting for the one before to execute. These things also make the class exiting and fun to play but my point here is that 'on paper' and 'in practice' are two very different things thanks to general game play situations and class mechanics.

Its one reason i dislike puging raids. I hate when someone who has no idea how warden class mechanics work say's "run in and pop Conviction then start kiting" Um...it don't work that way. I need more then a Conviction at the start of a fight off to hold aggro. I get this same feeling when Class revisions roll around. I know that just because "they" create the skills, add and subtract from aspects of the class or change traits does not mean "they" know what works, what does not work or what is practical to use.

Take the whole "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used. All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered." If this turns out to be a % of a chance type of thing and all of the sudden i get two builders i do not want i'd have to use recovery, Meaning more power and time blown in order get the gambit i want to build built. The only reason this Idea would even float onto the table is to help speed up the building of gambits in order for us to not have to slot masteries...why not just make masteries trainable then?...Even though personally, having to trait masteries is not that big of a deal to me but it's this kind of thing that gets under my skin.

The champ changes [in comparison] look sweet: Glory champ tank's more in line with Champ playstyle. Great Idea... more competition on the MT front but still sweet idea to encourage the use of glory and bring champ mentality into a tanking role. Fervour will generate less threat...ok, thats sort of good. Boy, it sure looks like champs could have every little to complain about after RoI. They can still tank in Fervour, Just means they have to put out even more dps! And, if they want to MT big stuff and still swing a big stick that hits big numbers thats cool too.

Wardens cant even get a piratical recovery from defeat skill, three class traits unlocked or a precise threat management tool. But, We can have some "Addition of effects" that may cause mis-built gambits and/or frustrating delays to the next gambit intended to be built.

I love this game but, i really would like a Warden to make changes to Warden not someone who either is a "i play all the classes" person or a person who plays from the perspective of say a Hunter, Champ or Mini. We are all on a bus, we all want to go somewhere but the bus driver just knows how to drive the bus not how to get us where we want to go.

Its not what Orion said was a bunch of bad things for us Wardens Just things that are either in the wrong direction or baby steps in the right direction.

[Aloro]

Take the whole "Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used. All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered." If this turns out to be a % of a chance type of thing and all of the sudden i get two builders i do not want i'd have to use recovery, Meaning more power and time blown in order get the gambit i want to build built.

I share this concern. Well said.

The idea of these additional effects is intriguing, certainly, but it seems to have a lot of potential to disrupt me as much as it helps me. I absolutely do not want a random chance of some gambit chain builders showing up in my bar. I don't want to have to stop and double check every time I perform a gambit to see what unwanted stuff I'm saddled with that I have to clear before I carry on with my business. If it's something that's controllable and predictable, ok, I'm interested.

[HolyGigi]

Wardens can't get a decent update. Why? Mini's icon set hasnt been changed this year, so I bet thats on the high priory list. Second, hunters only get 2 updates in the last.. two updates.
I have no idea how they decide what class should get an update now, and what class can deal without one.
Some classes have waited 3 years for an update (cappys for IDoME for example) and still nothing. Guess not many devs play them.

I know, I'm mean.

[ANewMachine]

Wardens can't get a decent update. Why? Mini's icon set hasnt been changed this year, so I bet thats on the high priory list. Second, hunters only get 2 updates in the last.. two updates.
I have no idea how they decide what class should get an update now, and what class can deal without one.
Some classes have waited 3 years for an update (cappys for IDoME for example) and still nothing. Guess not many devs play them.

I know, I'm mean.

Er? Cappys got an update with F2P, and it was largely considered fairly successful. No, IDOME wasn't addressed, but they got a major class revision that filled in gaps and made them sometimes consider traiting out of HoH.

I share your pessimism about priorities, though.

[rocketeer8015]

In all honesty ... when i took a look at the tooltip of NS the first time ... yes i was real thoughtfully like about what the person designing this skill had in mind when doing so.

I mean the mere idea that any kind of skill would be worth shutting down our hots and masteries ... Im just not sure what to think about that. I think they have a rather skewed view about the importance of our masteries... Trying to tank any harder instance(and you wouldn't die in a easy one in the first place) without masteries is just ... a really novel idea.

Also im a bit worried that when we get around to our update it will filled with the same kind of thinking that created NS, i.e. something i just can't follow.

[Drglory]

In all honesty ... when i took a look at the tooltip of NS the first time ... yes i was real thoughtfully like about what the person designing this skill had in mind when doing so.

I mean the mere idea that any kind of skill would be worth shutting down our hots and masteries ... Im just not sure what to think about that. I think they have a rather skewed view about the importance of our masteries... Trying to tank any harder instance(and you wouldn't die in a easy one in the first place) without masteries is just ... a really novel idea.

Also im a bit worried that when we get around to our update it will filled with the same kind of thinking that created NS, i.e. something i just can't follow.

This is exactly why i was happy when i found out orion was getting wardens. New dev, new chance.