The Riddle-Game

[Rouven]

Umm, I believe Finwe was the first to die (?) - but I can't remember that he swore an oath or that he sighed when he left valinor. All these elves got me contused.
Right from the start I thought - this sounds like an elf - but I can't really put my finger on it.

[Itharas]

Not Finwe. Before that.

[Andjay]

Got it. The answer must be Manwe, in congress with all the other Valar, who swore that they would never again come forth in battle against Morgoth, for their wrath was too great; and they feared the unmaking of the world if they should do so.

In so swearing, they created many long years of sorrow for the Eldar and the Edain as Morgoth ruled nigh uncontested. And finally, they relented by the plea of Earendil.

[Itharas]

Not Manwe, no.

[Rouven]

Ok, I peeked into the Silmarillion again, my last guess:

Denethor, son of Lenwe, who led the Nandor which stayed behind years later westward and fell in the first battle of Beleriand.

[Itharas]

Not Denethor.

[Tylpe]

I'm going to guess Elenwë, wife of Turgon.

[Andjay]

This riddle has me stumped:

I swore once never to return
And from that oath came long years of sorrow.

- Taken alone, this could be the Valar, could be any of the Calaquendi that took up Feanor's oath.

But as time passed, I changed my mind
And with a sigh, came forth once more.

- This stays consistent with the Valar, but severely limits the Calaquendi population, since very few of them returned, reluctantly or otherwise.

I was the first of my family to die
Yet no one seems to remember.

- This seems to contradict the second portion; the first of my family to die usually doesn't have an awful long time to regret swearing an oath. Particularly not "long years of sorrow". So this clue seems to indicate that it is not, in fact, an elf, because 1) the first of them to "die" was Feanor's mother (who is indeed seldomly remembered) unless we count the unknown elves at Cuivienen who were taken by Melkor, but since no specific accounts of them or their fates really exist, it's no wonder that no one remembers them. No one "membered" them in the first place. (Props to my Society of Lost Positive homies) In any event, Feanor's mother Miriel never returned from the Halls of Mandos, unless I am mistaken.

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I swore once never to return

-obviously, the answer has left some place or state for some good reason, indicating a sentient creature.

And from that oath came long years of sorrow.

-long, sorrowful years spent in other location/state. What's less obvious is that the wording allows for the individual in question to be the AUTHOR of that sorrow; ie, evil creature swears never to return to location x, and makes life miserable for everyone in location y.

But as time passed, I changed my mind

-proponent has had a slow-to-materialize change of heart

And with a sigh, came forth once more.

- the lack of an location identifier here is leading; it implies that the "never to return" is some sort of "withdrawal" as opposed to a "going forth", ie more like the Valar withdrawing from directly acting upon Arda, and less like the Noldor issuing forth from Valinor. Furthermore, it might allow for some long-forgotten relic to be the answer. However, the "sigh" part seems to indicate a living creature, which may be contradictory to other parts of this riddle, even itself.

I was the first of my family to die

-this is pretty straightforward. There can't be many of those. but again, I'm not completely sold that we're talking about a person, or even a sentient creature, be it orc, dragon, ent, troll, dwarf, etc. It could be something like a silmaril, or the one ring which, while it has no sentience perse nevertheless is treated by the text as a (leading) character. (I even typed this sentence originally with a "who" instead of a "which" which further proves my point)

Yet no one seems to remember.

-further narrowing the already narrow field of "first to die". However, could this be one of the first of the Edain? But if so, that is seemingly contradicted by the first portions?

The very last line here eliminates as a possibility almost every major character who otherwise fits the other parts of the riddle. Galadriel, Turgon, pretty much any and every King, etc.

[Andjay]

So far, Elenwe does seem to be the best fit, though I think it's a stretch to say that dying, and thereby entering the halls of Mandos constitutes a "return" to Valinor, because once one is inside the halls, there's no real coming out. She was never in the halls of Mandos, and therefore cannot "return" to them.

Still, Elenwe does seem to fit.

[Itharas]

- This seems to contradict the second portion; the first of my family to die usually doesn't have an awful long time to regret swearing an oath. Particularly not "long years of sorrow". So this clue seems to indicate that it is not, in fact, an elf, because 1) the first of them to "die" was Feanor's mother (who is indeed seldomly remembered) In any event, Feanor's mother Miriel never returned from the Halls of Mandos, unless I am mistaken.

And yet, 'twas indeed Miriel Serinde to whom I was referring. According to the Statute of Finwe and Miriel, the only way for an elf to be allowed to remarry after the death of his/her spouse was if the elf who had died swore to remain in the Halls of Mandos forever [I swore once never to return]. This Miriel did, allowing Finwe to marry Indis, which many say was responsible for the later actions of Feanor towards his half-brothers [And from this oath came long years of sorrow]. When she was reborn (which she indeed was) she then changed her name to Firiel, which had a two-fold meaning: "She who died" or "She who sighed" [And with a sigh came forth once more]. And since you already got the meaning to the other part, I won't reiterate it.

Anyway, your turn.

[Andjay]

I am the second, found first in the Tower,
Lovingly crafted.
I am the treasure, found next in the Star,
Lovingly lifted.
I am the salvaged, found third in the Moon,
Lovingly grafted.
I am the last, found twice in the Sun,
Lovingly lofted.
Finally I am the first found at last on the Mountain,
Lovingly gifted.

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Editor's Note: Try this one on for size!

[Itharas]

The white tree

[Andjay]

I hate you


...I mean, do you know how hard it is to find words that end in "fted"?

[Itharas]

I'm sorry. xD

And I'm sure it wasn't easy coming up with all of those. If it's any consolation, I was being very jealous of your rhyming skills the whole time I was reading it.


Okay, let's try this one. Hopefully it will be easier than my last one:
That which is seen is hidden from sight
Revist the past, but try as one might
Light can be white when darkness is bright.

[Andjay]

My best guess is the Nazgul realm between the worlds.

[Itharas]

No. It's not lore-related, though part of it is game related--er, not anymore.

[Andjay]

Okay, since it's been days since there was a response to this, I'm going to ask for a re-work of this riddle. As it stands, the riddle seems to be full of problems:

That which is seen is hidden from sight (this line is fine-self-contradicting, but that's a hallmark of a great riddle)
Revist the past, but try as one might (this line needs a second part to complete the thought--but I can't see how the 3rd line connects to the 2nd--you're revisiting the past, but the wording "try as one might" indicates that some supposed action is futile, ie, canNOT and then the next line says "x CAN y" which makes no sense, and then there's the subject of the line itself: )
Light can be white when darkness is bright. (this line doesn't work. While I'm sure that it is central to the riddle, there is no way that darkness can be bright--the word selection is off here, I think--and I can't see any way to make the presence or absence of "bright darkness" have any relevance to the perceived colour of light...which can't be there anyway, since darkness precludes light, especially white light, past, present, or future.)


I don't know. Maybe I should have just asked for a clue.

[Itharas]

Fair enough. But I like the third line...it's epic. And once you have the answer (which you almost do...), you would see that it really does work. However, this really is a perfect example of why I shouldn't try to make things rhyme....

Uhm....so let's try it this way:

Right is left; left is right.
That which is seen is hidden from sight.
Light can be white when darkness is bright.


Or I could just come up with an entire new riddle, if you prefer....

[Andjay]

Is it Gandalf in spirit-form transit after he died or before he is reincarnated? Or perhaps the concept of impossibility?

Also, if it's not lore-related, and it's no longer related even to the game, is it related to LOTR? And if not, should it be on this thread?

[Itharas]

It's not Gandalf or impossibility, though I like that one.

Still not lotr related, and the answer has already been used in this thread.

[Rouven]

A shadow seen through a mirror

[Itharas]

Close enough; just any means of reflected shadow. xD

Your turn.

[Angeliel]

I'm not in the Shire
Nor am I by the fire
I'm filled with gloom
When I'm in the room
All pacing and brooding
Is my constant mood-ing

But my voice rings proud
(If perhaps overloud)
If it's all the same,
(As I care not for this game)
I wonder, Can you guess my name?

[Itharas]

Hmm...interesting, precious...

It feels kind of like a waterfall...or thunder....but I somehow don't think that's quite it...

[Andjay]

no idea.

can you give a hint, perhaps?