Come list ye' grievences

[Mulkfather]

Both sides saying how the other does this, when both sides do everything. They both ninja keeps. They both target out certain individuals. They both camp rez circles. They both farm noobs. They both whine about the other high ranked opposites. They both use STAB, WTAB. They both stay near one held keep when map is overwhelmed. Both sides lose and both sides die. Both sides zerg. Just been my experience anyway and thats on mulitple servers.

Pretty well says it all for me. I have seen more overt griping on my jaunts creep side (limited sample though), but otherwise, the complaints, tactics, class or lack of it, etc are identical.

Except for SARS. I haven't met anyone quite like him freep side yet.

[Gillianrial]

I don't agree with the OP on the "everyone should join the raid" or we're elitist philosophy. I don't like to raid very often in PvP, so I don't. If people don't like that ... oh well. It's my zone too - not just "The Raid's."

Since it's a grievance thread, this is mine: I don't enjoy hearing that us lowly soloers or small groupers don't add anything to the zone or to our side, when in reality the intel flowing in OOC (such as it is) is from people that move around constantly - not a big raid sitting in basically one area of the map only talking to themselves. Personally, I don't like being told that I should leave the area because I'm supposedly "leeching" (as I heal and rez all the raid's people...obviously). On top of that, after I have been called a leecher by people who have never step foot out of their homebase without a group, they'll happily come and zerg the small fights I am able to find off on my own. Sweet irony.

There should be room for all playstyles. OK I don't like yours and you don't like mine, but we can co-exist way better IMO.

/peace

[Arvaen]

OK I don't like yours and you don't like mine, but we can co-exist way better IMO.

/peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx0Shn5Hvpc

[Elderban]

These two points contradict themselves, which confuses me -- you hate zergs, but you want raids -- huh? They also remind me of my main gripe with the 'moors population:

The zerging is referring to creepside. If there's a raid out there, it's a raid of 40 to 50 or so. If it's any less than that, then they turtle in keeps and won't move. In fact, when I was freepside once, the creeps even TOLD us they weren't coming out...even though they had more people than us.

The lack of raids referred to Freepside. More people run around solo freepside than they do in groups or in a raid.

I think Tubine's changing the Moors around back in Mines of Moria actually backfired and has pretty much turned PvP into what it has become. The Ettenmoors rocked pre-Moria.

[Jungleghost]

Shyma, I'm going to wreck you like Pouncival with a pound of bacon.

Nom nom nom... Ooooooh yeah.

[Radardog]

I can't bring myself to side with the crowd of, 'It's my game, I can do what I want.'

Not in a MMO, sorry. As a community, it's strangely everyone's game.

I'm not ready to distance myself from sportsmanship in favor of the lulz just yet.

In general, sportsmanship refers to virtues such as fairness, self-control, courage and persistence and has been associated with interpersonal concepts of treating others and being treated fairly, maintaining self-control in dealing with others, and respect for both authority and opponents.

Virtues are all about balance, and I don't think anyone is expecting everyone to be white knights, but at the same time, everyone should be aware that just because you're online, it doesn't mean that sportsmanship is no longer a valid concept.

[SOLARMAX]

Ech, your voice is an echo of words spoken in the distant past. Few here now can understand what you say, few among those still abide by these beliefs.

[Celdlithe]

The zerging is referring to creepside.

I still get zerged more on my creep then I do on my freep...

[Baslin]

The zerging is referring to creepside. If there's a raid out there, it's a raid of 40 to 50 or so. If it's any less than that, then they turtle in keeps and won't move. In fact, when I was freepside once, the creeps even TOLD us they weren't coming out...even though they had more people than us.

The lack of raids referred to Freepside. More people run around solo freepside than they do in groups or in a raid.

I think Tubine's changing the Moors around back in Mines of Moria actually backfired and has pretty much turned PvP into what it has become. The Ettenmoors rocked pre-Moria.

I cannot remember the last time we had 40-50 raided. I also don't know how you fit more than 24 in a raid.

Additionally, any raid I am in does not sit in keeps unless we are AFK, which also does not happen regularly (and my tribe leads a lot of creep raids).

Perceptions are clouded.

[borges_maze]

Perceptions are clouded.

Indeed they are. On both sides.

I don't go creepside very much, but I see many of the same complaints over there as I do freepside. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occurring, but I would guess that it has something to do with neither side being at full strength at the exact same time. This and the tendency of raids on both sides to focus on taking keeps.

[why2020]

This is a good question, but it really is for you to figure out, primarily because the good fight is an ideal. Within the constraints of our sandbox, it is more an intention than anything, to enter the Moors in the spirit of competition to seek out engagements with other players that test your skills and abilities, while equally testing theirs. That is how I define it because that is how I approach it.

However, the definition is not static and certainly varies from player to player. It is also the case that general conditions in the Moors itself may preclude the possibility of even having a good fight on a given night. However, I am a firm believer in intentionality, and I believe that if you go out to the Moors looking for good fights, then you are more likely to find them.



I see your point. However, the anything goes nature of the Moors is not a matter of opinion. It is an acceptance of the limitations inherent in the zone itself. There are limitations that simply cannot be changed/overcome while playing there. The majority of these limitations are set by Turbine. While I am certainly in favor of players taking responsiblity for everything they can, and even stating their opinions about it, there are limitations to our Moors gameplay that even restrict those with the best of intentions or opinions.

By the way, the "stop telling me how to play" was a simplification of a finer point regarding gameplay constables that I object to, and that is primarily the fact that there is no one or even two ways of PvMPing that are better than any others. This is by design to the effect that I believe the open nature of the zone is actually structured to encourage as many gameplay styles as possible within its boundaries.


I agree with you on this. The only way I can see to impact the zone beyond an "anything goes" style is to create a style of your own and possibly influence other players with that style. There is still a profound limit on how much that influence means, but it certainly is a real dynamic of the Moors. However, that is the extent to which we can really make an impact. The Moors is a place of action, not words, and that is why our reputations as players are really what define us.

+rep sir

[Calem]

I agree with you on this. The only way I can see to impact the zone beyond an "anything goes" style is to create a style of your own and possibly influence other players with that style. There is still a profound limit on how much that influence means, but it certainly is a real dynamic of the Moors. However, that is the extent to which we can really make an impact. The Moors is a place of action, not words, and that is why our reputations as players are really what define us.

+Rep, sage advice Alpha and a small note about style.

Sars often tries to influence us with his "style" but his pickle-stained loincloth is more infectious than most health limits permit. If he ever asks to show you something at the back of Isen, be afraid, be very afraid, now which high profile Guardian will own up to Sars pwning him 1v1, perhaps with the help of an NPC or 2 or 8?

[CVIgdal]

I was on creepside Monday night, and it eventually turned into a fight/rez camp in front of OC.

The problem was 3 cosmonauts, Danethor, a burg, and some other brain surgeon.. decided that they wanted to cut-off people from the main fight, a mere 30 yards away. That amount of BS greed needs to stop. You're not only robbing the creeps of a fair fight in that particular situation, but also the freeps who are 30 FREAKIN YARDS FROM YOU. If you want to snipe people solo, or in a 2-man, or whatever.. use the main raid as a hat and go for KBs and stat-mining nonsense that way. What happens when you're fighting in front of OC and you have rez-ganking rocket scientists? The creeps naturally pull into OC, or go elsewhere.

You going to get any renown after that happens? I didn't think so. Are the creeps gonna get any infamy either? Nope. Is it an efficient way of fighting? Nope. And the same goes for a few select creeps that like to do that stuff. I've fought enough rez-circle battles this past month to notice the difference between 6 wargs waiting for 1 guy vs a 6 on 6 or similar numbers. I won't stand for that, since I'll just flip to freepside and start mowing over some wargs or whoever the heck it is.

And don't even try and spew that hogwash about 'if you dont like it, then move in any of 360 directions from the rez'. Sooo.. yer basically saying if I don't like a situation I have to stop playing in the moors? That's hilarious.
And whats to stop you freeps from noticing that we're leaving the rez circle in a direction other than the fight and ya'll jump on a horse and run us down anyway? Nothing. At all. So that's a logical fallacy in and of itself. Map out? Sure we could do that but that's essentially forcing us to stop playing PvP for awhile, and burns a map cooldown.

You're no longer PvPing at that point, you're gaming the system into something it wasn't totally intended for. You're exploiting the limitations of the zone.

Just think about the impact your actions have on gameplay, if some of you are capable of that, before you start trying to be a self-serving egomaniac. Be more about your side as a whole instead of just being out for yourself regardless of it yer in the raid or not and it'll get you better results than trying to be the one that shows that they've a bigger stick or that they can do this/that in the Moors.

[F1erceGam3r2]

I'm sad I still don't have a large flying eagle mount on any of my freeps yet.... Let me know when it becomes available in the store so I can use my TP to snag one!!!

Gutlard Out!

[why2020]

I was on creepside Monday night, and it eventually turned into a fight/rez camp in front of OC.

The problem was 3 cosmonauts, Danethor, a burg, and some other brain surgeon.. decided that they wanted to cut-off people from the main fight, a mere 30 yards away. That amount of BS greed needs to stop.

Ok. Wow.

First, let me tell ya that not everyone likes to party at OC with a raid. I know I sure don't. So if I or anyone else decides to get kills coming in from the rez or the map ins nearby, then we can do so. If it was an exploit you could report him and he'd get banned for doing so. Since we don't get banned for rez camping, you're gonna have to get over it. Sorry, but there are alot of escape paths from a rez circle. Esp. for a Warg. A wise user of the Wall-o'-Text once said, "You get camped at a rez circle because you allow yourself to" (or something along those lines). He was right.

Second, cutting people off from the main fight is a very legitimate tactic in war. Why would the Freeps allow reinforcements to get back to the Creeps? Might as well admit that you want easy renown/infamy farming raid vs. raid style then.

With that said, I hope those three people that were camping you continue to camp those who allow themselves to be camped.

[Sssnapdragon]

The problem is that we're all egomaniacs who think we're better than the other players, and the side we're on at any given time superior than the other side. Then we put on our rose-colored glasses and go post about our wonderful adventures full of kittens and rainbows. In turn this makes the people who were not experiencing a surplus of felines and refracted-light sour, forcing them to post angry novels about our egregarious errors in judgement the night before. Then we all have a couple drinks and chalk it up to friendly banter, and proceed to reenact the same old heterarchy the following night.

[why2020]

The problem is that we're all egomaniacs who think we're better than the other players, and the side we're on at any given time superior than the other side.

Hehe I actually have something to similar effect in my bio. Quoted from a very wise man.

[Baslin]

I wonder how long it will be before Froth's post is replied to only to address the expressed ideas that mounts are more efficient than maps and something about ninjas.

[Stanimir]

I agree with you on this. The only way I can see to impact the zone beyond an "anything goes" style is to create a style of your own and possibly influence other players with that style. There is still a profound limit on how much that influence means, but it certainly is a real dynamic of the Moors. However, that is the extent to which we can really make an impact. The Moors is a place of action, not words, and that is why our reputations as players are really what define us.

Not to rain on your well-worded parade, but you totally contradicted yourself. Action and reputation are not related. Reputation doesn't impact your DPS or who you kill in a 1v1 (action). Reputation is made by words, people's biased or unbiased opinions of you, or your biased or unbiased opinion of yourself. One thing is certain, reputations are not based in reality nor are they objective. Reputations are not truth. Hence, they can't define anything.

[Jamers]

Not to rain on your well-worded parade, but you totally contradicted yourself. Action and reputation are not related. Reputation doesn't impact your DPS or who you kill in a 1v1 (action). Reputation is made by words, people's biased or unbiased opinions of you, or your biased or unbiased opinion of yourself. One thing is certain, reputations are not based in reality nor are they objective. Reputations are not truth. Hence, they can't define anything.

Especially on Landroval, lol...

[why2020]

Reputation is made by words, people's biased or unbiased opinions of you, or your biased or unbiased opinion of yourself. One thing is certain, reputations are not based in reality nor are they objective. Reputations are not truth. Hence, they can't define anything.

Well the attempt to take an unbiased point of view is actually a bias of it's own. I could go on to say something about truths too but this isn't a thread about philosophical questions and ideals so I'll stop.

But what you said is very true otherwise. There I go saying true...

[NakedSingularity]

I read the first page and lol'd. Now can everyone just get along and play the game the way that I want you to?

[vodkacop]

About #3 on the list.

I see a lot of problems with the theory of leaving low ranked/leveld people go. And I say let them go because I have no idea what people really want us to do with them.

I'm going to kill them either way. But think about this...

How are people supposed to rank and get better without fighting others? Am I supposed to let the rank 0 creep kill me so he can get rank and we can play nice? Is he going to play nice when he gets rank 10 and so on?

People have way too many silly codes of conduct about stuff like this. I personally never concern myself with them. When I walk up to a fight, am I supposed to first; Consider if this is a fair fight that is taking place and if my contribution will make the fight unbalanced to my sides favor?, or just FIGHT!!!!

Too much to think about. lol

[CVIgdal]

Its simple really. It ain't rocket science.

1. Don't cut-off people between a rez circle and a raid vs raid. You'll make people leave which'll make both sides angry for making their style of fighting less efficient.

2. Don't participatedin 45 vs 24 blitzkreigs or similar numbers unless you want an empty moors and/or a Grams fight which is also wasting your time.

3. Don't ninja as a freep. It's also not as productive. It makes sense for creeps to do it since they powerup based off of destiny points and map-quests. Freepside just gets tokens, for calling in Goldie and for a % loot-chest chance.

4. In support of #3, who is more likely to be on defense then? Creepside. Because I still say that the horse is the more efficient method of travel in the moors, vs maps.. as maps have cooldowns and not every creep has them, or several of them.. or even have a full set of crude maps, or poor maps.. so that therefore spreads a raid out and delays it should they wish to ninja a keep unless everyone has the SAME map, allowing the freeps to then aggressively respond.

[Gillianrial]

Its simple really. It ain't rocket science.

1. Don't cut-off people between a rez circle and a raid vs raid. You'll make people leave which'll make both sides angry for making their style of fighting less efficient.

2. Don't participatedin 45 vs 24 blitzkreigs or similar numbers unless you want an empty moors and/or a Grams fight which is also wasting your time.

3. Don't ninja as a freep. It's also not as productive. It makes sense for creeps to do it since they powerup based off of destiny points and map-quests. Freepside just gets tokens, for calling in Goldie and for a % loot-chest chance.

4. In support of #3, who is more likely to be on defense then? Creepside. Because I still say that the horse is the more efficient method of travel in the moors, vs maps.. as maps have cooldowns and not every creep has them, or several of them.. or even have a full set of crude maps, or poor maps.. so that therefore spreads a raid out and delays it should they wish to ninja a keep unless everyone has the SAME map, allowing the freeps to then aggressively respond.

Can not tell if serious