Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

[Gregori]

I came from WoW, leaving very shortly after they started across server pugging, making it mandatory for the heroic dailies. WoW always had a problem with rudeness, this new pugging system escalating it tenfold. I was a dedicated raider, in a raiding Guild, and was highly gear/achievement oriented. I also enjoyed running lower instances (including lower raids) that would give me nothing I could use simply for the fun of it or to help out. I also pet tanked. I was relatively new at it, tanking just the three easiest heroics, but think I could have gone farther.

What killed it for me was End Game mentality. The pre 80s game (80 being level cap then) was completely different than the 80s game. More than once when a loot fight broke out I would simply say "forget about it" even if whatever loot it was something I needed. No piece of loot was worth the ruckus people would put up over it. I took raiding seriously but the abhorrent manners displayed in end game simply was not necessary to be a serious raider... at least in my eyes. I believe that there is never a situation that can be helped by bad manners and that anything can be said without being a #######.

That is why I quit the game. I came here, hoping this kind of attitude was not here. I was wrong... after having reached level cap here and having talked to folks who have played other mmos, I have come to believe that this attitude is present in all MMOs at end game. From what I have seen, it is not as bad here, or at least on Riddermark, than in WoW (on the 2 servers and innumerable guilds I tried).

I like to raid... I actually love raiding. I love the challenge, I love working as a team, I am one of those people who researches and discusses an instance before he tries it the first time and, if not successful, analyzes mine and my fellowship's performance afterwards to find out where we went wrong, doing more research, and going again. I think this is a blast. I love the complexity and I love expanding my skills to overcome each challenge.

However, I hate the attitude I see at endgame and, hence, remain in my Moria gear, am in a casual, helpful, and friendly kin, and have had to change what I like so I do not miss raiding and instances so much. I spent a couple of months out of the game to adjust my mindset to handle not running as many instances as I like, rather being satisfied with the content my wife and I can do alone, or with what I can do with my kin. Luckily, my kin is working on grouping and instances.

I do not know many instances, however.

I know how to play my class and was considered halfway good in WoW and am told I am good in Lotro. The thing is I do not know many instances because I have never been in a large enough kin with as many instance runs as I like. If I PUGed I would know more of the instances but I have what I call "WoWburn" and have heard of the stories of rudeness in PUGs in Lotro. I have seen people slamming others in GLFF.

So, while I love to raid, run instances, group (and am good at it), my intolerance to rudeness has ensured that I am never going to reach end game here or anywhere else... unless I reach it along with my kin.

I wonder how many are like me... good groupers/raiders who do not raid as much as they would like due to elitist attitudes.

[Ailedra]

I think the problem why people don't know how to play in groups is, that trubine has changed almost every quest in the game to be able to be done solo, so there is no reason to group up until you hit the level cap. Since MoM came out, i have rarely seen any people looking for groups for landscape questing/small fellowship quests until lvl 50+. Many people just skip those quests entirely. And when I do see those requests in the chat, the only answer is "its' solo-able, so do it solo". A shame, really!

Why is it a shame? It's a shame that people who choose to play solo/duo are able to experience the majority of the game while solo/duo?

[Aztec_Soul]

best case scenario, is get some real-life friends to play, and get through the game together...

doing this with a loremaster friend and minstrel friend, really makes completing 3-man and even some 6-man stuff that much easier and fun... it takes a while for some to get into the feel for their chosen class in groups, so there is some patience required for it... but after they invest enough time into it, they should become better through pure experience and mutual support... compare that to verbal abuse from a stranger with zero tolerance for failure...

myself, I wouldn't tackle instances with 6 people in it, for the simple fact that my laptop just can't handle that without freezing up too frequently... as a captain, everything rides on me as the fail-safe, in case things go bad for the group... and because my laptop decided to freeze up for 1min on one occasion, I inadvertently caused a wipe... or one other time, I had to leave the computer to take an important call, but that didn't end badly...

now, I consider myself a decent captain, but when things happen that are out of your control, it would be hard to communicate this to the rest of the group... the best one can do is know your computer's limits, keep up to date with gear, and really study the tooltips and skill effects to really learn when to use certain skills to develop a good button-mashing cycle... getting real-life friends on to learn together is suggested...

[Balamoor]

I have been playing this game since early beta. I haven not ran into many so called Bads, I have met people who could stand to improve and with a few polite suggestions usually do.

I have noticed however lately a few WoW rejects that have started playing and are attempting to bring the whole good/bad BS here...these folks usually are ignored and shunned because folks know it really isn't about good and bad to them... it's more about some self entitled troll giving others a hard time because the find that more fun than actually playing the game.

[warriorpoetex]

Outside of instances and dungeons nobody even talks to each other let alone groups. Everyone does their own thing. When WoW is dead all MMO's will be like this. It's what casual players wanted, an MMO they play themselves with chat facilities. It's what they got, and all future MMO's will be like this because that's where the money is for the publishers.

I hated WoW by the way but at least it's a 'real' MMO, it's not a single player game. I'll say again I love this game but it doesn't feel like an MMO at all to me. It's a wonderfully crafted game nonetheless. Great scenery, interesting classes, excellent crafting and of course... Tolkien.

Since MMOs went from Small-time to Mainstream Popular the community as a whole has changed. Many players are rude, aggressive, egoistical and make the gaming experience just plain frustrating. Take any 6 random people and maybe 2 will know how to work together; from any game. LOTRO is great in the fact that PuGs are NOT needed ... you can solo, duo (with friend or spouse), small/normal group (with Kin) and raid (Kin and Allies). Yes, there are times you meet good folks, but how often is that really? On a good chunk of the LOTRO servers now, especially post-F2P, people would rather step on your face than look at you.

The scale-enabled instance, skirmishes is a good step to balancing content for solo to raid. But, players appetites are insatiable, nothing a developer can do will keep most people satisfied for any amount of time. Product of the modern day self-centered and entitlement mentality.

[Boffadoc]

I am a big believer in the notion that this is a game, and it should be fun rather than work. I know there are people who actually slot gear into spread-sheets, so they know their ideal gear configuration. They've computed the numbers; they know what the best skills for damage/power/second, or healing/power/second are. I'm not prepared to do that kind of work to play a game.

On the flip-side, this is a game... I want to enjoy my time. There is nothing at all enjoyable about running a PUG where the Guard doesn't have any active toggle skill. "Hey, I don't want to tell you how to play your class... but don't you think you ought to have Guardian's Defense active?" "Uh... what's that?" Or how about that Mini? "If you would please turn off War Speech while being main-healer, I think that'd be great, thanks."

The one thing I've noticed, coming from WoW, was that you could be confident that someone coming from your own Guild actually had a basic handle on their class. A Tank understood the mechanics of tanking, had appropriate gear, and was ready to use their skills. I have noticed in LOTRO, as often as not it is people in my own kins that don't have a basic handle on mechanics. Of course, it is the kin's business to work with these play deficiencies.


Something I don't entirely understand is how people could not know what their skills are. Your class trainers dole skills out in one or two skills every other level. When you get a new skill, you just got to spend a few minutes reading the tool-tip, deciding what purpose the skill serves, and then slotting it into your hotbar in a way that makes sense. I also try to slot my skills in a way that's consistent across my different characters. The hot-button that summons a mount is in the same spot for all of my characters. All of my "Stance" type skills get grouped together, usually in a similar place on my skill bars. I think everyone should be able to, and responsible for, understanding what their class can do. I don't expect you to be able to write a bloody Thesis on the class, just to be able to handle your bid-niz.


Another problem I see, is that there tends to be a lack of group content. People can & should run GB a few times in their early 20s -I think you need to clear it 4 times to get enough tokens for your level 25 GB set. Level 32 comes along, and players should run that a few times to get their Eglain gear... but GA is oddly broken up. A lot of it is really difficult to complete on-level. Since the vendor with the class rewards is brutally difficult to get to, a lot of players are earning rewards they can't cash. Virtually nobody runs Fornost. I don't think anyone runs Annuminas. Plenty of people do Helegrod marks runs, absolutely no one runs it for a Full Clear.

What I'm saying is... after 20-24, there is a lack of fellowship content worth doing for the rewards that are available... so a lot of people just don't Fellow.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Something I noticed in this thread is that apparently, smoothly and successfully running through group content is not fun. It is work. Interesting.

LOTRO isn't exactly a complicated game when it comes to group content. You just need to put in a little effort to learn how your class works in a group. And that happens by experience. Trial and error. Communication. Not min-maxing and spreadsheets...

[Malephor]

especially post-F2P

Contrary to popular opinion, at least on my server, f2p has not changed this. Tbh, we lost some of our more....caustic players because of the way the game was going. Now we simply have more annoying or immature players, but much less of the people you describe.

What I'm saying is... after 20-24, there is a lack of fellowship content worth doing for the rewards that are available... so a lot of people just don't Fellow.

This, and some of the other things people were mentioning, about soloing being very easy. You can basically do anything solo and you'll win.




Regarding the necessity of PUGs, or kinship skill level, etc:thats not lotro specific. You could get away with not pugging in almost any other game, you just need to find another group of players to play with instead of pugging. And other players from your own kinship not knowing their toons is more a kinship issue than a lotro issue.

[Unique]

You know, I have to wonder about those who claim that other people are bad at playing their characters.

If almost every pug you get into fails or just fails to keep you alive then maybe it's time to look in the mirror. Maybe it's partly what you're doing wrong.

There is no school of guardians/LM/hunter/minstrel you have to complete, how is a person to know if they are playing correctly? The answer is a kind and helpful community, not one that tells people they are bad and walks away but one that gives people helpful advice or clear communication during grouping about what is expected of their role in the group and how to achieve that.

Assuming that just because someone doesn't play a character the way you would play it is wrong - there are many ways to play a character that is still the "right" way and if there is no communication as to which way the group needs then the fault lies with the group leader.

The OP has a very distinct opinion as to what a MMO is and should be and is trying to fit a game doesn't conform to those expectations into that mold - it's never gonna work. Either you need to accept what this game is and work with that to find enjoyment in your gaming time or find one that "fits" your perception of a real MMO.

[Ailedra]

Something I noticed in this thread is that apparently, smoothly and successfully running through group content is not fun. It is work. Interesting.

True statement, and a fair critique. Fun is something everybody defines for themselves. Some people find spreadsheet min/maxing to be fun. Some people find group content and communication to be fun. Some people find not having to worry about group content fun. It's no more valid to downplay somebody else's version of "fun" than it is to have your own version maligned.

LOTRO isn't exactly a complicated game when it comes to group content. You just need to put in a little effort to learn how your class works in a group. And that happens by experience. Trial and error. Communication. Not min-maxing and spreadsheets...

As noted, some people DO prefer spreadsheet min/maxing, and if they do, more power to them.

That said, while this is also a true statement, it doesn't really address people's preferences. Some people's aversion to group content has nothing at all to do with how difficult or complicated it is.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

True statement, and a fair critique. Fun is something everybody defines for themselves. Some people find spreadsheet min/maxing to be fun. Some people find group content and communication to be fun. Some people find not having to worry about group content fun. It's no more valid to downplay somebody else's version of "fun" than it is to have your own version maligned.

Threads like this show that face of the community. "Oh, that is the wrong kind of fun! You are enjoying the game the wrong way". We are incredibly prejudiced against players that do not share our view of the game.

As noted, some people DO prefer spreadsheet min/maxing, and if they do, more power to them.

That said, while this is also a true statement, it doesn't really address people's preferences. Some people's aversion to group content has nothing at all to do with how difficult or complicated it is.

Of course you can do min-maxing in LOTRO. My point was that it is not necessary at all to min-max in order to become decent in fellowships, which is what some posters in this thread seem to believe.

I don't really have anything to say against players who hate and avoid grouping. This thread is more about people who group willingly but are bad at it.

[toadriver]

Many posts here essentially mention fun vs. learning your skills. I understand that everyone has different definitions of fun, but I really believe that pretty much every single player gains some satisfaction from feeling like they just learned something and have improved. Who wouldn't gain pleasure from feeling they are getting good at something? There are thresholds that you cross, and it takes time (at least months).

I remember important things I didn't understand early on. I always selected Need because I didn't want to be Greedy. So why are they getting mad? That fellowship maneuver target icon, raid assist, etc. Years later I am still learning in small ways. It's been said a million times, but finding a kinship of respectful people is the holy grail.

Take a little time to arrange skills on the quickbars in some logical way, then every now and then, read a few and try them out. But I could just kill that guy easy? Stun him instead, play around a bit (those unused skills could also be tied to deeds).

My point is: No matter who you are, I think learning leads to satisfaction.

[hex2323]

I'm kinda stunned. After level 35, I rarely run into bad players. Most quit at like 26 when they invincible wears off.

[paintpixie]

1. I play my class in a way that suits ME. Not you, not him, not her. ME. I actually do quite well in groups, if you want me to be support. If you want me to be dps/powerfeeder/backup heals/mez master/etc... then I can actually do most of that. But NOT if you tell me I have to trait the way YOU think I should, play the way YOU want me to, and, basically, play your LM for you, because you are also tanking.

My thoughts EXACTLY. I can handle myself in groups very well for the most part. Sometimes I make mistakes, but mistakes are how we learn and they happen. It isn't the end of the world. But I play the way, *I* enjoy. I'm not going to be your alt. If you want to tell me how to "play my class", I'm going to ignore you. If you want that type of character to work a certain way, play one yourself. I'm not a robot. I play the game how I enjoy playing, not by a specific formula. And I do very well. If you don't like the way I play, simply don't play with me. Easy peasy.

Most people that I've met that were actually really BAD at grouping were people who were actually new to MMO's or something like that. Let them learn. They will learn.

[Chanah]

Most of the groups I see are wanting to run GB or GS. That's about it. As for fellowship quests - the general advice is there's enough solo stuff, so skip them.

Unfortunately, this is going to happen in any MMO that's a few years into the game and most folks are level-capped - you simply won't find anyone for the in-between stuff. So going back to most quests being fellowship or even small fellowship is apt to end up with a lot of new folks quitting in frustration and people who've been around for a while dual-boxing or getting a higher-level mate to power-level up their alts.

It is how it is. I know my class. I do NOT know a lot of the instances in game because I haven't had a chance to ever run them. Yes, you can read about them, but that isn't the same thing as actually doing them.

Forced grouping to level at this stage of the game would be suicide for Tubine, and they know it. I like that instances are scalable. But it doesn't seem to make people run them anymore often, either - except GB. And I don't see a way to fix that.

That being the case, I'm glad there's a lot of solo content. I can't imagine tackling a higher mid-level area like Forochel if you had to group for every other quest. Why do you think you never see another soul in Angmar when you're there except the odd 65 finishing off some deeds?

It's a shame in a lot of ways because we have a wonderful game world to play in and a truly compelling story. But most folks will only experience a tiny percentage of it.

[Arness]

?

Answer seems simple.

Most people do know how to play their class.... In solo. Group synergy (aggro management) skills and solo questing skills are different things. So there it is.

I agree with ^ this. I ran group content with people that were used to soloing and it was horrible. Yes, I knew my roles in the game and would play to those roles, not pulling aggro off the tank, etc. But it got frustrating, with some of the simplest group content close to impossible, and raids not happening. Then I started grouping with people who knew how to play as a group, and it opened up a whole new world for me - things that should have been simple, were. Raiding was possible, and enjoyable.

[zagreb000]

Answer to all questions.
Because level 65 is attainable without ever grouping or IM-ing one soul in-game.

Solo play is ok by me.
But you will NEVER master your class or learn to play it fully if you never group.

[Repriever]

So I've just come back to this thread and there are some very interesting responses. I get where most of you are coming from. What I don't get is people who take a comment on why people may or may not have learned how to play their class and somehow twist it into some kind of personal attack on their playstyle or even the kind of person they are. A perfect example of this below...

I am glad there are *bad* players in this game, people who are too old to have good hand-eye coordination or just dont care to be "uber leet" and only want to have some fun. I am sick and tired of "leet kids" willing to walk over anyone to get some pixel loot, the fact that every character in game is controlled by real person with feelings is beyond their comprehension.
I rather play with nice and polite than *good* player.

Besides, the content is easy enough that you can beat almost anything with not-so-perfect performance and I did all of it with lots of average players. OP sounds demanding, controlling and selfish to me.

So you're saying people who like to learn what their class is capable of have a 'leet' mentality and are willing to walk over people to get what they want and are basically rude and impolite? How on Earth did you come up with that? I did not 'demand' anything by the way and I'm certainly not controlling. If you think wanting to group with people who know what they're doing makes me selfish well okay by the sound of your post you have come to all kinds of conclusions about me knowing nothing at all about me so I guess nothing will change your mind.

This isn't the only response of this nature. Many people seem to get incredibly defensive if they think their right to solo from start to finish in an MMO is under attack. You're all missing the point. You want to solo? Fine. I get that. I mostly solo myself. You want the game to be fun? That's fine too, so do I and I accept my idea of fun may be different to yours.

All I am saying is the game is so easy there is NO INCENTIVE for any player to learn what their skills do as you can just click a couple of buttons right till endgame and you're done. The fact death does not punish you with an experience loss definitely contributes to this imo. People play better and learn their classes more if they have something to lose by dying. Fear is a great tutor.

I don't see how playing solo all the time is a good excuse for having no idea what most of your skills do but looking at the many comments complaining about clueless players in PUGs I think it's reasonable to expect players to at least know the basics of their class IF THEY WANT TO GROUP. Obviously if you intend to solo the whole time it's completely irrelevant. I'm sure some incredibly sensitive soul will pipe up complaining I am telling them what to do lol oh well.

[Drakojan]

and here's the humiliating one.. I have no idea how those 4 colored circle things work, I've had maybe 5-6 of them pop up total, as soon as I see it I hammer the red circle and hope for the best.

Just so you know, I DIDN'T laugh . Anyway, here's a link that'll help you. I basically have it memorized, and trying to get my groups (which I do alot) to do them so I can have them saved.
CLICK ME!!!!!!

Basically, Red does damage, Blue restores power, Yellow does damage over time, and Green does something... forgot what.
Hope I helped! :P
BTW, I stopped reading at your post to reply, so I don't know if anyone already answered.
EDIT: Green restores Morale.

[Drakojan]

That being the case, I'm glad there's a lot of solo content. I can't imagine tackling a higher mid-level area like Forochel if you had to group for every other quest. Why do you think you never see another soul in Angmar when you're there except the odd 65 finishing off some deeds?

Really? No one in Angmar? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! I just wasted 795 TPs then thinking that I'd be grouping with people every day, I'm not really a solo person. Games are more fun for me when I'm doing it with friends, or strangers who I eventually make friends with. I hope Silverlode has an Angmar population. If the only thing I hear in LFF is "LF DPS for Rift 10/12, I'l cry.

[Chanah]

All I am saying is the game is so easy there is NO INCENTIVE for any player to learn what their skills do as you can just click a couple of buttons right till endgame and you're done. The fact death does not punish you with an experience loss definitely contributes to this imo. People play better and learn their classes more if they have something to lose by dying. Fear is a great tutor.

Fear is a lousy motivator. For those who like those kinds of games, though, there's EVE, and a few others. It would probably make people stick to Fed-Ex and other 'safe' quests, and not do instances/go after elites/take chances - because the risk is too high. Wardens wouldn't be able to be crazy and solo all the things we solo anymore, because we'd never get to a high enough level to do them (I'm not saying other classes don't do the same thing, just we're kinda known for this sort of insanity.)

And in a game like LoTRO? A lot of folks would just quit. I don't like to think of just turning 65, doing an instance, and being instantly demoted to 62 from dying because I'd never done the instance, didn't know the tactics, or - and it's not just my computer though in my case that is an issue - there are also lag spikes. Especially in raids.

About the only groups you'd find are ones doing mail and pies in the Shire if there was a heftier death penalty. Even Turbine (I don't think) would be willing to bank on people staying if they sold a pricey 'remove death penalty' scroll from the store.

[Mathilior]

What happens when you die in LOTRO? What is the penalty? A repair bill? LOL to that. You will NEVER have an MMO where people who learn their class is the norm if there are no consequences to blindly wading through the content without a care in the world and naught but a very minor setback if you die.

Did u play Diablo 2 on Hardcore? ;_)

[Chanah]

Really? No one in Angmar? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! I just wasted 795 TPs then thinking that I'd be grouping with people every day, I'm not really a solo person. Games are more fun for me when I'm doing it with friends, or strangers who I eventually make friends with. I hope Silverlode has an Angmar population. If the only thing I hear in LFF is "LF DPS for Rift 10/12, I'l cry.

I've noticed that if you drag people there for book quests (just act helpless/clueless/plead if necessary) you can often get em to stay Everybody needs to do the Line of Death book quest (which is an easy solo) to have access to all of Angmar - that's your sales point. Afterwards, they may discover that it looks interesting. And if you're a tailor, you can get magnificent hides there (though I have no idea what it was I killed to do it ).

[EU_Orc_Bane]

The single biggest problem this game has had since the release of Moria is also the biggest money-spinner that Turbine have stumbled upon - and it's 'what if we make a MMO soloable?'

Opening up the game to solo players has brought in huge revenues for Turbine - without which this game probably wouldn't exist anymore. So complain all you want about the state of the game, but the fact is that if it was working before, Turbine wouldn't have had to fix it. Or, in other words, us Tolkien fans weren't bringing in the bucks.

Inevitably this will lead to people joing groups at end-game - having levelled to cap solo - who haven't learned the group oriented capabilties/restrictions of their class. But without the opening up of the game to soloers/casuals by Turbine, those players simply wouldn't be here; so we would possibly be facing server mergers and all the horribleness (I made that word up ) that would follow.

Your response then should be to welcome, nurture and instruct these players (in an encouraging and friendly manner) as to how they can improve themselves and the groups they join, so as to improve the overall game experience for all of us.

Or you can just kick them and be a 'tard.

[Drakojan]

I've noticed that if you drag people there for book quests (just act helpless/clueless/plead if necessary) you can often get em to stay Everybody needs to do the Line of Death book quest (which is an easy solo) to have access to all of Angmar - that's your sales point. Afterwards, they may discover that it looks interesting. And if you're a tailor, you can get magnificent hides there (though I have no idea what it was I killed to do it ).

so just beg in GLFF? Well, it worked before when I needed money for a horse, so I guess it'll work . And the Mine of Death book quest, is that 1.6.6? I think that's what people told me. I'm lv 37 and I'm starting book 5. I'm woodworker, have a Artisan Metalsmith, Tailor, and Prospector, so I can make the hides on main, and make armour on Guard. Sigs wrong, T3 Woodworker,Forester,Farmer.