Why are people so spectacularly bad at playing their classes?

[Lohi]

I hated WoW by the way but at least it's a 'real' MMO, it's not a single player game.

WoW is this way too. The difference is that WoW is a highly segregated game, casual players will never talk to elite raiders, and elite raiders never talk to anyone outside of their guild. In fact I often used to get the advice "if you join guild then you don't have to worry about PUGs and other players anymore and can just shut off the chat channels". That is I have no doubt that raiders in WoW think that WoW has few casual soloers.

In LotRO though we're all more chummy with each other and a casual soloer can be in the same kinship as a regular raider and they'll talk to each other civilly. PUGs work in this game because we're not so uptight about how good or bad the other players are and don't start bickering fights over who should and should not roll on an item.

[Lohi]

Most, not all, PUGs do not take the time to explain what is expected of group members. They just assume (and we all now what that means) everyone knows what they are doing.

This is not just the game, but players themselves are naive in assuming that everyone else is an expert or experienced. The worst part of this player community I think are the old timer veterans who are just furious that their game style is dead and then they take this fury out on the newcomer who doesn't know what aggro means.

[EU_Orc_Bane]

Yeah... I think I'm too dumb to write here. Or you may be too smart.

To the point here, grouping is not required nor encouraged in any part of the game while leveling. Again, one can be super-ubber-l33t stat-wise without stepping in an instance. All this to level 65. And the more and more solo-friendly things get, less and less people will be able to learn their classes since a part of knowing your class is to know how to operate in a group setting.

Does this make any sense?

No it doesn't. Because knowing how your class works in a group, and knowing how your class works in a skirmish, for instance, are two completely different things. You might think you are the bee's knees at playing your class in a raid and maybe you are, but it's entirely possible that some "newbie" could finish a skirmish in 80% of the time it takes you because they solo better than you.

If that was the case, who knows their class better? The answer is neither of you, but you'd both have things to learn.

One could say that the more Turbine make the game solo-able - the more YOU as a group-playing player may have to learn. But you can trade that off by explaining group-play mechanics to the newer players who have yet to experience that side of the game, in return for a tip or two on how to make that tricky pull in the tier 3 skirm that keeps killing you perhaps.

[Khafar]

And the more and more solo-friendly things get, less and less people will be able to learn their classes since a part of knowing your class is to know how to operate in a group setting.

The demise of forced grouping during character advancement in this genre is a good thing, IMO, and there are certainly a good number of opportunities to group along the way to 65 for those who love grouping. Some people form kinships organized around those activities. The disconnect, as I see it, is that the "endgame" still consists almost entirely of group-oriented activities (either instances, raids, or PvMP), so you get people who prefer to solo or duo winding up getting pushed into larger groups when there's little else to do at the level cap. Call it "endgame forced grouping".

My own solution to that has been to create characters of (nearly) all classes and all races, learning how to play those. But many people don't want to be alt-o-holics, certainly not to the degree I am . If they were to offer more viable endgame activities for soloers, I have every confidence that people would see fewer "clueless" players trying to group at the endgame. Of course, there would be fewer total players grouping at the endgame, but those who were would be the ones who really enjoy it (and are generally better at it).

Khafar

[RicardoFurriel]

No it doesn't. Because knowing how your class works in a group, and knowing how your class works in a skirmish, for instance, are two completely different things. You might think you are the bee's knees at playing your class in a raid and maybe you are, but it's entirely possible that some "newbie" could finish a skirmish in 80% of the time it takes you because they solo better than you.

If that was the case, who knows their class better? The answer is neither of you, but you'd both have things to learn.

One could say that the more Turbine make the game solo-able - the more YOU as a group-playing player may have to learn. But you can trade that off by explaining group-play mechanics to the newer players who have yet to experience that side of the game, in return for a tip or two on how to make that tricky pull in the tier 3 skirm that keeps killing you perhaps.

You're missing my point here. (waiting for your response "No, I'm not!").

Being a good player includes BOTH solo and group environment. But a raider didn't get to 65 by raiding did he/she? He/she soloed 95% of his way up there. He/she has skirmished a bazillion skirmishes to get some of the goodies that are ONLY available by skirmishing. The solo part of the component of being knowledgeable of a class is covered by the fact the game is extremely solo-oriented.

Now the grouping part is not. And that's where your opinion differs from mine. I said that because people aren't required/encouraged to group EVER until they to level cap, that part of being a knowledgeable player is missing isn't it? If one doesn't practice how to play a flute, are you gonna be putting him/her in Carnegie Hall in front of 3,000 people?

On the other hand, as I grew up, I was exposed and encouraged to do certain things. Brush my teeth before going to bed or recycle garbage. I practiced it and now I know how to to it. And do it everyday.

Got it?

[RicardoFurriel]

The demise of forced grouping during character advancement in this genre is a good thing, IMO, and there are certainly a good number of opportunities to group along the way to 65 for those who love grouping. Some people form kinships organized around those activities. The disconnect, as I see it, is that the "endgame" still consists almost entirely of group-oriented activities (either instances, raids, or PvMP), so you get people who prefer to solo or duo winding up getting pushed into larger groups when there's little else to do at the level cap. Call it "endgame forced grouping".

My own solution to that has been to create characters of (nearly) all classes and all races, learning how to play those. But many people don't want to be alt-o-holics, certainly not to the degree I am . If they were to offer more viable endgame activities for soloers, I have every confidence that people would see fewer "clueless" players trying to group at the endgame. Of course, there would be fewer total players grouping at the endgame, but those who were would be the ones who really enjoy it (and are generally better at it).

Khafar

I agree that there are very few things to do at level cap. I have said that before Enedwaith launched and people in these same forums bombarded with "Did you do all deeds? All quests? All factions reps? All crafting? How come the game is done for you?".

The fact is we had Mirkwood for 14 months. A buggy raid that after 3 months (March/April) very few bothered with. Same old LI grind. Medallion grind. Hamster wheels and what not. Summer arrived and F2P in the Fall. Enedwaith brought nothing DIFFERENT. Delivery quests/kill 10 boars/ collect their poop/ kill a 3k elite mob.

And a lot of folks adverted for this fact: the game is becoming boring. For raiding folks there was OD. Excellent. But what about everyone else? And what about for raiders when they don't raid? Raiders also solo and quest btw

It was a bad bad Enedwaith/F2P transition. But people kept blaming everything but Turbine. It's the limited budget and the limited resources. It's the incredible amount of new accounts created because the game is so popular. And the list goes on and on.

One can play so many alts and go through the same content. Hobbies should and could be created. Crafting has been ignored for the past 2 years. Changes in the UI don't count. Housing is being ignored since its implementation.

There's need of new blood.

[Leo_Dan]

It does not.

I know it does not. I was responding to a post that used the term "good" that way. For some reason some people ,like the person I was responding to, seem to believe "good" does indeed mean elitist.

[ericsbane]

I think I roleplay my Hunter really well... I cant raid to save my life though. LOL

(I hope to God someone understands my point here, and folks don't think I did not read the thread. LOL)

[hallasan]

I agree that there are very few things to do at level cap. I have said that before Enedwaith launched and people in these same forums bombarded with "Did you do all deeds? All quests? All factions reps? All crafting? How come the game is done for you?".

The fact is we had Mirkwood for 14 months. A buggy raid that after 3 months (March/April) very few bothered with. Same old LI grind. Medallion grind. Hamster wheels and what not. Summer arrived and F2P in the Fall. Enedwaith brought nothing DIFFERENT. Delivery quests/kill 10 boars/ collect their poop/ kill a 3k elite mob.

And a lot of folks adverted for this fact: the game is becoming boring. For raiding folks there was OD. Excellent. But what about everyone else? And what about for raiders when they don't raid? Raiders also solo and quest btw

It was a bad bad Enedwaith/F2P transition. But people kept blaming everything but Turbine. It's the limited budget and the limited resources. It's the incredible amount of new accounts created because the game is so popular. And the list goes on and on.

One can play so many alts and go through the same content. Hobbies should and could be created. Crafting has been ignored for the past 2 years. Changes in the UI don't count. Housing is being ignored since its implementation.

There's need of new blood.

This issue won't ever be resolved to anyone's satisfaction given at least three fundamental issues:

1. Turbine resources and priorities which overlaps at multiple altitudes but nonetheless conflicts with...

2. Player expectations. Every player has their own. There is often situational consensus of a problem but the problem identified has a different priority to each player. People can agree housing is an issue and disagree where a housing fix should be on the list of priorities.

3. Turbine will never please everyone and players will always take issue about something they have determined as important; from bugged raids to 'must have this cosmetic for my RP now' and will imply the game is broken and people will leave in droves on flying mounts.

[KuriositysKat]

What happens when you die in LOTRO? What is the penalty? A repair bill? LOL to that. You will NEVER have an MMO where people who learn their class is the norm if there are no consequences to blindly wading through the content without a care in the world and naught but a very minor setback if you die.

Let me see in another MMO I play the defeat/death penalty is XP loss that can be canceled in about 30 mins of play time or logging off that character for about 5 hours+/- . NO player debuffage that lasts for up to 1 hour which can get you killed again! NO recall to a spot can be surrounded by foes levels higher than you that results in instant defeat to get to someplace safe, NO repair bill that costs you almost all your money at lower levels. That is your MMO light soloists dream!

Most people are not bad at playing their characters, what they may lack is the knowledge of how the TEAM synergy works as it is not INTUITIVE. It took me lots of reading and talking to other players to understand the mechanics of the team synergy in this game and I will still need to ask questions/get a briefing on any of the large raids in this game.

I will tell you this if I was a new player, new to MMORPG's and read your OP I would be discouraged and maybe not try as hard to team for fear I would be dismissed "as not knowing how to play my character". Which creates the problem of not knowing the Team mechanics/synergy = perception of "not knowing how to play character" cycle ad nauseum.

[Zarador]

It's disheartening to see the posts that explain how a game should be played and enjoyed. Ironically, the IP itself best demonstrates the example of how the game should be enjoyed.

• Some enjoy the books, delving deep into the lore while others browsed the cliff notes version.
• Some went to a massive theater to enjoy the movies with friends or even strangers taking in the experience in that manner.
• Others watched the movies quietly at home savoring the experience with few interruptions if any by strangers or even friends.
• Some have gained a small taste of the world via only this game.
• Then there are those who read all the books, watched all the movies both in public and private, researched all the works that followed and immersed them self in the game.

So which person was wrong in their approach to enjoying the world of Tolkien? Yet, when we approach the game some feel it necessary to mold players into their vision of an online gamer.

To answer the question, or rather respond to the Op's analysis of the state of the gamers; some players are "bad" at playing their class because they don't have the same focus as the player making that assumption.

Some players actually feel a greater sense of accomplishment when reaching their set goals on their own and feel that a "team" is often more help than they desire or require in most cases. Read some of the posts about how necessary it is to plow through a "challenge" without failure attributed to player errors. Seems if you can do that easily, it's not all that great of a challenge.

Don Quixote in his mind conquered foes and saved damsels with his bravery and chivalry. In the beginning he felt quite accomplished. Sure, he tipped windmills, yet in his mind he was truly a hero. Yet, like those around Don Quixote some feel it necessary to point out what they feel is obvious, this person is wasting their time and not "playing right". In the end, we discover that others long for the dreams that Don Quixote lives out in his mind.

So yes, you can go out and tactically perform the right scripting in the right order and collect your reward. Some of us however enjoy a trip out into the wilderness of the game besting the enemy while fighting our trivial battles and fantasizing in the world of Tolkien. When we win, we feel elated, when we loose, we patch up our gear and try again another time with no feelings of having "done it all wrong".

Then we get to "end game" and try out some groups with the hopes of discovering a bit more of the game only to be scorned for wasting time by having too much fun. Some of us adapt, many others however walk away shaking our heads.

[RicardoFurriel]

Great spiel mate but...

I fail to understand what does Dom Quixote has to do with the ability of player X knowing what a skill does or when to press a certain button.

Honestly, what does your post has to do with developing toon skills? You know, champion, minstrel, burglar classes? And mezzes and cure poisons and interrupts?

Please advise...

[Malephor]

NO player debuffage that lasts for up to 1 hour which can get you killed again! NO recall to a spot can be surrounded by foes levels higher than you that results in instant defeat to get to someplace safe, NO repair bill that costs you almost all your money at lower levels.

None of these are true regarding the death penalty in lotro, if that is what you were referring to.

It's disheartening to see the posts that explain how a game should be played and enjoyed. Ironically, the IP itself best demonstrates the example of how the game should be enjoyed.

Great post, +1 rep for post and Don Quijote reference.

Please advise...

He was saying that most people play to have fun, and a lot of people don't care nearly as much as you or the OP about "being good".

[Hrodberht]

Outside of instances and dungeons nobody even talks to each other let alone groups. Everyone does their own thing. When WoW is dead all MMO's will be like this. It's what casual players wanted, an MMO they play themselves with chat facilities. It's what they got, and all future MMO's will be like this because that's where the money is for the publishers.

I hated WoW by the way but at least it's a 'real' MMO, it's not a single player game. I'll say again I love this game but it doesn't feel like an MMO at all to me. It's a wonderfully crafted game nonetheless. Great scenery, interesting classes, excellent crafting and of course... Tolkien.

Um, sorry, no. My kin and friends and lot's of others on Landroval talk in ooc, glff, regional, etc. People in my kin frequently ask in our allies channel, or PUG channel if anyone is doing such and such quest, or killing mobs for deeds, etc. You must just play on a small server, or not be in the right chat channels, or.....something.

[RicardoFurriel]

He was saying that most people play to have fun, and a lot of people don't care nearly as much as you or the OP about "being good".

If he didn't care about "being good", why did he even post in a thread where the title speaks for itself?

[Khafar]

I fail to understand what does Dom Quixote has to do with the ability of player X knowing what a skill does or when to press a certain button.

I said that most people play however they find fun, without regard to what some strangers find fun. He basically said that some players are going to play in a Quixotic manner by the standards of those who are all about skilled grouping. Similar, just with better literary references .

Bottom line: people should stop worrying about what other players are doing (or not doing), and just find their own fun with like-minded people in the game.

Khafar

[RicardoFurriel]

I said that most people play however they find fun, without regard to what some strangers find fun. He basically said that some players are going to play in a Quixotic manner by the standards of those who are all about skilled grouping. Similar, just with better literary references .

Bottom line: people should stop worrying about what other players are doing (or not doing), and just find their own fun with like-minded people in the game.

Khafar

I understand and agree with what you're saying. But why come to a thread where people are trying to understand why some people are not as skilled as they should while playing their class (note: not talking in ooc, not hanging out in 21st Hall. Playing a class like a minstrel, a champion, etc is the focus of the thread) and preach to everyone who's willing to listen that people shouldn't worry about others and just focus on themselves? Yet another hint of how solo-centered the game has become I guess.

Do you understand what I mean? It's like me going to an RP thread or a "Good Morning Coffee" thread and tell everyone "Hey, what do you think of the new pocket item that drops from the 2nd boss in the last part of the Instance in the middle of the Dark Forest that's adjacent to the Hidden Bridge?". I would look like an idiot to say the least.

[Hrodberht]

Of course they do, but my point was that MMO-playing Tolkien fans alone (solo or otherwise) have not been enough to keep Lotro financially viable. In order to atract/keep more players, Turbine had to make the game more accessible to casual/solo players, many of whom would not be attracted to the game by virtue of the IP alone.

Er, no. The game was doing OK prior to F2P (DDO was not but gave Turbine insight on the revenue increase possible), but they could make more money with F2P, so why not?

[Khafar]

Do you understand what I mean?

Sure. But implied in the question in the OP is that somehow, people aren't playing the game right (and should get with the program!). How can people be so bad at grouping? To me, that's like asking "how can people be so bad at spelling on internet forums?" The answer is obvious: because they haven't spent much time working to improve on it, or simply don't care: it isn't high on their list of priorities. Doesn't stop them from posting, though, nor should it. And while I'd certainly like it if everyone who posted on internet forums sounded like they'd passed an 8th grade English course, that isn't going to happen - so it's pointless to complain about it. I'll suck it up and deal with reality as it is. Their priorities are not my priorities, and vice versa.

Those of us who are solo players get defensive about that attitude because we've been dealing with it for a decade or more. If I had a dollar for every time someone had told me that I should be playing Oblivion or Fallout instead of MMOs... I'd have enough to pay for a lifetime subscription on another one .

Khafar

[Hrodberht]

I have been in um.. 4 small fellowships from lvl 1 to lvl 55, 2 of them were in the last week. I have played a ton of MMOs so I would think I've hid my ignorance well, but I know very little about grouping in this game.

Examples.. Ebbing/rising ire (stealing and gifting aggro) and aggro building attacks are a mystery to me, and here's the humiliating one.. I have no idea how those 4 colored circle things work, I've had maybe 5-6 of them pop up total, as soon as I see it I hammer the red circle and hope for the best.

The problem is everyone solos. I can't speak for other kins, but in mine everyone is a higher level, so there's no fellowship available there.. honestly Moria is the first zone where I've seen people looking for groups, the opportunity to practice your skills are few and far between in the early going.. if you can't practice you're never going to improve.

Ok, you are on Brandywine, one of the most populated (if not *the* most populated) servers. I see tons of people grouping on Landroval, people level alts/mains all the time. So while it is possible to level up solo, no one is forcing you to do so. So while I personally might cut people some slack, I don't think people on big servers can really complain when groups get a little cranked off if they don't know their class.

[Malachi108]

FUN is definitely an important part of enjoying the game. The problem is, it stops being OK when your definition of FUN is denying fun to other people. Spamming channels and selling gold for real money may be fun to you - but it's not okay. Likewise, deliberately ignoring instructions and repeatedly wiping the group may be fun to you, but it's not something OK to do.

What I also have to add is that there is a difference between less-than-perfect and outrageously bad. Here are some examples from my experience.

When you have a healing/power FM (GGGBB or BBBGG), you sometimes fail to execute it. Maybe groups actions weren't precise and resulted in GGBGB or maybe last two person failed to contribute. It's okay - it happens, we understand, even though that heal over time might have helped on the boss. But when out of blue someone adds Red - it's not okay. Especially when it's done repeatedly and the person doing it is Minstrel in need of power. That is simply unacceptable.

A L65 Player failing to have wound/fear/poison/decease pots is something that happens. Even though I myself never run with less than 25 of each, some people keep a much shorter supply or none at all. I will always share some if some effects needed to be removed at any cost and out survival depends on it - a few hundred silver cost is nothing for me. However, when a L65 Player does not know he can remove effects with pots - it's simply unacceptable. He never used any. Ever, or so he told us. Only learned because on that boss he had to remove wounds, or we would wipe.

I do not expect any L65 character to wear top-gear to succeed. If a person doesn't have Helegrod/Annuminas set and latest jewelry and instead uses quest rewards and some crafted stats - that's fine, as long as gear is within 5-8 levels of yours. If a person wears L50-ish gear, I will get suspicious and ask him to leave if he underperforms. However, when a L65 a person is wearing not 56, not 50 or 48, but 26 and 42 gear - it's unacceptable. How the hell does someone get to 65 and still wear Eglain and Annuminas jewelry rewards is beyond my understanding.

You will not be ridiculed if you don't have a 1st Age weapon at 65. Nor would you be ridiculed without 2nd Age one, but suspicious will arise, as those are incredibly easy to get. However, when a player after level 60 is using not just 3rd age LI, but a level 54 LI leveled to level 8 and none of the 80 LI points spend... to make matter worse, the LI in question was a Minstrel Songbook and he was trying to heal with it. Which might have even worked were we in GS, but we were running Dark Delvings...

To sum it up: it's okay not to know specific instance tricks - that's something leader of any PUG should explain anyway. It's okay to sometimes mess up and screw an FM or miss an interrupt - we all are Humans and make mistakes. However, it is not okay to lack any idea of what you should be doing at all or understanding of most general gameplay terms. If a Hunter repeatedly insists of pulling things before Tank, I won't even try to use aggro skills after that and will simply DPS and try to kill something before we wipe - he deserved it. But when you repeatedly say "Don't come near boss, door back closes" and someone will do it even after 2-3 wipes, you are left with 2 options: ragequit in silence or say "Guys, this isn't working" and leave anyway.

[Malephor]

If he didn't care about "being good", why did he even post in a thread where the title speaks for itself?

Because it answers the question the OP asks....?

[Hinia]

This thread is kind of inspired by another thread just below about how hard it is to find healers or why people don't want to play them. If you read through this thread you'll find one complaint after another from healers saying they won't do PUGs because of tanks who can't hold aggro, hunters and champions who can't manage their aggro and all manner of complaints about players how simply can't play their chosen class.

So... why should this be? Can I just say firstly that this has always been a problem in MMO's. Some people just won't bother to learn their class at all for one reason or another. It's not a new thing, but in LOTRO in particular I think I can explain why the problem may be more severe.

What happens when you die in LOTRO? What is the penalty? A repair bill? LOL to that. You will NEVER have an MMO where people who learn their class is the norm if there are no consequences to blindly wading through the content without a care in the world and naught but a very minor setback if you die. It's one of the things I really don't like about this game. It may be a casual players dream come true not having to think at all from level 1 to level 65 but for someone who likes to play in groups where everyone knows what they're doing it's an absolute nightmare.

I am not knocking the game here, I have come to love LOTRO despite initial misgivings about the lack of an open community but I really think it's ridiculous to expect good players in a game that pretty much plays itself and doesn't punish you when you die. I'm taking a guess here that most players in LOTRO don't even know what most of their skills do and forget about them as soon as they train them as long as they know what the important DPS buttons are.

Things have changed. Everything has changed. MMO's aren't even worthy of the name anymore they are so solo friendly. So, I guess play with your kinmates and you'll be fine but the days of wandering out into the wilderness and finding a killer PUG are absolutely dead and buried it's never going to happen again in this MMO or any other. Casual and solo play is king.

Casual and solo play is not king here, if u want that go play FPS or RPG and do whatever your heart likes and kill anything, but not here. This game like any MMO is designed in 1at place ti enoy group play like instances and raids.

Without patience or just whining here u will never enoy it.

[Nishino]

To get good you need clear, accurate feedback about how you play in comparison to others so you know where you need to improve.
The game does not give you clear feedback about how you play, and it gives no feedback about how you compare to others.

If the game gave you clear information, such as could be obtained through Recount in WoW, players would improve much quicker. They would see summaries of damage done, healing done, absorbs, buff uptime, interrupts, damage taken by source and so on. From this they would see "Hey, maybe I should pay more attention to the green stuff on the ground" or "That champ interrupted 20 times to my 3 times, I need to time my clobbers better".

Too much screaming about addons stops this sadly, so you'll see people stay ignorant about how to improve their ability to play their characters.

[DirtyDeeds2]

To the OP:

Have you tried to educate those people who you feel don't know how to play their class properly? Surely someone like you can explain what is required of them, at the same time showing a bit of tact so as not to offend them. Everybody wins that way.