Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Burglar Developer Diary

[Eliel]

•Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.

Wow, I think this is crazy! Basically you can pull one mob out of a group since you'll still be stealthed and the others won't be able to aggro anything. This will change the way a lot of groups do pulls in instances and raids I bet. It'll be very interesting to see if/how this works.

Yeah, that's my concern. How will it work? Will it work? I'm imagining Riddling one mob, his neighbor is linked and charges me anyway, and then it's a race to see if I can whip out Surprise Strike to crit on him before he hits me. Given all the issues there have been with HiPS in PVE, I have my doubts about this functioning correctly. But it'll be good if it works right.

Burglars can now enter “Mischief”, “Gambler”, or “Quiet Knife” in combat for a short period after being resurrected by a player.

Appreciated, but I still think it would be better if we could change stances after a successful FM is executed. It's not just about getting into a stance after a rez, it's also about wanting to change stances in a fight, and while I appreciate you don't want us stance-dancing willy-nilly, giving us a cost/benefit mechanism to do so would be a real improvement.

As I said when these were originally proposed, these are mostly beneficial changes, but I'm not convinced they're the *right* changes. The two things I really want: change stances on successful FM and Improved Diversion (similar to Minstrel's Distraction).

The two downsides:

Level 70: Improved Sneak – Surprise Strike and Cunning Attack will be Critical Hits when used from Sneak.
* Note: Feint and Improved Feint are not affected by this. (Testing revealed it to be too powerful.)

The Feint thing is disappointing, but at least I appreciate the admission that it was felt to be too powerful. At least now I can save Aim for when Feint is up, instead of burning it on my stealth-opening.

Counter Defence: Reduced the Block, Parry, Evade Rating debuff to be more consistent with other skills, monster ratings, and to work properly with Finesse.

I appreciate the need for balancing, but Counter Defense originally disabled a mob's BPE entirely. It was converted to a rating debuff that was said to essentially eliminate BPE most of the time. I'm concerned that it's not going to do that any more, and that the main reason seems to be a conflict with Finesse. Surely there's a way to make Finesse check after CD, so that CD doesn't have to be nerfed on mobs that don't even have Finesse.

So, yeah, mixed feelings all around.

[Braul]

If you can't tell a riddle to an animal.. tell me the last time you were at the office and leaned over to a half-orc and told them a riddle and it blew their mind so bad they couldn't answer the phone? You people do realize this is a fantasy game based on fantasy lore right?

That being said.. I gotta go check to make sure the neighbors wargs aren't pooping on my lawn...hopefully my invisibility is good enough they won't see me.

[Nyrion]

Well, these updates look nice for Burglars, very nice in fact.

However, I do have concerns on how this will affect PvMP. Wave this away as 'Creep QQ' if you like, but Burglars are already an immensely powerful class in the Moors, this update is going to make them even more so, at least if these changes aren't modified for balance.

I mean really, another AOE stun? Do you know how many AOE stuns creeps have? None. Guaranteed crits from stealth? Can Wargs autocrit? No. And now they can Riddle Weavers and Wargs too, AND do it from stealth.

Seriously, the only people who could not see this as a bad move are Moors Burgs themselves.

Ending my rant now, but my point is these changes are not good if they aren't changed for PvMP. Otherwise, they look great.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Thread is derailing into PvMP discussion, as it always happens whenever there is a burglar update. While the real issue is that they have ignored The Gambler and Mischief-maker (except the RW cooldown, thanks for that finally) yet again. I still see no reason to trait deep into either of those traitlines unless I want to cripple myself.

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

You know what, that is simply ridiculous. A lot of valid points were raised regarding how Mischief-maker was redundant and The Gambler was broken, but clearly none of them caught anybodies attention. Yes, this post is not constructive at all. I'm done posting constructive stuff when it's always falling on deaf ears. Yes, I'm frustrated. Frustrated that every other class gets the necessary (or unnecessary) attention except for the burglars. Revamp the hunters, revamp the champions. Revamp the minstrels and the captains. Polish the burglar on the rough edges. We have indeed gotten edgy over being ignored for so long.

End of rant. Looks like I'll be going 4R3Y until the servers are shut down.

[gorma_eu]

I really like those changes. Capstones out of the critical chain gives us so much more flexibility. 100% crit for surprise strike AND cunning attack is awesome. I'm glad u changed this so it also affects cunning attack. Im not disappointed by the fact that feint is no longer giving 100% crit chance for ss/ca as suggested before, this would have been just too powerful. Riddle changes are awesome, and the part i liked most!

Ah and btw: Spiders and Wargs say Hi! to Mr. Stunlock, can't wait to burst the hell out of you :>

[Braffo]

With the change of Agility being the main source of dmg, Might should be now an useless stat for Burglars, unless they want to pump up Parry. So i guess we will be able to see strong numbers of Agility/Vitality burglars. Despite not many changes (for PvE, that is, for PvP some are amazing and make Burglars even more the best class in there), this alone should indirectly help Burglars alot.

Actually I see a lot of PVE changes. The startling twist change makes burgs semi-useful in AoE situations without stepping on Champs and LMs toes. The riddle change will make pulls a lot smoother, If they can work out the mechanics. Given my experiences with skirmishes it's a big wait and see.

Seriously? OK. So now SS and CA auto-crit from stealth. This is huge. So I'm coming up on a camp of 3 mobs, all with linked aggro. Riddle one from stealth, auto-crit SS on #2, kill #2 with my crit chain, start killing up the other til SS is off CD, then IFA -> SS crit. Probably get in two kills before the riddle ends, with no problems, thanks to the stealth auto-crit.

Reread the notes, and it's not like a frontal SS crit does insane damage even from stealth. Finally, it's fairly easy to do now.

Overall some interesting changes, and for the new burgs they can throw their egg timers in the garbage leafwalkers for all.

[Nytshade617]

Burgs just got 100% more OP in the moors.

I see people complain all the time that this game is PvE based but last I checked, skills and items could be set to work differently when you go to the moors.
I PvMP more than I PvE but I agree that the devs should focus on both sides. They created this game and included PvMP so why should they not support it.
If you don't want to support it; remove it and all everyone's complaints are gone.

[Bradegor]

Actually I see a lot of PVE changes. The startling twist change makes burgs semi-useful in AoE situations without stepping on Champs and LMs toes. The riddle change will make pulls a lot smoother, If they can work out the mechanics. Given my experiences with skirmishes it's a big wait and see.

My bad, when i talked about PvE changes, (and specially comparing with Captain changes) there aren´t so many, nor so significatives. But of course, there are some interesting ones.

[0rdinary0wl]

When we first looked at the Burglar it became apparent that overall the class was in pretty good shape.

I lost all hope with the very first sentence.

[opurt]

Oi, a few more updates and burgs will be able to do an entire fight from stealth.

[SvenNiscadae]

I like the changes. Mostly excited for the stat changes, offence rating will boost significantly with Agilityx10 vs Mightx7. Having Gambler's Strike at the ready will be very handy for placing an almost instant 1min glee mez on things. I'm assuming the targets for aoe twist will also be subject to damaging gambles as well? Improved CD affecting all incoming damage, very nice. And I'm glad to be able to save my Aim for something else besides a stealth opener. Very nice job Rask.

[abrahamL]

If those changes only bother you because of PvP, shouldn't you play a game that is more PvP focused? This game is not, and will not ever be, PvP focused. There are PLENTY of games for that.

SO because you do not PvP suddenly others should leave because this game has a bigger PvE crowd than PvP? The point of any class change is to make everyone happy. Obviously Turbine feels there is a need for PvP in the game even if MP is weak, ill conceived, and ill updated. Burgs are already one of the most OP classes in the moors. Whether or not you feel we should keep our opinions to ourselves because this game isn't as PvP focused as others is WHACK for lack of a better word.

I am beginning to think as some others that this expansion will break this game for many. I have been a fan for a long time and even spoke up for radiance (not that I liked it, but I learned to live with it), but I am not liking what I see. With so many other options coming out I can see some of these ill-conceived class changes driving people away.

[Bradegor]

[Armisayl191]

SO because you do not PvP suddenly others should leave because this game has a bigger PvE crowd than PvP? The point of any class change is to make everyone happy. Obviously Turbine feels there is a need for PvP in the game even if MP is weak, ill conceived, and ill updated. Burgs are already one of the most OP classes in the moors. Whether or not you feel we should keep our opinions to ourselves because this game isn't as PvP focused as others is WHACK for lack of a better word.

I am beginning to think as some others that this expansion will break this game for many. I have been a fan for a long time and even spoke up for radiance (not that I liked it, but I learned to live with it), but I am not liking what I see. With so many other options coming out I can see some of these ill-conceived class changes driving people away.

I never once said that I don't PvMP. What I don't do is complain about PvMP balance. I just don't care. It's a PvE focused game. You cannot make a PvE and PvP game and balance around both. It doesn't work. It never will work, it never has worked. That's why MMOs have a focus, PvE or PvP. The other one is ALWAYS put on the back-burner, that's how it's always been. Play a PvP focused/centric game if you want to PvP is what I'm saying.

I enjoy PvMP, but I don't expect it to be balanced without butchering the PvE side of the game, which is where they put the most focus and content towards. Why ruin the majority of the game because the minority are upset about PvMP changes? Learn to adapt and enjoy PvMP regardless of how they make mess you over with class changes, just remember that you cannot please both. So when skill changes are made based on PvMP and they directly alter how they work in PvE, the PvErs aren't happy. In a PvE focused game, the burglar SHOULDNT receive these nice buffs because of how they may affect PvMP? The lesser side of the game?

[DobbelB_EU]

Just some feedback, it could be too late, but you could never know. It's about making a useless skill usefull.

- Make safe fall usable on horses.

[Astaldor]

Just some feedback, it could be too late, but you could never know. It's about making a useless skill usefull.

- Make safe fall usable on horses.

Meh..
Disable it in PvP atleast- it is OP.
But useable on a horse even just in pve doesn't make sense..

[socom33]

Changes look good all and all. Gambler could still use some love on Damaging gambles' DPS and the MM capstone could be buffed a few percent to justify the Burgs lost DPS by traiting MM but other than that awesome.

To all the creeps whining about Riddle from Stealth and AoE Startling Twist etc. Anti-stun pots and diminishing returns are there for a reason.

[blipp]

Mischief Maker and even moreso Gambler are in dire need of some substantial streamlining. Here's hope ( however faint ) these necessary changes were just not the topic of this diary and therefore left out.

[Overtone]

Thread is derailing into PvMP discussion, as it always happens whenever there is a burglar update.

It's not a derail, especially considering the significant upcoming Turbine Store change to the Moors.

These upcoming changes in particular:


Level 66: Improved Riddle – Riddle doesn’t break Sneak when used.
Level 68: Improved Counter Defence – Now also increases the Incoming Ranged Critical Chance and Incoming Tactical Critical Chance.
Level 70: Improved Sneak – Surprise Strike and Cunning Attack will be Critical Hits when used from Sneak.
Level 74: Improved Startling Twist – Now affects up to three targets that are affected by Tricks.

...Spell an OP disaster in PvMP. It's going to be rough for Creep players out there, especially all those new F2P Reavers...

Oi, a few more updates and burgs will be able to do an entire fight from stealth.

LOL! +Rep

[scrubmonkey]

Extremely happy with the changes. TG could use either a revamp or a buff, but it's already attracted it's die-hards that will play it regardless, so it's more or less fine for now. A good update.

[IGolbezI]

Changes are great and all, I'm just wondering if you guys remember that there is PvP in this game. That would be cool if you thought about it, maybe just once in a while huh?

[Vilda]

more crying creeps )

but i am little bit disappointed, that there are no changes for broken gambler line..

[SungXe]

and so another generic rogue Archetype in another clone mmo.


Anyway, no love for Gambler, you know the thing that makes your Burglar stand out from the crowd?
I at least would have expected a change so our Debuff Gamble could be invoked more or on multiple enemies at once?
After all that's what makes a Gambler stand out, aside from the various (unpractical) mezzes. How about 10% evade boost?

Or how about getting the line clean with whenever a gambler should have a stealth appraoch or not? Leaf walker as a BLUE Trait is just so wrong. Especially the guaranteed 90% maxed disable gamble probability. Two things define the gambler, the not so surety of Gambles and the strenght of the gambles. Most of the time we play our own minigame with applying (or failing) and upgrading the tier of the Gamble. This all must be done outside of STEALTH and the whole game idea doesn't fit the silent assassin stuff at all. Yet we get two stealth traits in our blue line, while the only one's really benefiting from it are not the Gambler players itself.

The best way to prove this miss concept is a DEBUFF gamble, now how many way's are there to start one (even just a chance too!). One is traited on a 1:30 minute cooldown which requires a trick. The other one is from stealth traited. The whole idea about the gambler is to get various effect with not a certain probability. I can't put a debuff gambit on the boss just like that, that's why it is one of the strongest debuffs. Yet i can't really apply it at all since i got only two chances with TWO traits equipped with two awkward ways of initialising it. Either i need to switch to the MM stance the whole fight for having every 2 Minutes one chance to apply it and ruin my whole gambler approach with the wrong stance or use the trait. The other way to initialise the propability of a debuff gamble would be to burgle from stealth, blowing off my HIPS cooldown.

Currently once the fight rages, we are left with an half decent DOT while we sacrificed SO much DPS for going 5Blue and pretend to be useful as DPS. And then there are so many way to put up DISABLING gambits on Bosses which are immun, and neither could we do it on certain adds, because it either takes to long or isn't reliable enough and the raids are not forgiving enough. Disabling gamble is only available through clever retort or using HIPS.

So why bring a blue Burglar along in a raid? QK does damage, MM does reliable CC. We are left with an unreliable mez and most of the time ineffective (immun) a medicore dot and and practically not applyable debuff (from stealth with burgle? seriously?).


Remove the whole "from stealth" part from gambler's traits, make our debuff gambles work with the GAMBLER stance active / other skills.
Just saying everything is "fine" with a burglar just fit's when you want a generic dps rogue 5QK +2X. Everything else is utterly broken.


And what about the "Evasion" offtank of a gambler? Did you consider the change of your game mechanics and how they affect evasion? That 5% get's to be a joke once ROI starts. (Monster (NPC) Finesse, removal of passive evasion skills, 1700 something evasion rate)?

You know if i could apply my debuff gamble (and tier it up - prolong it) properly, then people maybe would say, hey whoa we want a blue burglar, you know he can reduce the damage and attackspeed significantly of a Raidboss.

Disappointing. At least they didn't directly nerf Gambler.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

It's not a derail, especially considering the significant upcoming Turbine Store change to the Moors.

I know how this is going to impact PvMP. That isn't my point. When it comes to burglars, people are so focused on PvMP they forget about the PvE aspect of the class and the current problems with it.

Burglars are OP in the Moors (again). Who cares if Mischief-maker and The Gambler got ignored again? Doesn't matter if 2 of our traitlines are redundant, at least the other one of them is working properly, right?

[FrenyaVictoria]

Another reason not to buy RoI.

Im with Yalras on this. Im done. Its over. It is just ridiculous how you can ignore 2 of our traitlines for so long, and still call it a class in good shape.

I dont care for PvP, and for PvE these updates are just meh at best, and definitely not what we need.