Never Surrender (Part what.. Quatro?)

[Regero]

You mean something as awsome as pledge? Which will probably negate more damage that we get healed for? Or HIPS on 10 min CD? Or wisodom of the council (no power cost) on 5 min CD?

Tbh I would take an extra long CD over the 5 min penalty

The difference being that wardens > all those other classes. No I'm serious. Wardens, at any given time, have higher survivability with all of their HoT's/BPE going than the other classes unless they burn their cooldowns. Which is why, historically, wardens have not had any cooldowns. The only exception to this rule was raids, where guardian mitigation was substantially better and where, if things went wrong, we were basically doomed. This lead to wardens getting an increase in BPE, our only defense which scales into raids, and a cooldown skill which can be used when the sh*t hits the fan. Imo, it wouldn't make sense to give us a beast CD like Pledge or Hips, when we aren't really intended to be relying on our CD's int he first place.

[Solyaris]

Lol, this is funny.

2 hours ago: NS is terrible! It needs to be fixed! I will never touch this skill! Do the devs even play this class?!?!?!

*A wild Orion appears*

now: NS is so awesome! I LOVE this skill! Thank you devs! <3

Wait a minute, what?!! Its still a completly wasted still (except from maby the last min of a fight). Please tell me why this makes it so much better? It would be very nice if Orion could tell me when I should use this skill (or intended use of it). I mean, I would rather be defeated, rezed and have a snap-aggro skill like engage, then use this skill to prevent the same death. What worries me aint the skill itself, but rather that this skill get so much attention and also thats it our 5-set bonus. Its also against the warden way of playing, as Ive staited before.

If I understand this correctly, this is supposed to be our pledge, our LS, our touch'n'go, but its not, cause the downsides(!) is just way to big.

If anything, I would rather see the skill removed (as its not a gambit), and give us an "engage" with very high power cost (but as a 5 gambit).

[LtDiablo]

I still find our 5 set bonus to be very sad and here's why. In Theory it sounds "OH EM GEE godmode could be reached". But you must remember, the heal only procs if you reach 5% health. After a 75% heal, if you're back down to 5% in another 5 minutes that quickly then something is wrong. You're likely going to die, because what ever is hitting you is probably going to kill before the CD is up anyways. OR, you've been healed, your Healer has woken up now and now the content is done anyways. It still is likely going to be a one time use emergency skill anyways. Oh joy, you have 5 less minutes to wait before your next pull. Less time to make that sandwich.

[Tolfast]

. Imo, it wouldn't make sense to give us a beast CD like Pledge or Hips, when we aren't really intended to be relying on our CD's int he first place.

I'm not asking for a skill like pledge I just used it as some sort of example. Like I said I would accept a longer cool down if they took away the penalties. There is no way I am going to need this every ten mins anyway

[Solyaris]

I still find our 5 set bonus to be very sad and here's why. In Theory it sounds "OH EM GEE godmode could be reached". But you must remember, the heal only procs if you reach 5% health. After a 75% heal, if you're back down to 5% in another 5 minutes that quickly then something is wrong. You're likely going to die, because what ever is hitting you is probably going to kill before the CD is up anyways. OR, you've been healed, your Healer has woken up now and now the content is done anyways. It still is likely going to be a one time use emergency skill anyways. Oh joy, you have 5 less minutes to wait before your next pull. Less time to make that sandwich.

I was under the impression that the debuff was removed if you where out of combat. Else youll have another reason why not to bring wardens to raids.

[Lestache]

The difference being that wardens > all those other classes. No I'm serious. Wardens, at any given time, have higher survivability with all of their HoT's/BPE going than the other classes unless they burn their cooldowns. Which is why, historically, wardens have not had any cooldowns. The only exception to this rule was raids, where guardian mitigation was substantially better and where, if things went wrong, we were basically doomed. This lead to wardens getting an increase in BPE, our only defense which scales into raids, and a cooldown skill which can be used when the sh*t hits the fan. Imo, it wouldn't make sense to give us a beast CD like Pledge or Hips, when we aren't really intended to be relying on our CD's int he first place.

My Warden has hobbit flop, which I can use in a HIPS-like manner. (I'm still waiting for the chance to use it while tanking some big boss mob, just to hear the panic as the mob makes a beeline to the healer or strongest DPSer).

[Orion]

Oops, I lied...I forgot that I dropped the duration on the debuff to 120 seconds.

[Drglory]

I still find our 5 set bonus to be very sad and here's why. In Theory it sounds "OH EM GEE godmode could be reached". But you must remember, the heal only procs if you reach 5% health. After a 75% heal, if you're back down to 5% in another 5 minutes that quickly then something is wrong. You're likely going to die, because what ever is hitting you is probably going to kill before the CD is up anyways. OR, you've been healed, your Healer has woken up now and now the content is done anyways. It still is likely going to be a one time use emergency skill anyways. Oh joy, you have 5 less minutes to wait before your next pull. Less time to make that sandwich.

This last part worries me the most. Why not keep the debuff and make it permanent until combat ends (see fight on for champs). That way we can continue our raid/instance whatever without hurting the group in the slightest

[Solyaris]

I'm not asking for a skill like pledge I just used it as some sort of example. Like I said I would accept a longer cool down if they took away the penalties. There is no way I am going to need this every ten mins anyway

Agreed! And I still think there is no dev that has a warden as main. They would have understod the issue. Im not saying they arent playing the class, just that they dont have it as their favorite or main class.

[Tolfast]

120 sec is a little better I guess but still hurts.

The way I see this skill now then is popping in last phase of a boss fight, that way if it procs losing the masteries and HoTs won't hurt

[Regero]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh yeaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!

[Lestache]

Oops, I lied...I forgot that I dropped the duration on the debuff to 120 seconds.

Nice! That must not be in the current beta build, as my quick test last night showed a 5 minute debuff still.

Solyaris, I believe that the debuff persisted out of combat when I did my test last night. Perhaps Orion may change that, too, but then hobbit Wardens could potentially exploit flop to remove the debuff.

[Solyaris]

Oops, I lied...I forgot that I dropped the duration on the debuff to 120 seconds.

Still think its to long (I suggested a change to 1m in another tread), but it defenetly makes it way more useable! Maybe a legacie/trait to reduce it even further?

[EDIT]
Instead of -5m CD as 5set-bonus, what about removing the debuff altogether, as the 5-set bonus? or reduce it with 90 sec or sumthing

[Regero]

Agreed! And I still think there is no dev that has a warden as main. They would have understod the issue. Im not saying they arent playing the class, just that they dont have it as their favorite or main class.

Oops, I lied...I forgot that I dropped the duration on the debuff to 120 seconds.

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

[Drglory]

Oops, I lied...I forgot that I dropped the duration on the debuff to 120 seconds.

Much better. See we wardens are not so hard to get along with. Just don't forget your suit of armor when you venture into our forums

[Solyaris]

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

Hehe^^

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[grinko.at]

120s of no masteries and no heals is still way too long. Masteries are essential for the Warden to function.

Also, it penalizes shield traited Wardens too much.

Replace the penalty with something that doesn't cripple us into uselessness. A +100% builder power cost, -20% inc. healing, anything that can be overcome with help from the raid like dedicated LM attention.

Masteries are essential, Orion. Don't take them away, even for 2 minutes. I'd rather take the 30min CD than the penalty.

[greendragoon100]

That's still two minutes we have to survive with all our tanking skills gimped. Orion, why are you so attached to these penalties that you're willing to rewrite everything about this skill to protect them?

[LtDiablo]

I was under the impression that the debuff was removed if you where out of combat. Else youll have another reason why not to bring wardens to raids.

Even if that is true, it still doesn't change the value of this skill. Say the debuffs do wash and you enter combat immediately, the skill might CD before you need it again, but then you're right back to my previous post, you use it once, you either recover or you die again. Then you roll on.

Basically in a nut shell here is how I see it. Either you don't need the skill, because you/your group is good enough, so it's useless and in conclusion now so is our 5 set bonus OR you're relying on this skill to save you, because of the result that you/your group sucks in which case it probably will only prolong the inevitable anyways, because in concert the skill now makes it much harder to tank and we've already established that by using the skill something was already wrong to begin with and now it's just compounded more problems..

What ever happened to this skill's true purpose of being a one time shot to recover aggro from death :/

[Regero]

He's actually done that before too lol. Geoboy said that Orion had forgotten about us and wasn't going to give us anymore attention. Literally a few seconds later Orion appeared, told us about our three brand new skills, and then vanished again. was an awesome o_0 moment

[Regero]

This is NOT a double post! Weird forum lag is going on and my posts are getting all pushed around in odd ways lol.


The purpose of this skill as I see it is to react, primarily in raids, to events currently beyond our control. If a guard gets devastated, they have buttons to push to save them. If we get devastated, we need to pray our healer is awake and we are almost completely powerless to save our own hides. This new skill addresses that.

As to the penalties, I would call them appropriate at this point. 2 minutes is not as much as you are making it out to be. Life without HoT's in a raid isn't that significant, our HoT's don't help much there anyway, that's why we have our new BPE. And when you would use this skill is also probably towards the end of the fight when things are really getting dangerous, in other words, when you already have a sexy aggro lead established. All you would really need to do at this point is keep defensive buffs up and throw out an occasional PB. That's very feasible even without masteries.

Outside of raids our inherent defenses and HoT's can and do provide enough survivability for us to be fine and not need to use this skill, as they do now. The only time I see myself, or anyone, using this skill outside of a raid is in the ettenmoors to survive and escape ganks.

[LtDiablo]

With the 2 minute debuff, I accept the skill a little bit more, but the skill itself was never my main concern with my posts. It was directed towards my lackluster excitement regarding the 5-set bonus. Using your same example, you'd have to predict that you're about to get devastated, otherwise hope it doesn't kill you and then use the skill, but now you have to hope that at minimum in the next 5 mins you don't get devastated again.

In all honestly I don't particularly like the whole concept of this setup anyways and I think this stems from my time as a Runekeeper healer. They have a lot of skills that work based on chance and predictability. I've had too many backfires where I can't stand it. As an example, I put "Do Not Fall This Day" on our Guard, cause his health was getting dangerously low, it was at 4%, but then the mob missed a bunch and he rose back to 10%, then right at the skill wore off, he got critted and died, but the skill wore off by then.

So I guess where my bitterness comes from regarding this whole situation is I hate luck in any game, FPS, RTS, MMO, whatever. I want to be in control of my character and be able to control what happens to me or at least have 100% control over my preventions of the unknown. I know I'm going to be facing multiple mobs, I know ahead of time I'm going to use leeches to lessen my burden of taking damage. With this skill it's always going to be a "what if" situation, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

Maybe I'm just doomed to never like this skill and the bonus.

[Solyaris]

200 conviction
200 restoration
200 celebration of skill
150 safeguard
50 Perservance

You can keep them all up, if you use masteries and have a solid aggro lead

800/3 sec ~270 Hps (even higher if you have 20% SoW, which you normaly have)

170-200 (conviction) * 5 for fellowship = another 300 Hps
about 570 Hps, or about 60-70% of a minstrel healing output in a normal raid.

This will change tho, since youll focus more on keeping avoidance up, but still, its far from insignifigant in raids. My build and playstyle are built around HoT tho, so I might use it more then the avg warden.

[Evjen]

I have to agree with Regero here. Obviously the 5 minute penalty was way too much, I don't think we need to discuss here. But with the 2 minute penalty I can live, and here is why: Looking at the new functionality (OMGWTF-Heal when under 5% morale instead of aggro-leach after death) the No-Masteries-Penalty doesn't strike that hard as it did before. The longer the battle lasts, the more aggro we build, usually more than any damage dealer could possibly dream of taking away from us. So we don't need the masteries to work on Aggro, as precise blow should be enough to maintain it. So what is there to do? Without HoTs, we only need to maintain our BPE. And I think this is manageable even without masteries.

The only problem I see - aggrowise - are encounters with aggro reset (The Blind One in Phase 1 for example...). Bad Luck if the aggro reset strikes while you are under NS penalty, but yeah... what are the odds, hm?

Hope you understand my gibberish. Lack of practice when it comes to actually USING the english language instead of just understanding it :P

[Malephor]

I wish my conviction CoS and safeguard healed that much.

Edit:I don't see how not having masteries hinders threat gen. You can't keep up conviction(but w/o HoT ticks, why would you?), so our next best threat is PB. Masteries don't really speed up PB spamming...