Five New Instances in Update 5

[Lohi]

We'll see how many deeds there are in ROI to advance virtues, and how painful they are relative to pre-store virtue advancing deeds.

The eregion ones are pretty straight forward. Plus all the old deeds that existed before F2P are still there! Virtue cap will raise to 12 and you can easily get the ones you want up to 12 without ever visiting the store, and you can do it without devoting excessive time to grinding. Just to the quests and instances in Moria and you will get a nice chunk of deeds done. If there were a conspiracy here you would expect to see older deeds being changed to require more effort or something.

[Southpa]

30 dollars are worth 3-4 beers at a pub (where I live). I'm pretty sure it will take longer to get to lvl 75 then it will take to drink 4 beers a Friday evening.
Why would a company make any content if they didn't make any money? If you like something then support it..

Like cirrhosis for example?

Seriously, though. People spouting their negativity (such as myself) use it as a vehicle to tell Turbine they've done better, that they can do better and that we expect better - and we typically give examples of how. As I've said before, rational expectations are not invented by the customer/user - they are created by the maker.

• We continue to support it because we have years invested here.
• We continue to support it because we have fallen in with groups of people we enjoy playing with. If we venture to another game, we won't all make that journey together.
• We continue to support it because we feel there is still a future.

I find negative feedback a much more valuable tool than positive feedback. Don't tell me what I'm doing right because I'm already doing it. Tell me where I'm lacking and I have something to improve upon to make a better whole. If I'm not meeting your valid expectations (based on your experiences with me), that's my failure not yours. And so it goes...

[Lestache]

The eregion ones are pretty straight forward. Plus all the old deeds that existed before F2P are still there! Virtue cap will raise to 12 and you can easily get the ones you want up to 12 without ever visiting the store, and you can do it without devoting excessive time to grinding. Just to the quests and instances in Moria and you will get a nice chunk of deeds done. If there were a conspiracy here you would expect to see older deeds being changed to require more effort or something.

To add to this, while a few virtues will lose a point or two from their current value on Live due to some of the Moria changes, a few other virtues will gain a point or two as a result. The net difference is zero, as I can attest as someone with all virtue-granting deeds complete - I lost five points total, but also gained five points total.

[Arbalister]

I find negative feedback a much more valuable tool than positive feedback. Don't tell me what I'm doing right because I'm already doing it. Tell me where I'm lacking and I have something to improve upon to make a better whole. If I'm not meeting your valid expectations (based on your experiences with me), that's my failure not yours. And so it goes...

Of course, since you were in beta, that was the appropriate place to put that feedback, and the likeliest place for them to see it.

[Lohi]

i've seen it and nothing in this update justifies the price of 30 dollars sorry it doesn't

Don't buy the pre-order then. Full price of expansion will probably be less than that, or free if you use TP and you have them already (well not free, but at no extra charge for subscribers if you saved up).

From quick look at Dunland map that I've seen it seems similar to Mirkwood in size even w/o Isengard. I don't know how much longer it will take to play, given than it's 10 levels instead of 5. I do know that some players hit level cap in Mirkwood in a week, and I hit level cap before finishing up half of Mirkwood. It was definitely a "mini expansion" but that was ok because Moria was still a viable end game. When they add the 5 instances to RoI this will be more than what Mirkwood has. So it will be 5 instances and 1 raid for max level compared to Moria's 6 instances and 1 raid that it had at launch.

[Lohi]

I find negative feedback a much more valuable tool than positive feedback.

Many players find negative feedback a reason to leave a game too, some use the forums to decide if they want to start a game. I give positive posts because I want newcomers to know the fact that this game is not as awful as some imply it is. I also want to give the realist approach to not spend your money if you don't know what you're getting, which is why I think F2P and Premium are good ideas and pre-ordering sight-unseen might not be.

[Southpa]

Of course, since you were in beta, that was the appropriate place to put that feedback, and the likeliest place for them to see it.

You think the devs were any more active in the Beta forums? lol
Betas exists for bug-fixing and that's about it. General feedback works no better there than it does here.

This is a tried and true fact for the most part, as any Beta vet can attest.

Many players find negative feedback a reason to leave a game too, some use the forums to decide if they want to start a game. I give positive posts because I want newcomers to know the fact that this game is not as awful as some imply it is..

I've never ever implied this is an awful game. If I did, I'd be a big hypocrite because I'm still playing it.

And if someone is going to leave a game over something I say, well.... that's a bit much and doesn't give the average consumer much credit.

I'll give positive feedback when something wows me, but if someone were to just look at my join date and realize I've been here pretty much from the beginning, it may offer some perspective, eh? I think so.

In any case, this paid expansion has taught me that luring more players to the game doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get more of what I want out of the game anyway. FtP brought 3-5x more revenue than they were getting before. One would think that might lead to an expansion with "somethings for everyone." It didn't at all. It lead to the most underwhelming paid release to date. I seem to have misplaced my rose-colored glasses....yet somehow I remain invested in the future, even if I choose not to put a positive spin on most things.

[zathscorp]

You *can* get a slightly different deal - you can choose to subscribe. You're still going to pay $15 a month for access to the servers, only now you get a rebate in the form of about $6.00 in TP.

Where in the Turbine Store can I convert TPs into dollars?

Turbine has already shown us that they don't consider TPs to have a direct cash value when it comes to expansions.

[Arbalister]

You think the devs were any more active in the Beta forums? lol
Betas exists for bug-fixing and that's about it. General feedback works no better there than it does here.

Really? Having been in *every* other Turbine beta since 1998, I find that hard to believe.

[Southpa]

Really? Having been in *every* other Turbine beta since 1998, I find that hard to believe.

I can't help what you find, but I've been in every LotRO Beta since Moria and the track record is not good. Cripes, not even for bug fixes.

But even so, if you knew as much about Beta as you claim, you'd know that by the time Beta hits, they aren't going to do much more than fix bugs. At least in LotRO. Gameplay will not change. Mechanics will not change. Systems will not change. Content will not be added. Content may be subtracted. If there is a loud enough outcry (as in F2P open Beta), they might throw some numbers on lackluster end-game gear (but that's happened essentially once). No, that isn't the place for feedback because they even tell you that the best (and often only) way to get their attention is to submit bug reports in-game.

[Arbalister]

I can't help what you find, but I've been in every LotRO Beta since Moria and the track record is not good. Cripes, not even for bug fixes.

But even so, if you knew as much about Beta as you claim, you'd know that by the time Beta hits, they aren't going to do much more than fix bugs. At least in LotRO. Gameplay will not change. Mechanics will not change. Systems will not change. Content will not be added. Content may be subtracted. If there is a loud enough outcry (as in F2P open Beta), they might throw some numbers on lackluster end-game gear (but that's happened essentially once). No, that isn't the place for feedback because they even tell you that the best (and often only) way to get their attention is to submit bug reports in-game.

No, systems won't change, and only the most severe bugs - gamebreakers - or exploits will get fixed. But the beta forums are the place for feedback. There are things that *can* change - like the barter costs of S4Ms. Example? Echoes of the Dead, numbers of relics for melds changed, cost of some aspects changed, and even some relic stats changed. And, again, those are the forums for direct input to the devs...as well as talking to them directly in game. They very certainly *do* listen to feedback. That doesn't mean something is going to instantly change, and you shouldn't expect it to. Posting everything you have a negative opinion about, out here, in the public forum only gives the impression that it's nothing more then an attempt to stir up resentment, and force them to react. Especially when you then announce that you're in beta, as soon as the NDA lifts. It's really not a good credibility move.

[FyreBrand]

I can't help what you find, but I've been in every LotRO Beta since Moria and the track record is not good. Cripes, not even for bug fixes.

But even so, if you knew as much about Beta as you claim, you'd know that by the time Beta hits, they aren't going to do much more than fix bugs. At least in LotRO. Gameplay will not change. Mechanics will not change. Systems will not change. Content will not be added. Content may be subtracted. If there is a loud enough outcry (as in F2P open Beta), they might throw some numbers on lackluster end-game gear (but that's happened essentially once). No, that isn't the place for feedback because they even tell you that the best (and often only) way to get their attention is to submit bug reports in-game.

Total rubbish. The previous beta they changed how stat tomes were distributed. They changed how mounts were sold in the store. There have been class changes. Player feedback is taken into consideration.

The one thing that seems to have changed is how beta testers have used their inside knowledge to come to the regular forums to spread negativity and discontent. Very classy.

[Southpa]

Total rubbish. The previous beta they changed how stat tomes were distributed.

Well that's nice. Exactly what did they change cause I didn't even notice.

They changed how mounts were sold in the store.

Not on my radar, sorry. This is pretty much a nonfactor anyway. I don't care what they do with cosmetic things and it hardly impacts the game on really any level whatsoever. If this is your idea of valuable feedback resulting in positive changes....well, OK?

There have been class changes.

Yeah, maybe pointing out bugs that need fixing. Even those are often not fixed before launch.
I'd like an example of a significant class change that was made solely due to player feedback in Beta and changed before things went live. You'll only need one hand to tally them, though I probably shouldn't say it's never happened. And for what it's worth, I have given props more than once to the devs for opening up to us regarding upcoming class changes. But even so, many of them appear so blatantly positive, I doubt they'd be scrutinized regardless. We are entering the era of OP....just wait and see.

But the point is, most issues that are brought up are indeed neglected and many bugs stay live for months....many issues are seemingly ignored or cast-off until annoying complainers such as myself repeatedly call foul on the sorry state of certain things. I'm sure you've seen it yourself. More than once.

The one thing that seems to have changed is how beta testers have used their inside knowledge to come to the regular forums to spread negativity and discontent. Very classy.

You think for yourself and I'll do the same, OK? I'm not telling anyone what to think, but rather what I think. I don't come here to appease you. I'm playing the game, right? Must mean I think the game is still worth playing. I don't post to change anyone's mind. They can think and see for themselves. They don't need you to tell them everything's alright and they don't need me to tell them what's wrong.

If this xpac wasn't so meh, I wouldn't take the stance I have. Speakin' out, bro. Don't like it? Don't read it.

[Inkfinger]

Update 5 will be available before the end of the year.

Heh. Well, you SAY that...

[IGolbezI]

^^^^^ lol. who cares. onto star wars!

[epochofwar]

People are just impatient now-a-days. Instances are coming. Could be worse.

[Wayshuba]

People are just impatient now-a-days. Instances are coming. Could be worse.

I think LOTRO players are probably one of the most patient groups in MMOs. Consider the long content droughts since Moria many have endured through and that it has been 21 months (almost two years!) since Mirkwood (the last expansion). To have almost two years since last expansion and then get something so shallow that it isn't much better than a quest pack?

I think the real problem is that many have finally run out of patience.

[D3str0yer]

People are just impatient now-a-days. Instances are coming. Could be worse.

So almost 2 years since our last expansion... Are lotro players impatient!?

[epochofwar]

So almost 2 years since our last expansion... Are lotro players impatient!?

No. I was referring to the Instances.

[Warriorpoetex75]

Not really surprising if it's pieced out in the LotROStore. Almost everything else is too.

It's not being pieced out in the store. This is basically part of the xpac but it's being released late because it isn't ready yet. You have to buy Isengard and that's it. It's the same with ANY ZONE. You can't do the instances in a zone unless you buy the zone. So you won't be able to access these new instances in Isengard unless you buy the Isengard xpac. Makes PERFECT SENSE.

If they had insisted on having it released with the xpac, we would be waiting even longer to get to Isengard.

You don't HAVE to preorder Isengard to get access to the instances when they are finally added. You can buy Isengard from the Lotro Store after the xpac goes live.

[Warriorpoetex75]

Don't buy the pre-order then. Full price of expansion will probably be less than that, or free if you use TP and you have them already (well not free, but at no extra charge for subscribers if you saved up).

Sapience said in a much earlier post that Isengard will cost 'North of MoM'. Which means it will cost more than 2495 TP. Which means it will technically be more that $30. Considering how HUGE this xpac is (And I don't refer to just the regions) it makes sense to be at least the price of MoM.

[Warriorpoetex75]

A better comparison whould be to compare it to the Moria or Mirkwood expansion packs. And when doing this you cannot include Update 5 because they DID NOT SAY THESE WERE PART OF THE ISENGARD EXPANSION!!! Read the announcement, it is just an annoucement of the upcoming update, it does not say it is part of the RoI expansion - that is an assumption on anybody's part who is arguing otherwise.

They were supposed to be part of the xpac. But to get the xpac to us quickly they postponed their release. They aren't charging a separate price for them and you can't access them without buying the xpac. Sure sounds like part of the xpac to me. You are just splitting hairs for the sake of arguing.

And I've seen the new regions. They're bigger than you think they are. They also each have their own maps. Dunland is about the size of Bree-Land. Isengard is about 1/2 that size(maybe a little bigger). And yes the gap isn't overly large but it isn't supposed to be. Read the books sometime. Technically, it IS 3 regions. Again, you're just splitting hairs. Be happy we're getting anything at all. They could have decided to release each section separately in the store and charged way more.

The xpac isn't just about new regions. There's A LOT of changes happening. Stats, Virtues, Classes.. I could go on and on. "An expansion pack, expansion set, or supplement is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game or video game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, and/or an extended storyline to a complete and already released game." This xpac meets the requirements to have the title 'Expansion Pack'.

[Khafar]

But even so, if you knew as much about Beta as you claim, you'd know that by the time Beta hits, they aren't going to do much more than fix bugs.

Depends on A) how much it takes to make the change, and B) just where in the alpha/beta cycle they are. I've been in nearly every NDA program Turbine has run in the past 12 years except for Palantir (don't have enough time for that anymore), and they've made tons of changes based on our feedback. However, like I said... in mid-late beta (and on Bullroarer before an update) it's mostly about fixing bugs and load testing. Alpha & early beta (and private testing programs running for live updates) can make more of a difference.

There are limits, of course. Some people told them that LIs needed a "do-over" pretty early on in MoM testing, but feedback was mixed, and it was far too late even then to rework such a large system. So there were some tweaks made, but nothing huge. And of course, some of those same early complaints persist to this day. Redesigns on non-trivial systems won't ever happen in alpha/beta. Modest rework can and will, depending on the size of the system and the amount of time left until ship.

A recent example: bank vault changes. The initial effort in the F2P beta was loathed by most people there - there was no way to manually arrange anything, which was a big problem. The developer went back and made a good round of changes to help fix its deficiencies, making them substantially better in time for that launch. Then some more changes were made in the next update, ones that couldn't fit into the F2P launch, and they're better still. Not perfect, by any means, but they most definitely made a lot of changes based on our feedback.

Khafar

[Lomeloth]

It's not being pieced out in the store. This is basically part of the xpac but it's being released late because it isn't ready yet. You have to buy Isengard and that's it. It's the same with ANY ZONE. You can't do the instances in a zone unless you buy the zone. So you won't be able to access these new instances in Isengard unless you buy the Isengard xpac. Makes PERFECT SENSE.

If they had insisted on having it released with the xpac, we would be waiting even longer to get to Isengard.

You don't HAVE to preorder Isengard to get access to the instances when they are finally added. You can buy Isengard from the Lotro Store after the xpac goes live.

You state this as if it were all facts, but it's only a set of assumptions on your part. We won't know how anything is configured in the Store until Turbine tells us (or it appears there without a separate announcement).

[Lomeloth]

. Be happy we're getting anything at all.

Seriously?

The xpac isn't just about new regions. There's A LOT of changes happening. Stats, Virtues, Classes.. I could go on and on. "An expansion pack, expansion set, or supplement is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game or video game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, and/or an extended storyline to a complete and already released game." This xpac meets the requirements to have the title 'Expansion Pack'.

Most of the changes you mention come regardless of whether one purchases the expansion or not. Stats, virtues, level cap*, classes - all free. Not tied to the expansion purchase, only to the expansion timeline. The two are not the same.

ETA: *I cannot find an official source for that, so I retract it. I leave it in place for reference for subsequent posts.