Kelsen: What did High Ranks do to you?

[Gretolas]

The -25% npcs and the 'field promotion' are the only nice changes in pvp tbh. Wondering why freeps don't get something similar with the last one.

[Prancey]

That is so stupid! You don´t understand the point!

You earn ~400.000 points to become Lieutenant and have all your skills, okay... I can handle that! Than again ~230.000 points for +1-2% more damage... again ~380.000 points for 1-2% more damage... again 600.000 points for 1-2% damage... AGAIN 900.000 points for 1-2% damage... AND F***** AGAIN 1.200.000 points for 1-2% damage! And NOTHING else except for a skin and 3/5 not existing, 2/5 weak and ridiculous skill improvements... there is NO reason to make so much points for these laughable things! THAT is the point! And because of this I´m extremely pissed... I worked on rank 13 to have finally my last active skill... but that was for nothing because everybody get this skill now and I (and all the other high ranks) get nothing for the extra 3.300.000 points!

Seems like you just play for points instead of fun. I play for fun, and now that I have the ability to get all my skills, I can fully enjoy it.

I highly doubt Turbine is going to change this, so you can either adapt, or quit.

[Spacmanbobr]

Honestly, I have to admit I have no creeps above rank 8 before I say this, but:

Making people have to get rank 12+ to get some skills that would be basic for freep classes is dumb. Very, very few players will even get to rank 10. I think really, all traits should also be moved down to rank 12 and below. This is all for balance's sake, as freeps are still stronger in Isengard when they are geared out and know what they are doing. While I don't agree with the principle of pay to win, I know on my reaver and defiler I'll be buying the rank 15 traits. Why? Because I'm NEVER going to get that high. It's an astronomical time investment.

These traits, if Turbine does remove the pay to win aspect, should be moved down to rank 10-12 at least, and what creeps get at rank 12+ are extremely dramatic passives, like 25%+ to every stat per rank once you hit 12. It's just too much of a grind to have usable skills and traits beyond rank 12. The reason I play PvMP is for fun, and I'd rather be effective at a decent rank like 8 then have to go and play for hours on end to reach an effective rank. I understand the whole "carrot on the stick" concept, but still, PvMP is meant primarily for fun, not for progression. For freeps that's all it is, they don't get better with ranks beyond rank 9 once they unlock all the gear.

[Mr_Pedantic]

For 1 thing we get and you start to QQ. Have you seen all of the freep changes? Imagine a regular rank 0 with no skills. They are destroyed the second they step out of grams atm, after RoI, they would die by breathing the same air as freeps.

A silly creep store=100% better than no update at all.

You could think that this is the first step to a series of updates and improvements, but no, all you want is to QQ because they're touching your precious e-peen. Grow up. This is a game.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it?

It's a time vs reward aspect.

Sure a rank 0 creep stands no chance, but hey! don't worry! you can buy everything in store before you even do any PVP, surely you see an issue with that?

And as for 'first steps to a better update' this is PVP, we haven't had a proper update in over 3 years, so excuse me while I completely ignore your point.

Fact is, the changes are small, and they've completely removed any incentive to rank up, on top of everything being available at 400,000 renown/infamy (9x less than the cap I'll remind you) but now you can buy everything in store, it's completely and utterly destroyed the rank mechanic for creeps, these battlefield promotions are so meagre that they're not an incentive, take my rank 9 warg for example, if I get rank 10 I get what? 2%? 1%? more morale and damage.. that's barely noticable, assuming I have 10k~ health at 75, I'll see an increase of 100 morale... woopty freaking doo.

Honestly, I have to admit I have no creeps above rank 8 before I say this, but:

Making people have to get rank 12+ to get some skills that would be basic for freep classes is dumb. Very, very few players will even get to rank 10.

I stopped reading there considering there's 143 rank 10's on Snowbourn, and we're not even the most active PVP server, so lets assume for a minute, that the average is 100 rank 10's per server over 26 servers, so you're saying 2,000+ rank 10's isn't a lot?

[Prancey]

1. Because creeps can just be rolled straight from the go - they don't need to grind through what is now 75 levels plus whatever it takes to gear them up.

So apparently getting to what would be now, level 75, and gearing up takes as much time as getting a creep to rank 15, eh? LOL. I think not.

Do you honestly want to spend years and years playing this game just to get all your skills? (Assuming you play a creep)

[Mr_Pedantic]

So apparently getting to what would be now, level 75, and gearing up takes as much time as getting a creep to rank 15, eh? LOL. I think not.

Do you honestly want to spend years and years playing this game just to get all your skills? (Assuming you play a creep)

Getting to 75 and fully geared will take approximately the same time as it takes to get rank 7, which is about the point where creeps (wargs and reavers in perticular) can easily stand toe to toe with freeps.

It's a hell of a difference compared to a rank 7 and rank 15 freep.

It may not be ground-breaking but there are many major skills/traits that creeps receive in the later ranks that do have a notable impact on the creeps potential. Uruk heal, rabid bite trait, DR, AOE DoT etc etc. These aren't minor tweaks.

The irony is the skills you named are mostly acquired by rank 12, which is still less than 1/3 of rank 15, and even more ironic is that you named DR and Uruk heal, which are rank 9 racials which are 1/10th of rank 15.

So the difference between a rank 9 creep and a rank 15, in comparison to the difference between a rank 9 freep and rank 15 freep is very, very little really.

[Spacmanbobr]

I stopped reading there considering there's 143 rank 10's on Snowbourn, and we're not even the most active PVP server, so lets assume for a minute, that the average is 100 rank 10's per server over 26 servers, so you're saying 2,000+ rank 10's isn't a lot?

First thing, Snowbourn, Elendilmir, Vanyar, Eldar, maybe Landroval and Silverlode are probably the only servers that have above 100+ rank 10s... Snowbourn is HUGE compared to most other servers, so your point is moot there. Now, even if there are 2,000+ rank 10s in the game, that's nothing compared to the 25,000-50,000 people that try out PvMP, especially after this update. Furthermore, you failed to read anymore of my argument, so there's not much point in me continuing to respond to your comment.

I'm going to add one more thing. People don't seem to realize the changes that Turbine is doing right now, and yes it is disappointing that they didn't just go and give us a PvMP region since people HAVE been loyal and playing this aspect to the game since 2007, are a prep for expanding upon PvMP. They first want to see how many people actually try out this aspect of the game and how much money it pumps out from just this update. Then they'll move forward depending on the actual number of people who are playing PvMP and give us new updates for it. I played on beta; the changes as far as I'm concerned for balance are great. It was some of the most fun I've had on creepside and I only auto-ranked my creeps to rank 9, and I was rolling some freeps who had gear on my reaver and defiler, even though I was given rank 10+ skills/traits. It's going to be a fun update once people look past all the pay to win #### that has been put in.

[Spacmanbobr]

Getting to 75 and fully geared will take approximately the same time as it takes to get rank 7, which is about the point where creeps (wargs and reavers in perticular) can easily stand toe to toe with freeps.

So you're saying creeps should get all their skills/traits at rank 7? I only partially agree, rank 10 seems appropriate to me.

[Mr_Pedantic]

So you're saying creeps should get all their skills/traits at rank 7? I only partially agree, rank 10 seems appropriate to me.

No I'm saying at the moment, by rank 7 they have everything they need, so there's not a single reason to make the 'fluff' skills come before the ranks they currently require, aside from giving people at rank 10+ even less incentive to go for high rank.

Or is reading comprehension too hard for you?

[Odin_of_Freyr]

Freeps have all their skills available to them; why shouldn't creeps?

Not saying it is MY opinion, but it is AN opinion: Because freeps had to level all the way to 65, raise virtues, grind class traits, grind legendary traits, grind rep for crafted relics, grind gear via instances, find legendary weapons, grind item EXP for weapons/items, grind skirmishes for scrolls of empowerment..... see where I'm going? Creeps get insta-65, and have no grind other than ranking &/or potions, which can be long, but consider a freep's grind to the same rank.

There isn't a big difference between a rank 7 and a rank 15 (strenght wise) for most creeps classes. You should know that.

Completely disagree. I'm not sure what server you're on, but this isn't the case on E.

[Sluggard]

Not saying it is MY opinion, but it is AN opinion: Because freeps had to level all the way to 65, raise virtues, grind class traits, grind legendary traits, grind rep for crafted relics, grind gear via instances, find legendary weapons, grind item EXP for weapons/items, grind skirmishes for scrolls of empowerment..... see where I'm going? Creeps get insta-65, and have no grind other than ranking &/or potions, which can be long, but consider a freep's grind to the same rank.

Completely disagree. I'm not sure what server you're on, but this isn't the case on E.

I've just ranked a freep to moria in 4 days /played and I wasn't particularly precious about afk time. The trip to 65 will take no time. 2xrings/bracelet of brawiling 2xcrafted earrings the jewel from the forsaken inn - you can get all that in a day if you have saved your SMs along the way. You don't even need to grind the Instance sets to get good gear. If I'm not competitive and at 65 in 2 weeks real time in PvMP I'll be very surprised.

Levelling and gearing a freep to be more than competitive in the moors is easy.

I don't understand people who say there is no incentive to play creep now... you don't have to buy your skills you can still grind for them if that's what floats your boat.

[OverlordGate]

Do you honestly want to spend years and years playing this game just to get all your skills? (Assuming you play a creep)

No but to get rank 15 and in addition to this I want to be more powerful than a casual with this rank! To answer some sentences of other people here: Progression was the only "FUN" I (you) had in this PvP. The overpowered´ness of freeps is not funny anymore...

25,000-50,000

lol

[OverlordGate]

I don't understand people who say there is no incentive to play creep now... you don't have to buy your skills you can still grind for them if that's what floats your boat.

and after rank 10... oe in my case rank 13? for what 900.000 points, tell me

[Sezneg]

No but to get rank 15 and in addition to this I want to be more powerful than a casual with this rank! To answer some sentences of other people here: Progression was the only "FUN" I (you) had in this PvP. The overpowered´ness of freeps is not funny anymore...



lol

You will still be more powerful through battlefield promotions.

Finesse is huge, and low rank creeps have very little of it (high rank creeps have more than it is mathematically possible for a freep to obtain).

Letting every creep get access to their entire skillset will help make things BALANCED, which you seem to want.

Here's the thing, you want to be A LOT stronger than lower rank creeps... but you also want to be balanced against freeps.

That means either:

1. You are balanced against freeps, but the low ranks are worthless in a fight. Congrats, you get rolled because having 5 people online who are actually balanced = you lose.

2. The lower ranks are balanced against the freeps, you are overpowered. The moors becomes a ghost-town zone because as we have shown time and time again, when high rank creeps are noticeably stronger than freeps... the freeps go home (Early SOM period).

So instead how about you have a noticeable, but not overwhelming difference between you and the low ranks, and also some parity with the freeps? Personally, I'm looking forward to that. And I'm the highest ranking spider who still plays on my server.

[Circumstances]

A simple suggestion...

Don't like the store? Don't buy things from it.

Like the store? Buy things from it.

Don't like that other people have a different opinion on this matter? Keep it to yourself.


Oh hey, all this nonsense is solved, fancy that.

[OverlordGate]

You will still be more powerful through battlefield promotions.

I talk about the difference from rank 10 to rank 15... not rank 0 to rank 15...

I just queote me again for you:

That is so stupid! You don´t understand the point!

You earn ~400.000 points to become Lieutenant and have all your skills, okay... I can handle that! Than again ~230.000 points for +1-2% more damage... again ~380.000 points for 1-2% more damage... again 600.000 points for 1-2% damage... AGAIN 900.000 points for 1-2% damage... AND F***** AGAIN 1.200.000 points for 1-2% damage! And NOTHING else except for a skin and 3/5 not existing, 2/5 weak and ridiculous skill improvements... there is NO reason to make so much points for these laughable things! THAT is the point! And because of this I´m extremely pissed... I worked on rank 13 to have finally my last active skill... but that was for nothing because everybody get this skill now and I (and all the other high ranks) get nothing for the extra 3.300.000 points!

your "cool" battle promotions are to low for the points you´ll have to earn

[Mr_Pedantic]

you don't have to buy your skills you can still grind for them if that's what floats your boat.

And when you hit rank 10, what then?

Ranks 1-10 you don't need an incentive, they're easy ranks, 400,000 renown/infamy isn't a lot.

But from rank 10 to 12, you need 600,000 infamy/renown, So, in the time it takes you to get those two ranks on your main, you could have got another creep to rank 10 and a third to rank 8 let alone ranks 13, 14 and 15.

Seeing the issue?

Once you hit rank 10, there's very little incentive to rank further as the investment vs the reward doesn't scale at all.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

So apparently getting to what would be now, level 75, and gearing up takes as much time as getting a creep to rank 15, eh? LOL. I think not.

That is a seperate issue.

In my experience and opinion creeps should start becoming a challenge for freeps 1 vs 1 at around rank 8/9 and with each rank thereafter become harder and harder. A rank 12+ creep should give any freep a run for their money.

I also think freeps should get tangible benefits for ranking up, not to the same degree as creeps but still more than an armour set.

Ultimately this is a pointless line of debate because it seems they're going back to the powerful freeps vs creep numbers system so 1 vs 1 comparisons are pointless. As I said earlier this isn't a balance issue this is an issue with pay to win.

Do you honestly want to spend years and years playing this game just to get all your skills? (Assuming you play a creep)

No one to my knowledge has really complained about the current system of creeps gaining abilities as they rank up. This has only come about because of this pay-to-win announcement. Now it seems some nubs like the sound of buying their way to the top without having to put that much effort into the task so they're jumping on board the idea.

[Sezneg]

I talk about the difference from rank 10 to rank 15... not rank 0 to rank 15...

I just queote me again for you:



your "cool" battle promotions are to low for the points you´ll have to earn

You can have "I win because I've been playing longer" or you can have "this is some really good balanced pvp".

If the reward scaled as much as you want, you'd never be able to balance anything. You'd either have greenies who can't do anything, or vets are actually overpowered.

Turbine actually wants to grow the pvp side of the game. That means new players can't be at such a disadvantage that they feel like they can't catch up.

Maybe this offends your need to feel "better" than new players, but that's how MMOs function (every single one of them). Just like the old forest has a map now. That's why horses are available much earlier than before. As the long end of the curve gets further and further away, you need to shift the short end curve so that new players don't see "catching up" as impossible. Such is life for an MMO vet.

[Sezneg]

No one to my knowledge has really complained about the current system of creeps gaining abilities as they rank up. This has only come about because of this pay-to-win announcement. Now it seems some nubs like the sound of buying their way to the top without having to put that much effort into the task so they're jumping on board the idea.

That's because as the game has aged, they have made the lower ranks and even ranks once considered "high" easier and easier to gain so that new players can catch up.

You used to "approach parity" with freeps around rank 5 (back before moria). Suddenly, after moria you needed *gasp* to be closer to rank 7-8 to approach parity and wouldn't you know it? They nerfed the infamy required to rank so that a lot of players at rank 5 logged in the next day and were automatically rank 7!

Well, the new point of parity is; you have all your skills. If you don't, good luck... because you are going to be fodder.

This is NO different than the raid infamy boost (lol raidbabies zerg to easy rank! all over these forums), the infamy curve change (lol autorankers all over these forums). You have benefited from BOTH of these changes... as well as the relic buff and likely the DP perk.

Would you rather they nerf the infamy curve again so that you log in one day already rank 15 and basically done with the game?

[Thorandril]

A simple suggestion...

Don't like the store? Don't buy things from it.

Like the store? Buy things from it.

Don't like that other people have a different opinion on this matter? Keep it to yourself.


Oh hey, all this nonsense is solved, fancy that.

There goes this thread. It seems many are of the opinion that rank entitles faceroll.
"but I'm rank 13, I should kill lower ranked people with impunity!"

No, the system they have now actually improves you with rank, noticeably. I may even play my reaver now since I no longer have only +1 aoe targets to look forward too, but a larger skillset. If you think the previous system of "only have 1 mediocre skill to look forward to, and maybe a nice skin" was better than this one, that's being naive.

Don't pretend fulltime creeps wont have the spare turbine points to get everything they want without spending a dime on the store.

[Sezneg]

There goes this thread. It seems many are of the opinion that rank entitles faceroll.
"but I'm rank 13, I should kill lower ranked people with impunity!"

No, the system they have now actually improves you with rank, noticeably. I may even play my reaver now since I no longer have only +1 aoe targets to look forward too, but a larger skillset. If you think the previous system of "only have 1 mediocre skill to look forward to, and maybe a nice skin" was better than this one, that's being naive.

Don't pretend fulltime creeps wont have the spare turbine points to get everything they want without spending a dime on the store.

You need to roll a new champ on E. Spider vs champ from the testing I've done is back to being as fun as it was back in book 14 SOA.

[OverlordGate]

I think you still don´t get my point!

When creeps get all of their skills earlier, it´s a good (but small) step for a balanced game, I agree wih this!

I also don´t want me (as a high rank) in an overpowered position in which everyone who don´t have so much time for the game or the PvMP have to run away! I want perspective, I wan´t to know that I get a boost with my next rank, I want to delight for the next new rank: It have to be profitable! The enemies have to say: Oh they got a Tyrant, first target him go go go. But 1.300.000 points from tank 14 to rank 15 aren´t profitable anymore... +100 morale, + 100 power, +1% finesse, 1% damage, a skin and a bugged akulhun-symbol... in front of rank 14 it´s no big deal... it´s a ridiculous deal... in front of rank 6 or something it´s quite okay... but not for this 1.300.000 points! You have to say: Oh okay it´s no overlord... it´s a tyrant... nobody talks of OP´ness with this high ranks

[D3str0yer]

I also don´t want me (as a high rank) in an overpowered position in which everyone who don´t have so much time for the game or the PvMP have to run away! I want perspective, I wan´t to know that I get a boost with my next rank, I want to delight for the next new rank: It have to be profitable! The enemies have to say: Oh they got a Tyrant, first target him go go go. But 1.300.000 points from tank 14 to rank 15 aren´t profitable anymore... +100 morale, + 100 power, +1% finesse, 1% damage, a skin and a bugged akulhun-symbol... in front of rank 14 it´s no big deal... it´s a ridiculous deal... in front of rank 6 or something it´s quite okay... but not for this 1.300.000 points! You have to say: Oh okay it´s no overlord... it´s a tyrant... nobody talks of OP´ness with this high ranks

Freeps have since the begging of pvp have had to rank for no rewards whatsoever at higher ranks. Why cannot you? Atleast creeps get battlepromotions while freeps will get different cloaks that you need a certain rank to get depending on your class. The r12 cloak might be best for a certain class while R15 is best for another. Id rather have freep side battle promotions.

Ask yourself WHY do freeps keep coming back with no real rank rewards after pvp armor ( the armor is not even good for certain classes). I got the answer, its for FUN!

But I can still see that you want rewards for ranking, but lotro is not a real pvp game. If they want to include powerful rewards they have to change the whole pvp system so the sides are almost equal. But there are other pvp orientated games coming soon

[Sluggard]

And when you hit rank 10, what then?

Ranks 1-10 you don't need an incentive, they're easy ranks, 400,000 renown/infamy isn't a lot.

But from rank 10 to 12, you need 600,000 infamy/renown, So, in the time it takes you to get those two ranks on your main, you could have got another creep to rank 10 and a third to rank 8 let alone ranks 13, 14 and 15.

Seeing the issue?

Once you hit rank 10, there's very little incentive to rank further as the investment vs the reward doesn't scale at all.

I play because it is fun. That is my incentive.

Ask yourself this... by your logic why would any freep ever enter the moors? The rewards are pretty scant. Answer: because it is fun...