Kelsen: What did High Ranks do to you?

[Sezneg]

I play because it is fun. That is my incentive.

Ask yourself this... by your logic why would any freep ever enter the moors? The rewards are pretty scant. Answer: because it is fun...

I'll go one further; once you don't have to rank slave just to get a needed/useful skill maybe we can ALL focus more on fun and some of the drudgery of the rank grind can give way to just having fun?

[Elysiak]

I'll go one further; once you don't have to rank slave just to get a needed/useful skill maybe we can ALL focus more on fun and some of the drudgery of the rank grind can give way to just having fun?

Most are all for a reduction to the rank grind, consolidating skills to lower levels to be more competitive. The problem exists with using the store to accomplish that.

[Baslin]

Most are all for a reduction to the rank grind, consolidating skills to lower levels to be more competitive. The problem exists with using the store to accomplish that.

^^^^^^^^^^

[Thorandril]

Most are all for a reduction to the rank grind, consolidating skills to lower levels to be more competitive. The problem exists with using the store to accomplish that.

Concerning skills alone, I doubt any full time creeps will need to spend a dime. Just spend the monthly TP allowance.

P2W pots/brands for the baddies.

[Sezneg]

Most are all for a reduction to the rank grind, consolidating skills to lower levels to be more competitive. The problem exists with using the store to accomplish that.

I've invested a LOT of money into this game over the course of playing.

I have NO QUALMS having new players be forced to invest in the game to get the most out of the pvp experience.

That's a win for turbine, it's a win for me (they get to have more money to spend on the game), and I don't see why it should matter to us in the least who does and doesn't take the option to purchase their skillset.

[Elysiak]

I've invested a LOT of money into this game over the course of playing.

I have NO QUALMS having new players be forced to invest in the game to get the most out of the pvp experience.

That's a win for turbine, it's a win for me (they get to have more money to spend on the game), and I don't see why it should matter to us in the least who does and doesn't take the option to purchase their skillset.

Forcing anyone to pay for basic skills that we supposedly now need to compete with freeps is fundamentally wrong. There are many other ways for turbine to raise revenue many of which are listed in various threads. Skills should not be one of them.

[Afterthought]

Letting every creep get access to their entire skillset will help make things BALANCED, which you seem to want.

If this was ever about balance then the ability to buy the skills regardless of rank would be possible purely using in-game methods such as DP and DoF stones. It is about money not balance. I'm all for making low ranks more powerful to balance the game but it should be done in-game not in the turbine store.

That's because as the game has aged, they have made the lower ranks and even ranks once considered "high" easier and easier to gain so that new players can catch up.

You used to "approach parity" with freeps around rank 5 (back before moria). Suddenly, after moria you needed *gasp* to be closer to rank 7-8 to approach parity and wouldn't you know it? They nerfed the infamy required to rank so that a lot of players at rank 5 logged in the next day and were automatically rank 7!

Well, the new point of parity is; you have all your skills. If you don't, good luck... because you are going to be fodder.

This is NO different than the raid infamy boost (lol raidbabies zerg to easy rank! all over these forums), the infamy curve change (lol autorankers all over these forums). You have benefited from BOTH of these changes... as well as the relic buff and likely the DP perk.

Would you rather they nerf the infamy curve again so that you log in one day already rank 15 and basically done with the game?

It isn't the same. I don't remember ever having to fork out real money to buy the DP infamy buff or to upgrade to the new infamy curve when it came out either. Oh wait, i didn't because those were changes to the in-game mechanics not using the store to completely bypass the in-game mechanics.

I've invested a LOT of money into this game over the course of playing.

I have NO QUALMS having new players be forced to invest in the game to get the most out of the pvp experience.

That's a win for turbine, it's a win for me (they get to have more money to spend on the game), and I don't see why it should matter to us in the least who does and doesn't take the option to purchase their skillset.

I'm not a new player. I've paid for this game just as much as you have. If i want to go roll a spider i'm immediately going to be at a disadvantage compared to the other creeps who now have the ability to buy their skills. Being a student with my current financial position i can't afford to buy all my skills on some video game just because of some stupid pay-for-advantage model. I'm still going to get, as some people put it "destroyed by freeps" because i can't afford to buy my skills, while others are not going to be because they can afford to buy their skills. Is that fair? So i'm being placed at a disadvantage based on one thing alone - that i don't have as much money as some other people. To me despite any other argument about rank, balance or anything, that is why this decision is so wrong.

If they really want to make things balanced then make the skills available at rank 0 IN-GAME. I'd still be slightly annoyed because of the consequences for higher ranks but at least it would be an in-game change and would be fair to all players.

[Louvre]

If i want to go roll a spider i'm immediately going to be at a disadvantage compared to the other creeps who now have the ability to buy their skills. Being a student with my current financial position i can't afford to buy all my skills on some video game just because of some stupid pay-for-advantage model. I'm still going to get, as some people put it "destroyed by freeps" because i can't afford to buy my skills, while others are not going to be because they can afford to buy their skills. Is that fair? So i'm being placed at a disadvantage based on one thing alone - that i don't have as much money as some other people. To me despite any other argument about rank, balance or anything, that is why this decision is so wrong.

An interesting point of view. Under that line of though you are also in a clear disadvantage when you're not driving a BMW car (because those are faster and fancier) and others on the road are. See my point? Not because it exists it has to affect you.

There are thousands of millions of people out there with stuff I don't own, and that doesn't put me in disadvantage! And that's because I don't need all that stuff, just as you don't need a store to get EXACTLY the same thing. Just as you don't need all of the stuff that Turbine is ALREADY selling at the store like running speed buffs, morale/power pots, etc., and that apparently you don't consider as an advantage (because, let me remind you, those can make a difference in the Ettenmoors).

I'm up for having options.

[Afterthought]

An interesting point of view. Under that line of though you are also in a clear disadvantage when you're not driving a BMW car (because those are faster and fancier) and others on the road are. See my point? Not because it exists it has to affect you.

Pretty bad comparison but i'll go with it. My Honda still does all the things it needs to. I'm not disadvantaged by not being able to buy a BMW because as long as the car gets you from A to B then really who gives a stuff. Your car example would be more accurately used if we were discussing fluff items. Furthermore you're directly comparing RL to a video game which is not really a plausible thing to do in most situations. Taking RL into account, fine, making direct comparisons however almost never works. This is because video games rarely reflect reality.

Going with a metaphor similar to yours however. If we use a hypothetical car race where every new racer is given a Holden and they are told that is what you get for being new. However if you can afford $X then we'll let you buy a Ferrari from us that you can use in the race. Those people obviously now have an advantage. See the difference? They are setting one rule for everyone and then only allow people with money to break that rule. That is unfair.

They would have better survivability, better ability to kill stuff and in pretty much every way have better stuff. When competing for limited resources, in this case either npcs or freeps, then that does give them an advantage and having that advantage does affect me, whether i like it or not.

There are thousands of millions of people out there with stuff I don't own, and that doesn't put me in disadvantage! And that's because I don't need all that stuff, just as you don't need a store to get EXACTLY the same thing. Just as you don't need all of the stuff that Turbine is ALREADY selling at the store like running speed buffs, morale/power pots, etc., and that apparently you don't consider as an advantage (because, let me remind you, those can make a difference in the Ettenmoors).

I'm up for having options.

I'm sure a homeless person comparing themselves to someone with a house would look at things differently. However RL comparisons with a game are just silly.

If we hold rank 0 constant. Then i DO need the STORE to get EXACTLY the same thing. I have a rank 12 warg in that instance yes i don't need the store to get what a rank 0 can but i've already earned that through the game itself. If i roll a rank 0 the only way i can get EXACTLY what someone buying all their skills at rank 0 can, while remaining rank 0 myself, is through the STORE. That is my main issue with this being implemented.

I'm not sure where you got the last part from. I do consider that store bought rubbish an advantage and i never will use it because just like the skills i find that to be paying-for-advantage but they give only a temporary advantage to the opponent and most times the advantage they gain is minimal. Skills however offer a much bigger advantage and a permanent one at that.

[Ivaneus]

We've got a lot of arguing going on here and though I stand on the side of saying no to bought skills, may I propose a compromise?

Ignore for the moment your beliefs on whether or not Turbine would actually do this. I DON'T CARE TO HEAR ABOUT IT AND IT ADDS NOTHING TO THE CONVERSATION.

I know this is coming a little out of left field, but I think we need to approach the whole situation a bit more realistically. Turbine wants to sell skills and that has split the community and cheesed off a lot of people. What I want is a compromise that we, the players, can agree on and offer to Turbine as an alternative to what they are currently doing. But an alternative that will take minimal effort to implement, and that will allow them to stick to their current plan fairly closely. I feel that what I have outlined here is a good start, but I want feedback so that we can get to a point where we, the players, can agree.

What if store bought skills and traits were slightly inferior to rank acquired ones? Would you still feel the same way and would you feel that it was more convenience or advantage? Remember I am saying slightly inferior.

For instance, say I as a Rank 8 Warleader, were to rank up and hit Rank 9 and acquire Quitters Never Win. I decide that I want the improved version (Rank 15) so I pony up and buy it from the Ye Olde Turbine Store. Now what if, instead of -5 minutes on the cooldown, the store-bought version only had -4 minutes? All other effects would remain the same, but a Warleader who spent the time to rank up and aquire the skill in-game would have a 1 minute cooldown advantage for this skill; do you think that would be fair? Do you think it would still be appealing enough to sell? Would the in-game version still be a credible upgrade?

But not everything in the store would be sellable if it was a slightly weaker version, particularly lower ranked skills. So perhaps anything below rank 5 would be sold at normal power, and from Rank 5 onwards store bought traits would be slightly less effective than earned traits, while skills would remain equal until Rank 7 or 8. Does that sound fair to you?

As for how to make things less effective, cooldown differences will settle most of that for higher skills and traits (think 1-2 minutes for long cooldown skills and abilities such as Grip, Imposing Presence, Quitters, Dying Rage etc. and shorter increases for other skills), and where cooldowns cannot be used well, the Dev team could get creative. For instance the Improved tracking trait for Wargs: The current version reduces the tracking radius but allows the warg to track stealthed foes. The store bought one could be exactly the same, but the in-game version could have no tracking distance reduction. For statistical increases like the regeneration racial traits, they could be 20-50 points lower than in-game versions (or more depending on the numbers involved), they would still be quite potent, but certainly less potent than an earned version would be.

I want some serious, well-thought out feedback on this whole idea here. Even if we were to propose a compromise and Turbine were to reject it, as a community we would be united once more since we woud always be able to say, "If Turbine had listened to us and done such-and-such things would be better" etc.

I think that re-uniting the community would be a worthy achievement, don't you? And it'll be even better if Turbine listens so let's give this our best shot and make it count.

Sincerely,
Ivaneus

[Afterthought]

...

Sincerely,
Ivaneus

Good solid post. It is definitely a better alternative than what has been proposed. I guess for me the problem is still the store part. I'm against allowing for people to pay for anything which cannot be obtained in game. A rank 0 cannot get a rank 5 skill in-game so it conflicts with my views.

I'd be all up for giving creeps their skills at lower ranks through an in-game method but not anything which means that something can only be obtained at a specific rank via the store.

So i guess anything i could offer depends on if this was done primarily for balance or for money. If it was done for money i have little to offer because it will most likely involve the store and skills which i am against.

I suppose all i could offer if it is for money is to suggest skill ranks be dropped and allowed through in-game methods and turbine makes some new appearances to sell via the store for cash.

[Lestache]

As I said in another thread, wake me when the creepside equivalents of stat tomes and store-only LI relics make it into the Store. (Perhaps a few new passives that can only be obtained in the Store?)

Until then, who cares? At least a R0 Uruk who can't afford/refuses to buy Get a Grip has a clear in-game method to obtain the skill - hit R9.

Please enlighten me as to how exactly I may obtain a Tome of Might II in-game.

Or tell my Guardian buddy exactly what he must do to acquire a True Setting of Continuance in-game.

[IGolbezI]

maybe its the weed but wow i cant find it in me to care at all. buying skills = SEND YOUR SOUL TO THE UNDERWORLD OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

[Mr_Pedantic]

An interesting point of view. Under that line of though you are also in a clear disadvantage when you're not driving a BMW car (because those are faster and fancier) and others on the road are. See my point? Not because it exists it has to affect you.

There are thousands of millions of people out there with stuff I don't own, and that doesn't put me in disadvantage! And that's because I don't need all that stuff, just as you don't need a store to get EXACTLY the same thing. Just as you don't need all of the stuff that Turbine is ALREADY selling at the store like running speed buffs, morale/power pots, etc., and that apparently you don't consider as an advantage (because, let me remind you, those can make a difference in the Ettenmoors).

I'm up for having options.

Luckily we're in a video game, so what people have IRL should not matter one single bit in game. Your bank balance should not be a factor in a game aside from actually having access to it. Not only does that remove any and all competitiveness from the game, but it is just morally wrong, you're basically balancing the game around social standing. If you think that's okay you're ****ed in the head.

Please enlighten me as to how exactly I may obtain a Tome of Might II in-game.

Go Farm level 35 Great Barrows for a few months - or wait for one to pop up on the AH and buy it?

And the comparison doesn't work, 10 might, does not give you an advantage, 100 melee offence is so meagre (when you have reasonable gear.) it's not actually equated when calculating skill damage due to how the damage is rounded, or did you not realise that?

However a rank 0 Reaver having Ravage, Blood of Fire, Dying Rage and Burning Blades becomes easily 10x more capable than a rank 0 reaver without these things.

Which is why the two comparisons don't match - at all.

[OverlordGate]

Freeps have since the begging of pvp have had to rank for no rewards whatsoever at higher ranks.

You can´t argue with that. Like you said, freeps have had no good rewards since the beginning. Everyone who start playing freep in the moors know that. But I started playing a monster because I loved this system of becoming more powerful with every rank, the progression! You work on something and that makes a MMO. There have to be aims in a good MMO. There´s no PvE Content at least and now they take this little last aim from me (as a high rank). That´s why I can´t and thats why I´m pissed. All right, give the new player a straight perspective, but why on my costs?

I play because it is fun. That is my incentive.

Then you can´t play since a long time. Or that´s the reason for the minimal player quantity on 80% of the american servers in the moors

[D3str0yer]

But I started playing a monster because I loved this system of becoming more powerful with every rank, the progression! You work on something and that makes a MMO. There have to be aims in a good MMO. There´s no PvE Content at least and now they take this little last aim from me (as a high rank). That´s why I can´t and thats why I´m pissed. All right, give the new player a straight perspective, but why on my costs?

Then dont buy skills/traits from store and "earn" them, what difference does it make to you if another warg decide to buy it for his TP that he earned by being a VIP. None is putting a gun to your head and threaten you too buy skills from lotro store. You can still showoff your huge grind on a game that isn't really focused on pvp with rank skins.

Rank = Time in ettens not skill, now low ranked can get same skills as the high ranked, this will create a better balance and thus more fun

[Sluggard]

Then you can´t play since a long time. Or that´s the reason for the minimal player quantity on 80% of the american servers in the moors

Or maybe it's because I play on an (once was) EU server

Honestly, I have taken quite a few breaks from the game. Go play something else for a few months or do something less boring in RL. Then come back fresh.

Maybe more ppl should try it. Might cut down on the whining. It's just a freaking game, let people enjoy it as and how they want.

[Lestache]

Go Farm level 35 Great Barrows for a few months - or wait for one to pop up on the AH and buy it?

And the comparison doesn't work, 10 might, does not give you an advantage, 100 melee offence is so meagre (when you have reasonable gear.) it's not actually equated when calculating skill damage due to how the damage is rounded, or did you not realise that?

However a rank 0 Reaver having Ravage, Blood of Fire, Dying Rage and Burning Blades becomes easily 10x more capable than a rank 0 reaver without these things.

Which is why the two comparisons don't match - at all.

Okay, I'll farm level 35 Great Barrows 5 times a day. How many days until I get my Tome of Might II? (Or, alternately, I'll check the AH every day for it - how many days until it appears?)

When I'm not doing that, I'll roll a new Warleader and PvP until I earn 500 infamy every day. How many days until I hit rank 9?

One of these two paths at least guarantees me that I'll be able to get what I want. One of these two paths has a clearly calculable time invested portion. One of these two paths allows me to determine whether X TP is worth (to me) the convenience of having the desired item/skill now vs. the time I'd need to invest to get it on my own.

And while I appreciate your suggestions, I do find it amusing that you're using the fallback position that many Store proponents often use - to wit, "+10 to a stat doesn't give you an advantage, because it's a small advantage," or, as I and others used to call it back when F2P first launched, the "X+1 = X" defense. Hopefully you can see the logical extension of that argument, which is that if +10 to a stat isn't an advantage, then neither is +20, or +30, or +100.

I despise the Store as much as anyone - there's a reason I'm sitting on about 19k TP without ever having spent a dime on TP. My point is this: you (and others) are upset about people being able to purchase something that anyone could achieve in-game via a clearly delineated path; meanwhile, my primary concern with Store items is with those items that either, 1) cannot be obtained in-game (certain LI relics, store-only morale/power pots), or; 2) cannot be obtained in-game via a clearly delineated path to acquisition (stat tomes).

You may be upset that a R0 with money might be more powerful than a R0 without money, but at least the R0 without money can still obtain everything that the R0 with money can buy, it'll just take longer (and, honestly, quite a bit longer in some cases). Personally, I think that you should be more upset about the Store offerings that aren't available in-game - in-combat brands on a shorter cooldown than the R15 brands; safe-fall items; in-combat run speed buffs; and so forth.

[Celestrata]

As this discussion is being carried on in multiple other threads, I'm going to close this thread and leave the other threads open.