Five New Instances in Update 5

[Cabbus]

Thats correct!

All X-pacs with TPs

All updates free

and the name of this tread is Five new Instances in Update 5

so we will be able to buy the xpac with TPs and get the update for free

anything less and they will have lied to all of us that have been here from the start.

I agree with this also. Its what we were told when we paid for this.

[Gomar_Eldar]

Do you guys remember the Book 8 update after Mines of Moria? It included an instance cluster with 1 raid, 1 6-man and 2 3-man instances. Was the instance cluster available to people who didn't purchase the expansion? No, because it WAS part of the expansion, despite the fact that it was released later. Same here. The instance cluster in Update 5 will be part of the Rise of Isengard expansion. This means that only people who purchase the expansion will have access to the instances and they will not be free to VIPs.

[Kerin_Eldar]

Do you guys remember the Book 8 update after Mines of Moria? It included an instance cluster with 1 raid, 1 6-man and 2 3-man instances. Was the instance cluster available to people who didn't purchase the expansion? No, because it WAS part of the expansion, despite the fact that it was released later. Same here. The instance cluster in Update 5 will be part of the Rise of Isengard expansion. This means that only people who purchase the expansion will have access to the instances and they will not be free to VIPs.

Difference is:

1) Turbine 'sold' F2P to people partly on the basis that VIP status would continue to mean what you describe
2) they also said VIPs could 'buy' expansions with TP, so their VIP status would mean associated content would be 'free'
3) NOW they're saying that VIPs buying the expac with TP WON'T get the associated content free, totally reneging on what they originally said.

I don't use the word 'renege' often, it's much over-used, but I think in this case it's entirely accurate to describe this move as just that.

[LeRaginAsian]

The complaining in this thread is ridiculous.

If you're VIP/lifetimer and you've stockpiled your TP, you'll be able to get RoI and the new instances free. If you're a f2p/premium and you do enough deed grinding for TP, you'll be able to get RoI and the new instances free. If you're not sure whether you have enough TP for both, you probably don't.

The cheapest pre-order option is $30. That's nothing. It's half a console game that never gets updated. If you can't afford to put $30 into your future in the game, you probably shouldn't be wasting time playing it in the first place.

Video games cost money, it's a fact of life. The f2p system is a convenience, not an obligation. Pay to play it like any other MMO and you'll get everything. Otherwise, get ready to grind.

tl;dr - Games cost money. Deal with it.

[HolyGigi]

Do you guys remember the Book 8 update after Mines of Moria? It included an instance cluster with 1 raid, 1 6-man and 2 3-man instances. Was the instance cluster available to people who didn't purchase the expansion? No, because it WAS part of the expansion, despite the fact that it was released later. Same here. The instance cluster in Update 5 will be part of the Rise of Isengard expansion. This means that only people who purchase the expansion will have access to the instances and they will not be free to VIPs.

Not a valid point. At that time, there were only one type of players: paying customers. You didn't pay, you didn't play. There was no f2p, vip, premium, etc.

[Tainted_Black]

why anyone wouldn't pay the $30 to help fund the future of the game anyway is beyond me. If you care enough to ##### about the game and future content then you should care enough to donate $30 to the future expansion of our wonderful gaming world.

If however you wanna free-load your way through the game then you should be made to purchase the future content with TP. VIP or not.

You don't get anything for nothing in this world.

[revoked]

Except that you could be a paying customer who didn't buy Mirkwood and you would not have had access to the instances. Effectively, there were 3 groups of paying customers: those who only had access to SoA content, those who had access to SoA and Moria and those who had access to SoA, Moria, and Mirkwood. What you had access to depended on what expansion you had bought.

With F2P it essentially works the same. What you have access to depends on what you have bought, but you have the option of using TP you get in game or as part of your subscription bonus to do so. They aren't actually saying that you can't use TP to get the expansion. It seems that what they are saying is that they may not sell it as one "expansion" but instead sell it as a quest pack, plus an instance cluster (and I assume a skirmish soldier level cap rise).

As a VIP, will you be able to use your free TP to get everything that is in the current pre-order expansion? As far as I can see, yes. You can still use the TP you earned in game, got as a VIP, or that you bought on sale. Maybe there will also be a bundled offer that includes quest pack, skirmishes and soldier cap, but even if there isn't, you can still get all the components for absolutely free if you want.

Will it be for the same equivalent price as pre-ordering it and paying cash (base 30 USD), we don't know. Are they required to offer their product to VIPs for exactly the same price (or essentially for less than, consider the use of bonus points) the pre-order price? Personally, I don't think so.

Now, there is another issue they have to consider. When ROI launches, the 5 instances clusters will almost certainly not be ready. If they sell it as a bundle but part of the bundle is not available, they may well get a good number of customers who haven't followed the forums who are completely confused and possibly quite unhappy.

From that perspective, it may be a better choice to only offer the quest pack initially and add the instances as a separate purchase when they are actually available. All indicators are that forum rats like myself are quite a small portion of the game's playing population. Not offering an expansion bundle might be lead to less unhappiness and confusion, especially considering they already sell Mirkwood only as components not as a bundle. In any case it has got to be one factor they are considering in their decision about how to sell and price the expansion.

[GregJL]

Of course, Turbine has thrown a new dog into the ring with what amounts to a split release of an expansion...

And of course, they'll probably make it even MORE confusing by having more than just the 5 new instances in Update 5, making IT a split release between paid for and free content.

Edit: Yes, I know this was brought up already, but I hadn't read that far yet.

[DobbelB_EU]

It doesn't make sense to me that Turbine just doesn't say 'If you buy Isengard you get the Instances free'.

It shouldn't make a difference if you use your credit card at the Digital River site or you use your credit card to buy Turbine Points. Without the Instances Isengard is a glorified quest pack...

It is a glorified quest pack, just like Moria and Mirkwood quest packs are now.

[Saphiorin]

Can not read this anymore...

why anyone wouldn't pay the $30 to help fund the future of the game anyway is beyond me. If you care enough to ##### about the game and future content then you should care enough to donate $30 to the future expansion of our wonderful gaming world.

Why are you so dead sure they would spend this $30 for the game or "future expansions"?
What about a new Ferrari for WB CEO?

This "pay as much as you can and hope for a better future"-nonsense sucks realy.

[Kerin_Eldar]

If you can't afford to put $30 into your future in the game, you probably shouldn't be wasting time playing it in the first place.

Strawman .

[Randa_4352]

The complaining in this thread is ridiculous.

tl;dr - Games cost money. Deal with it.

This really upsets me.

Its about Trust

Its about Integrity

We are not complaining for no reason.

I can't speak for the others but you can see from my join date and post count I am no troll.

I have lurked on this forum and kept my mouth shut and watched all of turbines lies boil and fester.

I cant just sit back and watch it and take it anymore.

Read thur my posts and then tell me one thing I have said that has been out of line.

I just want answers.

[Podraig]

So Update 5 is free to VIP/lifetime subscribers thats nice..it is a update afterall..end of the day update = update = free to VIP/Lifetime subscribers, turbine said so in the past and sold lifetime/VIP memberships on the strenght of it, all updates are free to VIP/Lifetime.

ROI is not free to VIP/Lifetime subscribers because its a expansion, ROI = expansion = VIP's/Lifetime players have to pay, Turbine said so in the past all VIP's/Lifetime players must pay for expansions. I'll buy the glorified quest pack with turbine points.

Thats my understanding from the post "update 5"..not expansion add-on 1 or ROI update 1..just "update 5"..while people may debate at the end of the day, I paid for a Lifetime subscription and that says all "Updates" are free, "expansions" are not..so I'll be happy with my "free" update 5 or I'll be demanding a refund for my whole lifetime subscription and moria/mirkwood expansions because Turbine will be in breach of contract, heys its 300 euro or so nothing be sneezed at, and ofc been a EU customer, we do have consumer laws that are worth more than the paper there wrote on.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

In the same way that the original lifetime deal ultimately may have handicapped the game, I'm starting to think that turbine was 'too generous' with the 500 free TPs every month to the lifetimers offer when the game went F2P. Having a situation whereby a lot of the lifetimers can negate having to pay for the expansion is not beneficial to the game.

I would go further than turbine and have made the expansions non-purchasable using TPs until 6 months after release. As for those that have 'stockpiled' turbine points they can make the decision to either pre-order with cash or wait for stuff to eventually become available in the store.

[Lomeloth]

why anyone wouldn't pay the $30 to help fund the future of the game anyway is beyond me. If you care enough to ##### about the game and future content then you should care enough to donate $30 to the future expansion of our wonderful gaming world.

Turbine is a business. They have made it very, very clear that they are interested in their bottom line above any other concern - which is, after all, what businesses do. They are not a charity, social club, or noble cause. They're in it for profit.

I do not "donate" to entities with whom my relationship is purely commercial. They offer a product or service, and as a consumer I either buy it or I don't. That's the cold, hard reality.

If however you wanna free-load your way through the game then you should be made to purchase the future content with TP. VIP or not.

You don't get anything for nothing in this world.

Expecting them to honour their word about the ability to purchase expansions with TP in their own Store is hardly "free-loading." As a business, Turbine has determined and advertised it as a valid method with which to purchase their product (in this case, expansion content). No one made it up. No one is asking for anything not already offered by Turbine.

What we are asking for is clarity in regard to that purchase method: What, exactly, will I be able to purchase? When? In what configurations? For how much? How does this compare to the other purchase options in terms of value to me? These are all basic questions informed consumers consider before any purchase.

[Randa_4352]

In the same way that the original lifetime deal ultimately may have handicapped the game, I'm starting to think that turbine was 'too generous' with the 500 free TPs every month to the lifetimers offer when the game went F2P. Having a situation whereby a lot of the lifetimers can negate having to pay for the expansion is not beneficial to the game.

I would go further than turbine and have made the expansions non-purchasable using TPs until 6 months after release. As for those that have 'stockpiled' turbine points they can make the decision to either pre-order with cash or wait for stuff to eventually become available in the store.

OK and what about the people who bought turbine points with cash??

Some people bought hundreds of dollars worth of them.

So what you have said makes no sense, these arent some freebie extras just thrown in!

and also us lifers have been around along time and we have loved and supported this game, and we only want
what we were told we would get.

You really should read up on your information before posting.

[Southpa]

Not sure many people are complaining about having to fork money over for paid expansions. Most of us have already done exactly that twice for this game. If you've been paying attention over the years, here's how it went:

Moria: Awesome! I got my money's worth and then some. Turbine simply rocks. This will keep me busy for months - maybe over a year. There is tons of content here! 10 levels, 7 Instances and a raid, New LI system, Radiance, new crafting tier...goody goody goody!

Mirkwood: Hmm...not nearly as impressive as Moria, but there's still a lot to do. Nice instance cluster that should have a decent lifespan. The raid is kinda tough and will probably keep us busy for many months to come. Combat revamp, skirmishes, too. Kinda concerned about the crummy itemization and the fact that even 5 levels up will invalidate most of the game's existing content, but O well... the future still looks promising

RoI: Wh-wh-wh-whuh? 400 mostly linear quests to take me to level 75. Eight scaled instances, some that are 3-4 years old, none of which are new? Simplified combat and stats? A single lair raid is the only new thing waiting for me at level cap? $30? Really? The future has never looked so grim, especially in light of the fact that the game's earnings had tripled (or better) in the past year.


See, that's the problem. It's all relative and this expansion is relatively weakest by leaps and bounds (even though the dough is again rolling in). I don't care what they say is coming. It's not here and won't be here with my $30 purchase. That's the take-home point.

[Lomeloth]

In the same way that the original lifetime deal ultimately may have handicapped the game, I'm starting to think that turbine was 'too generous' with the 500 free TPs every month to the lifetimers offer when the game went F2P. Having a situation whereby a lot of the lifetimers can negate having to pay for the expansion is not beneficial to the game.

The original lifetime membership offer was a calculated risk, on both sides: Turbine gambled that the capital raised would result in the ability to create additional revenue that would be greater than the number of purchasers who 'outlived' the value of the subscription in terms of monthly income. Purchasers gambled the investment would pay off such that over the longer term they'd keep playing the game long enough that the inital outlay would be less than it would have cost to pay a monthly fee.

We have no way of knowing whether Turbine won their bet or not. Any Lifer still around certainly won theirs.

As to the monthly TP stipend: Turbine's offer was value (perpetual access without additional fee) for consideration (lump sum investment). Offer and acceptance is the basis of any contract. Lifers accepted the offer, and a contract was made.

The value offered was access to the game and all of its content (save expansions, which always required additional purchase). The access portion of that bargain was devalued with the advent of F2P, in that it no longer required payment. Since the value proposition was, in fact, that you'd save money by not having to pay the subscription fee in perpetuity, they replaced it with a different value. Had they not made some substitution with at least ostensible value, they might have actually faced some legal risk under US contract law. Whether or not it would rise to a level high enough to sustain a suit is not something about which I will speculate, but I suspect the only reason they amended the deal to include those TP was their legal department advised them to do something about the "value received for consideration" aspect of the contract. It's all about risk management - easier to provide a new "value" that costs them nothing than face the possible risk. No cost is preferable to possible cost, almost every time. And no, I don't play one on TV...

I would go further than turbine and have made the expansions non-purchasable using TPs until 6 months after release. As for those that have 'stockpiled' turbine points they can make the decision to either pre-order with cash or wait for stuff to eventually become available in the store.

This strikes me as a case where things were not clearly thought out in advance. They made statements with ramifications that only later became apparent. As a VIP, I had actually expected to have to pay cash for expansions - right up until they said otherwise. Their inability to think it through doesn't equate to them being able to alter their statements post hoc. They've made their bed, and now they get to lie in it. The trick will be how much they think they can wriggle and spin what they said to result in the most cash revenue. If they wriggle and spin too much, the resultant cost will be in PR and goodwill instead.

[remellan]

1. I have been told I will be able to purchase expansions in the Turbine Store (not the Web Store) for TP.
2. I have not been told when the expansion will be available for purchase in this manner.
3. I have not been told in what configuration the expansion will be available for purchase in that manner.
4. I have not been told the price of the expansion and/or its consituent parts in TP.
5. I do not know if, as a VIP, I will have to purchase the Update (or its parts)separately for additional cost(s) in TP (or when I might be able to do so if I must buy it separately).

In short, I am not able to make an informed comparison between the theoretically available purchase methods, because absolutely no information is available about any salient data point inherent in one of them.

Working as intended, then.

What Turbine wants is for you to buy the expansion with real money, and their marketing is geared towards encouraging this. By restricting the information available and creating uncertainty they are merely increasing the number of people who will worry that there will be a delay or that there will be some other sort of problem with buying it from the store and so will pay for the pre-order. When giving people all the information they need might end up costing Turbine money, they will restrict the information they give out.

[DeeArr]

In the same way that the original lifetime deal ultimately may have handicapped the game, I'm starting to think that turbine was 'too generous' with the 500 free TPs every month to the lifetimers offer when the game went F2P. Having a situation whereby a lot of the lifetimers can negate having to pay for the expansion is not beneficial to the game.

It should be noted that, during the F2P conversion, Turbine emphasized the point that VIPs who saved their TPs would be able to buy expansions with those TPs and never spend any real money.

[Bhoris_they_spider]

OK and what about the people who bought turbine points with cash??

Some people bought hundreds of dollars worth of them.

So what you have said makes no sense, these arent some freebie extras just thrown in!

and also us lifers have been around along time and we have loved and supported this game, and we only want
what we were told we would get.

You really should read up on your information before posting.

Well then it was their bad decision to buy hundreds of $s of Turbine points... Its a bit like me going to Disney World and 'investing' in a load of Disney $ and then complaining that I cant use them in my local supermarket or the like.

As for 'wanting what you were told you would get'. Fact is you will be able to buy all those things with TPs, eventually, however if Turbine chooses to massively incentivise people to pay for ROI with cash then that's their call and frankly they'd be stupid not to. $30 for the expansion will most likely give good value for money and I would expect those that care about supporting LOTRO to provide a good future would be happy to invest.

It should be noted that, during the F2P conversion, Turbine emphasized the point that VIPs who saved their TPs would be able to buy expansions with those TPs and never spend any real money.

As above, Turbine never said that you wouldn't have to wait if you choose to go down this route.

[shadowrider97]

"What we are asking for is clarity in regard to that purchase method: What, exactly, will I be able to purchase? When? In what configurations? For how much? How does this compare to the other purchase options in terms of value to me? These are all basic questions informed consumers consider before any purchase."
Lyriell, Elf Guardian of Carpe Jugulum


The fact that we are not getting this info is leading me to believe ROI is not going to offer enough to make it worthwhile buying.
((as a matter of fact a lot of the beta info we are getting (of course subject to changein the next 27 days, yeah right when have we seen turbine since WB takeover do anything in 27 day) says they are taking away from us more then we will get anyway with out purchasing ROI. Im not talking nerf Im talking takeing away virtue points that I spent time and effort to work for and then reselling them back to us in the store.))

If you have a great product you believe is an outstanding value you would be listing that value in every advert you could to show people what they are getting. NOT throwing the bone of some armour and horses to f2p folks and keeping tight lipped about everything else. not 27 days out you wouldnt.


Some blue name list the purchase options broken down by vip f2p and lifetimers and prove me wrong PLEASE

[myfreezr2]

Well then it was their bad decision to buy hundreds of $s of Turbine points... Its a bit like me going to Disney World and 'investing' in a load of Disney $ and then complaining that I cant use them in my local supermarket or the like.

No, it's more like investing a load of money in Disney and then being told that you can't get early access to the very rides you helped support.

As above, Turbine never said that you wouldn't have to wait if you choose to go down this route.

Yes, well, they never said you WOULD have to wait either.

[Southpa]

Well then it was their bad decision to buy hundreds of $s of Turbine points... Its a bit like me going to Disney World and 'investing' in a load of Disney $ and then complaining that I cant use them in my local supermarket or the like.

Bad analogy. One would logically deduce that Turbine points would be valid currency for Turbine products. Especially when they told you exactly that. Heh... it's not like he's expecting to be able to spend TP's in the Blizzard Store or something...

$30 for the expansion will most likely give good value for money and I would expect those that care about supporting LOTRO to provide a good future would be happy to invest.

100% Hypothetical. I suppose that all that increased cash flow from F2P was supposed to fund a brighter future for LotRO, too right? Instead it funded a colossal disappointment labeled as an "expansion". It's all relative, man. Look at what you used to get with an expansion. Moria >> Mirkwood >>>>> RoI. I shudder to think what will be provided the next time they expect their loyal fan base to pony-up for the future. A half-dead goat and a scaling version of SG maybe?

As above, Turbine never said that you wouldn't have to wait if you choose to go down this route.

LOL. It's about ethical business practice, not seeing how much you can get away with not giving your customers. This is new territory no matter how the fanboys spin it and it's nothing that any of us were expecting - nor anything with equal precedence in LotRO. The uproar exists for a reason, stop defending them based on your hunches that we're investing in a brighter future. That's about as lame a defense as you could possibly muster...

Most of you base your optimism on things you say will come. Others base their negativity on things that have been proven to be coming (or not coming). You tell me which is the more rational approach.

[GregJL]

3) NOW they're saying that VIPs buying the expac with TP WON'T get the associated content free, totally reneging on what they originally said.

They haven't said this. The only thing that HAS been said is that obtaining the expansion with cash WILL get the instances for free. This does not negate the possibility that buying with TP will include the instances. I'd say the probability is strong that there will be a quest pack, an instance pack, and a combo pack.