How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[Reillan]

It's not like Radiance, which basically didn't do much besides gate you

Originally, Radiance and Hope were the same thing... back then, it did quite a bit!

[Mark_J]

12 people on dragon is challenge mode.

Challenge modes that are DPS races will no doubt need some finesse. e.g. if the OD races (trees, wound challenge mode) were made in the Finesse era, I doubt that folks would be doing them in tank/DPS roles without some finesse, and would require it for anyone going on the raid.

Finesse is a vastly softer gate than radiance. Nobody without the minimum radiance (including from a token or destiny) was allowed on the radiance runs in my experience. Difficult runs (or races) will probably put a premium on finesse for tanks/DPS. But the fact that finesse is on such a huge number of items -- and some class traits too -- makes it a really better thing than radiance -- itemization much more flexible, no armor lock-in, etc. Radiance you had enough or you didn't go. Finesse you can have none as a healer. DPS/tanks can have modest amounts for non-challenge mode runs, or runs that aren't difficult for the group. Only at the extreme case, doing challenge runs that are at the edge of group ability does it seem like high finesse will be demanded...

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Bottom line is that we traded the hard gate of Radiance for a soft gate in Finesse, but make no mistake it IS a gate.

Again, the only point I was making is that the most popular Instances this game has ever had never had any gate, not even a soft gate and those Instances were immensely popular.

[Jennifern]

Finesse will still be a required stat for all end-game raiders, its as simple as that. So, in the same way that you could try raids with low radience, you will be able to try raids in RoI with low finesse.

However, it'll be the same old thing: the more finesse, the better. It will be essential for DPS so that they can hit more often. It will be essential for tanks so their taunts dont get resisted much. It will be essential for support characters so their debuffs and dps works. Only people that might get let off are healers, but im sure it'll still be important for them.


The main difference though is that finesse comes from quest rewards, instance rewards and crafted gear. If you want it, you can get it no matter what your playstyle. So, although finesse IS radience 2.0 in the way it functions, it wont be a problem as its so easy to obtain for all playstyles.

[DelgonTheWise]

Finesse will still be a required stat for all end-game raiders, its as simple as that. So, in the same way that you could try raids with low radience, you will be able to try raids in RoI with low finesse.

However, it'll be the same old thing: the more finesse, the better. It will be essential for DPS so that they can hit more often. It will be essential for tanks so their taunts dont get resisted much. It will be essential for support characters so their debuffs and dps works. Only people that might get let off are healers, but im sure it'll still be important for them.

Exactly what does finesse DO for a healer, and why are you sure it'll be important for them? Dev diary says "Finesse is a ratings-based stat that will directly reduce the Resistance of monsters as well as their Block/Parry/Evade ratings.". How much are you doing to monsters when main healing a raid? Yes, an RK healing but also doing doing backup corruption removal might care, though wardens often do most corruption duty on our raids anyway. A Mini cares when and how?

And "the more the better", not sure, but I hope not. I expect most folks to function best with some, but I at least hope it isn't the dominant stat you must stack. There should be tradeoffs between finesse, offense, crits, etc...

[Ethrnldoom]

I wouldn't call finesse so much of a gating mechanic as a stat that can boost your overall dps. Also just a little bit of finesse goes a long way towards cutting down their bpe. In the beta the DN guard set was changed so I only had one piece of finesse gear being my helm, it like instantly sat me at 7%. Mind you this is level 60 gear with lower finesse.

[Amphoras]

A lot of the armour I've seen screenshots of from beta seems to have finesse on it. Crafted armour, cloaks, etc. If its on quest items and random drops as I've heard people saying, then its going to be difficult to avoid getting some. The more of it you have the better as you'll hit more, but it looks like it will be like other stats where you have to get the balance right. If you max one stat and neglect the rest then you'll suffer in other areas.

If finesse is as easy to get as it seems, and isn't actually needed to do the instances/raids, then if players choose to start setting random limits before they let people join, then thats a problem with the players rather than the system. If you're going to do that, then why not start excluding people because they don't have enough avoidance, mitigation, morale, offence, or anything else?

[Darroc]

So to maximize my contribution to a raid, I am forced to wear certain armor pieces? Actually DOES remind me of radiance.

Don't get me wrong, I like a good gating mechanic. But please, make it passive to keep our freedom in gear choice.


Another thing. If you can obtain finesse with trash drops, quest rewards, crafting gear, why the hell did they invent that new stat in the first place? Someone enlighten me about that often mentioned "broken" BPE system.

[DelgonTheWise]

So to maximize my contribution to a raid, I am forced to wear certain armor pieces? Actually DOES remind me of radiance.

It is on armor, jewelery, some class traits or items (e.g. an RK chisel). Will no doubt be (is it already?) on some store consumables. Wouldn't be shocked if it were available for destiny as well. Much more widely available than radiance, much less restrictive in terms of itemization. For places where it is an effective gate, it is vastly softer.

[Fin.]

Turbine said radiance was implemented poorly, not that it was bad in its essence.

This is new take on it. I don't see anything wrong with it.

[Raptor38]

It works like the other stats. It gates in only that you want a certain level of that stat depending on your character.

Just like you wouldn't take a champ with might under 400 or a mini with low will, you aren't going to group with a player with zero finesse if their class uses that stat. My main is a Champ I already know I'll need to start looking for finesse along with my normal M/V/A. From the gear I've seen it is everywhere and on everything. If you need it you will not have to sacrifice your other stats for it. It does make life a lot easier. You're DPS shoots up when they aren't B/P/E your attacks any longer. Just a balancing act like the other stats.

Are you going to want it for raids and endgame content? Yes, certainly you will. Just like you want might or vitality or will. Too low and you won't be effective. How is that different than any other stat? This is nothing like radiance mainly because it isn't linked to certain gear. Everybody needed a certain amount of radiance not everybody needs finesse. There is never a set number you need to be at, and like the other stats you just need to get into a certain range to be effective.

Do you complain that you need to get gear with vitality on a guard, or that you need to get will on a minstrel? Just like there are a plethora of ways to get those stats at the number you need them there is a veritable zoo of ways to get finesse where you need it.

It gates you the same way that your other stats gate you. If I took my champ into BG with 400 might I wouldn't be very effective would I? Of course not because my class needs might. Is this a gate to me getting into the instance. No, I can get in and do it, and I will suck at it.

Radiance meant you could not even enter help even in a small way. Finesse just means you won't be a top contributor. It all depends on the people you play with whether you get into the instance. Me personally I'll take a guy with low finesse if I think the rest of us can make up for him.

[Kerin_Eldar]

The only explanation that I can come up with is that some people think raid bosses will start with extremely high B/P/E (like 80% each) and only those with high finesse will be able to hit at all. Not correct, but somewhat understandable. It will better after RoI launches and you experience it for yourself.

You stated many thing's it's NOT, so what IS it?

"Just another stat" you say, so what's the point? The game has run for over 4 years without it, why is it needed now?

It's just another grind, yet another number to add to the bunch of numbers we already have, fights could be designed without it, they have been for over 4 years, the game has no need of it, it's there for time-sink purposes and that alone.

[Kerin_Eldar]

There is no gate to any of the instances in ROI. Finesse just makes to content a little bit easier, just like having your virtues at max level or getting a 1st age LI. My point is the Finesse is just like other optional extras that make things a little bit easier but not needed

You're one of many in this thread alone that is downplaying Finesse in trying to argue it's different from Radiance in a big way .. this downplaying is in direct contradiction to how Turbine have talked about Finesse and its' huge importance to them in their instance design going forward.

You MAY be right about its' relative triviality now, I'm sure though Turbine intend to crank it up over time, they just chose to start off low-key to minimise this exact discussion: how Finesse is to become the new Radiance gate.

[Holskabard_EU]

It's just another grind, yet another number to add to the bunch of numbers we already have, fights could be designed without it, they have been for over 4 years, the game has no need of it, it's there for time-sink purposes and that alone.

It can hardly be called a grind if you naturally gather it even when killing landscape mobs whilst questing or gathering crafting mats.
It offers another means of character progression / customisation. Admitted, not the most inovative adition in that, but at least they're adding something that falls into that category.
Like others stated it's about finding a balance, for example for dps classes where is the point that it's better to go for offense rating over finesse. Same as for example with healers do I go for max. power or will I try to get more ICPR.
Arguably there's classes that hardly benefit from it depending on their playstyle even if they do raid, for example a main healer that does just heal and isn't the main corruption remover in the group doesn't need much of it.

[DelgonTheWise]

It's just another grind, yet another number to add to the bunch of numbers we already have, fights could be designed without it, they have been for over 4 years, the game has no need of it, it's there for time-sink purposes and that alone.

You use "grind" in a way I'm not familiar with. LIs are a grind in a wide variety of ways. Getting stat tomes in game is a massive (undoable?) grind. Virtues to 12 is a grind, particularly slayer deeds. Improving any stat, whether old or new, by seeking out new and better equipment than you currently have is one of the paths of character development in an MMO that many folks actually like though. Having things to seek out by running instances/crafting/etc is a feature, no? Making choices (is 200 finesse worth more than 60 vitality?) makes things interesting IMHO. This gives a new choice, and is against the other trends in the game, where choices are being removed. As in "it has more Might, my new primary stat from which all goodness flows, it is therefore good".

[Balagast]

The big difference I see between Finesse and Raidiance is two part.

1. The overall power of Radiance was too excessive. It was more important than almost all of you other stats. This forced you to go with higher Rad before making any other gear decisions.

2. Radiance was limited to the specific gear sets, and not present on any jewelry. This forced you to use a specific set of gear despite it not having the optimal set of stats. With Finesse being on a larger variety of gear and now jewelry you can pick and choose more.

I think it is more of an addition to making stat builds more interesting than anything else. Also, when it all boils down to it Raids are gated to some degree by gear. It will just as important to have some finesse as a hunter (for example) with isengard as it will to have a good RO rating and ability to manage ones power.

[Jeffor]

So to maximize my contribution to a raid, I am forced to wear certain armor pieces...

You are forced to wear certain armor pieces anyway. Would you raid in level 32 crafted gear? Would you raid with 2k total morale? It's just a new stat and it's not the only stat you have to beef up in order to raid. Would a champ raid with 150 might? Oh no might is the new radiance for champs!!

[Kryhavoc99]

You stated many thing's it's NOT, so what IS it?

"Just another stat" you say, so what's the point? The game has run for over 4 years without it, why is it needed now?

It's just another grind, yet another number to add to the bunch of numbers we already have, fights could be designed without it, they have been for over 4 years, the game has no need of it, it's there for time-sink purposes and that alone.

Just like it's a time sink to improve your primary stat? Finesse is everywhere in this expansion. I've only seen a few pieces that don't provide finesse, but those pieces have provided other stats that are just as useful. Just like any other piece of gear, it's a balancing act of what you want on your character.

Here is an example. Look at your B/P/E ratings. See what your percentages are for each. Now look at it when those ratings are reduced by, say, 8%. Let's say that figure is just from quest rewards and the decisions you made when acquiring gear. This is without trying to maximize Finesse. The math-inclined can see that even that small percentage of Finesse will have some effect on a battle, which can only be to your benefit.

For the most part, you will be hard pressed to avoid getting any finesse from any gear (world drops, quest, crafted) as the more desirable gear will have some finesse on some of the pieces. As with any stat, what you choose for your character is your choice.

Do I want more melee defence or more melee crit? Do I improve my primary stat or one of the secondary stats? The only way finesse will be counted as a 'gating' stat is by those hardnosed, diehard players that have to have everything 'just so' or you won't be in my raid.

Personally, I don't play with those people, they take all the fun out of a game. I am smart enough to make my own choices on what gear to wear. When it comes to the armour, the crafted guild armour looks to be robust enough to wear to grind out the S4M's for the first four pieces of raid armour, and it may be enough even to go on the Draigoch Raid. Not entirely sure of that because we haven't had much time to test that raid yet.

[Chris91]

They didn't have to gate the Rift, Helegrod or any of the SoA Instances and they have been the most popular Instances the game ever had...

Finesse IS a gate, just not as unforgiving as Radiance...

If Finesse is a gate then ICPR is a gate to..you could try to raid with 100 ICPR but you´ll run out of power after 15 seconds and do as much damage as you would without finesse (and finesse is almost as easy to get as ICPR)

Radiance was a real gate, Finesse is just another stat needed to increase your performance

[Jeffor]

If Finesse is a gate then ICPR is a gate to..you could try to raid with 100 ICPR but you´ll run out of power after 15 seconds and do as much damage as you would without finesse (and finesse is almost as easy to get as ICPR)

Radiance was a real gate, Finesse is just another stat needed to increase your performance

Exactly. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand. I need lots of morale to tank in raids so I guess morale is the new radiance as well? No it's always been like that. I guess there just isn't enough drama excreted from that line of thought.

[Mark_J]

If Finesse is a gate then ICPR is a gate to..you could try to raid with 100 ICPR but you´ll run out of power after 15 seconds and do as much damage as you would without finesse (and finesse is almost as easy to get as ICPR)

Radiance was a real gate, Finesse is just another stat needed to increase your performance

I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances, the mobs will have it and you'll need to have it as well. It's not required or even necessary for normal gameplay such as questing (like ICPR would be). It's not a Stat like any other you have, it's a gate to allow you to complete the end game Instances.

To extrapolate your flawed analogies I could say a Character is is a gate to the entire game, if you don't have one you can't play! That makes about as much sense as claiming Finesse is just like any other Stat IMO...

[DelgonTheWise]

I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances, the mobs will have it and you'll need to have it as well. It's not required or even necessary for normal gameplay such as questing (like ICPR would be). It's not a Stat like any other you have, it's a gate to allow you to complete the end game Instances.

ICPR is not required for questing at all far as I can see. Quest mobs generally die before my power pool is exhausted even if I had 0 ICPR. IMHO ICPR is actually largely a raiding/instance stat, and mostly comes into play in long boss fights, so the analogy to finesse isn't bad. Honestly in PVE questing, how much do you need of resistances in general? BPE? There are lots of things that are quite useful in a raid that aren't needed at all when questing...

[Aloro]

Finesse is indeed just another stat. The way it is obtained and utilized is so different to radiance. It is more similar to our derived stats; like offence and critical ratings. But there are still those who have concerns regarding finesse. Based on what? I don't know. No rational explanation. All I see is "Radiance 2.0, Radiance 2.0"! This isn't scepticism. It is irrational pessimism.

Yup. Finesse doesn't function like Radiance in any meaningful way. People making these comparisons aren't thinking it through.

Radiance:
* Was a "hard gate" (you must be this tall to ride; all or nothing)
* Was only available on raid/instance gear

Finesse:
* Is a stat that makes you better at something (it's nice to have but not actually "necessary"; more is "good")
* Is available on crafted, quested, bartered, and raid/instance gear

[Mark_J]

ICPR is not required for questing at all far as I can see. Quest mobs generally die before my power pool is exhausted even if I had 0 ICPR. IMHO ICPR is actually largely a raiding/instance stat, and mostly comes into play in long boss fights, so the analogy to finesse isn't bad. Honestly in PVE questing, how much do you need of resistances in general? BPE? There are lots of things that are quite useful in a raid that aren't needed at all when questing...

Well I said 'normal game play' (not just questing) which would include Skirmishes. If you're like me you don't take your time through Skirmishes you run through them quickly and efficiently and that takes a respectable amount of ICPR, especially for my Captain and Hunter...


Edited to add;

ICPR is pretty important in the Moors too...

[Aloro]

So to maximize my contribution to a raid, I am forced to wear certain armor pieces?

That's a curious sentence insofar as it relies on a strange premise (that it is necessary or desirable to "maximize" your contribution). Technically, though, sure... this has always been true. If you want to "maximize" your contribution, right now, you'll need a First Age weapon and OD armour (for most classes anyhow). But here's where this falls apart: you can reach and exceed the minimum thresholds for gear quality without maximizing your contribution. So then the question becomes, "What is good enough in this context?"

[Aloro]

I'll try to state this as simply as possible. Finesse is a soft gate that will be required to complete the end game instances

No more so than Morale is a soft gate, or Power, or ICPR. You need all of these at decent levels to complete pretty much anything remotely challenging in this game. Calling Finesse a "gate" of any sort is honestly misleading.

If you're a Hunter and you use bow-chants to reduce your target's ability to mitigate damage, or if you're an RK with a chisel that adds to your penetration, then you're already using something that is functionally identical to Finesse. Hunters with good bow-chants and RKs with good chisels do more damage. We don't however collectively fret over this; it's just a stat that good players try to keep high. That's all.