Rune-keeper planned changes with Isengard

[Alad.]

@Unixbomber:
Thanks for the tooltips and other info; i'll update the initial post.

It looks like the Fall to X skills has been updated, but Fall to Our Wrath hasn't (the morale reduction is too low to be considered the sum of both skills especially since i suppose you're level 75 will a lot of Will which would increase that number; the 10% is also too low, and there's no reduction in mitigation on the tooltip).

As for Mending Verse critting at 1100, it would really be more useful to us (me) to know what the skill tooltip says, and what the other healing-buffing stats are (outgoing healing %, Tactical healing rank, healing and HoT legacies, Mending Verse legacy). 1100 on a MV crit is really not much for level 75 with a maxed Outgoing Healing, especially considering the higher incoming dps. If I deduct around 30% due to maxed OH and 10 more ranks on the satchel's THR, we're down to a crit of about 750 at level 65 right now. That corresponds to a crit with a multiplier of about 1.5 (non-crit=500), the minimum obtainable today at 65 and not even with maxed Fate. So not a huge nerf, it seems, but still a nerf. I won't be able to tell unless someone gives level 65 data before and after, with same gear equipped.


There is one other aspect that has always been hush-hush and so they could do anything they wanted with it without us noticing: The effect of Fate on Tactical Critical Multiplier. I've never seen any data on that relationship. By reducing or removing that effect, they could reduce all tactical damage and healing in a way that nobody can pinpoint.

[Alad.]

Thinking about some basic dps considerations between fire and lightning:

Lighting is instant, no inductions. Fire is purely DoT. (Now they've changed one skill to offload all its damage at once, but only after an induction). Wanting to make fire dps equal to lightning dps would mean not only reducing fire inductions, but also increasing fire damage considerably, and they haven't really done that. Fire DoTs would have to be increased by at least a factor of 2 to come close to lightning dps, even considering that you can stack fire DoTs. (What's the dps from a fire DoT? 50-70 off the top of my head).

The other way to increase fire dps would be to turn skills into AoE skills, and they did that too with Fiery Ridicule. It then becomes possible to approach lightning dps by using only AoE skills, and stacking DoTs.

I don't believe a regular RK would run around solo pulling multiple mobs with his AoE fire skills, so they would most probably use those skills in a group. And here comes a problem: How does a RK handle mutiple mobs attacking him and survive? How will this disrupt the group's aggro management? Will they be loved for doing high AoE dps? At least with high lightning dps, if you pull a big guy you can also finish him off by yourself and not disrupt the fight too much.

[Ellery01]

That is definitely incorrect Alad. Currently fire DPS can come very close to lightning DPS using optimal rotations with no affect wipes. This is because of everything you can have ticking at once. Fire damage most certainly does NOT need to be doubled to be equittable to fire.

The reason lightning is so much better right now is a combination of mobility (which is huge), affect wipes and power cost. But, in an ideal situation (say parsing on turtle) lightning isn't going to beat fire by a lot (really will come down to what crits and for how much), and it'll generate a fair bit more aggro doing it.

The RoI update is basically gonna have fire being the clear cut no doubt about it choice for group PvE content. And I like that.

[AkhorahilEvernight]

I see a ton of confusion in this (and other) threads about things being "better" or "worse", with people misunderstanding each other and arguing some very poor points in some cases. So let's try to unpack this.

1. Better or worse in absolute terms. By this, we simply mean "just how much damage/heal do you do in raw numbers". With the level cap increased by 10, I should damn well hope that every single skill is improved in absolute terms.

2. Better or worse in a by-level perspective. This will determine well you perform compared to the game world -- how well will your various skills work against, say, at-level monsters. How long does it take to kill a normal monster by lightning, for instance. Unlike absolute values, this is a relevant measurement. When we say "Ceaseless Argument has been nerfed", we mean that it performs worse than before at level, relative to the opposition. Trying to argue that this nerf hasn't happened by pointing at absolute numbers is missing the point entirely.

3. Better or worse compared to other classes. This is a third measurement, one that is critically important when it comes to being selected for a group. It measures not your performance against the world, but your performance compared to other classes. For instance, let's say (for the case of argument) that RK heals were nerfed, but that higher outgoing healing values make up for this. However, if Minstrel healing isn't similarly nerfed (again, just for the case of argument), that would mean that they benefit from the raised outgoing heal numbers, without suffering from the nerf, and will hence heal better than Rune-Keepers, becoming (even more) preferred healer picks.

This can cause some non-intuitive outcomes: For instance, if RK healing is improved even on a by-level perspective (case 2), it could still be that we're relatively worse off than other healers. Also, even if RKs are nerfed in healing on a by-level perspective, we could still be as viable as healers as ever, assuming Minstrels got similarly nerfed, and we're as well off comparatively speaking.

I hope this will help keep the discussion on track -- when someone says "CA has been nerfed", they probably don't mean it in absolute numbers at L75, so arguing against it by saying "no, no, absolute damage is the same" is silly -- that's proof the nerf did happen, if damage is unchanged!. Similarly, when someone says "RK healing has been nerfed", they probably mean "...compared to Minstrels", in which case it's pointless to point to the raised cap on outgoing healing as a counter-argument (as this affects both classes equally).

[revoked]

Another thing to remember about fire/lightning in the new world is that the boss DoT wipe at phase change mechanic has been removed. We should no longer have to reapply everything from scratch every time a boss changes phase or goes temporarily neutral.

[Morecrabs]

This is Live from the beta THIS MORNING


Huge F'n Nerf you people attacked Me and called me a liar, the Traiting bonus for Fury of storm is 2 % per trait.. for a MAX of 14% NOT 35

KNOW what your talking about b4 you call someone a LIAR

[Ellery01]

I love that you worked so hard to point out how badly your comprehension skills fail :P

The traiting bonus is 2% DAMAGE per solitary thunder trait, which is a huge gain since it's basically 10%+ more damage for FoS that we never had before.

The 3 trait bonus clearly shows 25% FoS crit multiplier in your nicely illustrated screenshot.

[Runesi_EU]

This is Live from the beta THIS MORNING


Huge F'n Nerf you people attacked Me and called me a liar, the Traiting bonus for Fury of storm is 2 % per trait.. for a MAX of 14% NOT 35

KNOW what your talking about b4 you call someone a LIAR

err... perhaps you should look at that again

current trait set bonus

2 Equipped:-10 Chilling Rhetoric Cooldown Chilling Rhetoric usable at all Attunements and -10s Cooldown
3 Equipped:+30% Fury of Storm Critical Multiplier -5 Shocking Words Cooldown
4 Equipped:+3% Run Speed -15 Sustaining Bolt Cooldown
5 Equipped:Use of Perfect Imagery

So the new one you posted in that image has +25% crit multipler for the 3 set bonus instead of 30% but you can also get an additional 14% extra damage for the set bonus which simply didn't exist before.

Edit: so quick to reply I didn't read Ellery01's post who had already pointed out your error, sorry about that.

[Morecrabs]

err... perhaps you should look at that again

current trait set bonus

2 Equipped:-10 Chilling Rhetoric Cooldown Chilling Rhetoric usable at all Attunements and -10s Cooldown
3 Equipped:+30% Fury of Storm Critical Multiplier -5 Shocking Words Cooldown
4 Equipped:+3% Run Speed -15 Sustaining Bolt Cooldown
5 Equipped:Use of Perfect Imagery

So the new one you posted in that image has +25% crit multipler for the 3 set bonus instead of 30% but you can also get an additional 14% extra damage for the set bonus which simply didn't exist before.

Edit: so quick to reply I didn't read Ellery01's post who had already pointed out your error, sorry about that.

Ok, anyone have a cook that can bake crow? I really did hang myself this time. I will say this in my own defense however the last time I checked the beta the crit multiplier was simply absent and the measly 2% per trait was in its place I am cowed for now

I still think zombie columbus should locate the closest box of matches set himself on fire to make room for an actual developer who bothers to communicate with the community history has proven zombie swings the Nerf bat and doesn't bother with what damage is caused till the next update making the community wait Six months for watered down repairs

[Zombie_Columbus]

Just a heads up, a few of those patch notes ended up getting either changed or removed. I can't easily do an itemized list of which changed, but I can promise that in information in the RoI final release notes and the Dev Diary will be up to date.

I'd like to point one thing out:
A lot of people are taking the "laser focus on one thing and make proclamations based on that one data point" approach to these changes. For example, when looking through the healing changes one at a time, it's easy to call a lot of individual things a nerf, and to create the impression of global nerfs. However in practice, with the 4 set bonus (which is up to 2% per trait now) with potentially a 5th, 6th and 7th healing traited added in, net healing has in no way been nerfed. Much like Orion's changes to the Minstrels (who received blanket reductions in all heals) the class did not truly suffer, because of the bonuses in the traitlines and skill plays. I urge you to look at details, but then to step back and think holistically.

To Alad: I really enjoyed reading your analysis, though I found it a little surprising to read the word nerf over 40 times, often called out in red. You'd think the RK was going to stop being an engine of unbridled destruction and restoration! I can't wait for you to see the Dev Diary, and to hear your analysis once you get your hands on a well geared level 75 keeper ^_^


Edit: On reading what initially I wrote, I realized how much I love, to the point of excess, sentences with far, far too many comma breaks. It is, regrettably, how I both speak and think. Which is to say, I overly explain too many things at once in a single thought, in an attempt to make sure all my bases are covered, so what i'm attempting to communicate comes across properly, without any possibility of being misconstrued.

However, being overly long-winded and rambling will sometimes either confuse or insult people. Yay!

[Eldrandir]

...many valuable words....

As with the hunters, thanks for finally talking to us and bringing some good news.

[Nevril]

However in practice, with the 4 set bonus (which is up to 2% per trait now) and potentially a 5th, 6th and 7th healing traited added in, net healing has in no way been nerfed.

This is exactly what I liked most about the changes, cause this way an Healing RK (I mean traited healing) can be a good healer and a worse DPSer and Viceversa. Actually, being able to switch between 2 roles with a big effectiveness in the one you are traited for and a good effectiveness in the one you're not traited for can be a little overpowered.

Moving a bigger part of the healing rate and the dps rate on the 4-trait line increases the gap between the two roles. Someone can call this a nerf but I actually think is more balanced.

[Raven-EU]

... words that bring hope ...

Thankyou ZC I hope you have time and patience to not only spell out the pure class changes but to also show, or perhaps demonstrate, how the other game changes would affect, impact, interact, and improve the class that I love the most in this game, hopefully in a form that allows your explanations to flow freely and unbound, although keeping within the bounds of the subject being elaborated on, in such a manner that all doubts will be quenched and banished!

[Ellery01]

Uh, what Raven said, I think.

I'm excited to see the dev diary and glad to be reminded of your presence, ZC.

[Overtone]

Your statements would hold more weight if I hadn't specifically tested a variety of builds, traits and gear against R15 creeps with full Battlefield Promotion.

You are correct. More data is needed. Would be nice to see some parses and combat logs from Beta. All we've seen so far is a sub-par combat log on a Training Dummy and heresay.

I can't wait for you to see the Dev Diary, and to hear your analysis once you get your hands on a well geared level 75 keeper ^_^

Thanks for chiming in ZC. I think this pretty much captures it. The RK is getting a heavy overhaul in all aspects and we are all chomping at the bit to play with the changes.

[Chris91]

I think the discussion about the CA came from people testing different beta builds

CA was nerfed in terms of base damage, in the old build (5% crit multi per trait) people did notice, in the new one (25% crit multi and 2% damage per trait) the nerf was balanced out by the additional FoS damage per trait

[Alad.]

This is Live from the beta THIS MORNING


Huge F'n Nerf you people attacked Me and called me a liar, the Traiting bonus for Fury of storm is 2 % per trait.. for a MAX of 14% NOT 35

KNOW what your talking about b4 you call someone a LIAR

Thanks a lot for that pic Crabs!! I need more of those! LOL You have a level 65 RK it seems, please take pics of all the skill and trait tooltips on live now, and the same on beta, without changing any equipment or traits! You would do me a great favour and we'd be able to see more clearly. Thanks in advance!

PS: I updated the initial post with new data on the Yellow trait line set bonuses.

[Alad.]

Just a heads up, a few of those patch notes ended up getting either changed or removed. I can't easily do an itemized list of which changed, but I can promise that in information in the RoI final release notes and the Dev Diary will be up to date.

I'd like to point one thing out:
A lot of people are taking the "laser focus on one thing and make proclamations based on that one data point" approach to these changes. For example, when looking through the healing changes one at a time, it's easy to call a lot of individual things a nerf, and to create the impression of global nerfs. However in practice, with the 4 set bonus (which is up to 2% per trait now) with potentially a 5th, 6th and 7th healing traited added in, net healing has in no way been nerfed. Much like Orion's changes to the Minstrels (who received blanket reductions in all heals) the class did not truly suffer, because of the bonuses in the traitlines and skill plays. I urge you to look at details, but then to step back and think holistically.

To Alad: I really enjoyed reading your analysis, though I found it a little surprising to read the word nerf over 40 times, often called out in red. You'd think the RK was going to stop being an engine of unbridled destruction and restoration! I can't wait for you to see the Dev Diary, and to hear your analysis once you get your hands on a well geared level 75 keeper ^_^


Edit: On reading what initially I wrote, I realized how much I love, to the point of excess, sentences with far, far too many comma breaks. It is, regrettably, how I both speak and think. Which is to say, I overly explain too many things at once in a single thought, in an attempt to make sure all my bases are covered, so what i'm attempting to communicate comes across properly, without any possibility of being misconstrued.

However, being overly long-winded and rambling will sometimes either confuse or insult people. Yay!

LOL! It's a pleasure reading you too, ZC

I'm certain every class will be more powerful after levelling 10 more levels, this is one of the core aspects of an RPG, after all, and one of the enjoyments we get together with getting new skills. Wouldn't it be nicer if one simply went forward rather than going backwards then forwards? I'm really curious about that as it seems you (the devs) feel an urge or necessity to do that (it's happened before when Moria came out).

Could you please do something about all those increases in neutral attunement shifts? They're bound to hurt both healing and dps (and power), since they'll just delay us whatever role we're playing, and discourage the use of our buffs.

Thanks a lot for commenting here! Do stay for a while longer and please, if at all possible, give numbers in your dev notes regarding changes.

[Morecrabs]

The attunement shifts wouldn't be horrible if enamels were more readily accessible but the only reasonably attainable enamel is white one the rest are astronomically harder to create in extended quantities

[Raven-EU]

Uh, what Raven said, I think.

I see that was 30 minutes well spent trying to get it all into one sentence :P

[AkhorahilEvernight]

Much like Orion's changes to the Minstrels (who received blanket reductions in all heals) the class did not truly suffer, because of the bonuses in the traitlines and skill plays. I urge you to look at details, but then to step back and think holistically.

While it's nice to hear from Blue, I'm not sure I quite trust that statement. We were told the same thing about the last bout of lightning nerfs -- that they weren't actually nerfs, even though they clearly were.

I guess only time will tell, but I have to confess that I'm a bit skeptical at this point. If you really are nerfing something -- as with Lightning last time around -- I far prefer a reasoned argument why it was a bit too good and had to be cut down, than trying to maintain that it wasn't really a nerf. On the other hand, maybe it will work out -- what does the actual healing parses look like?

(Also, if you're reading this, for the love of God, please give us a toggle to turn off the AoE from FR with Conflagration of Runes! Otherwise, some tightly crowd-controlled fights will mean either that you have to either unslot the trait (and then reslot it later, while the raid waits), or not use any FR in that fight (which, since it's the basic Fire attack, is Bad).)

EDIT: To add a more positive note, the job with Fire looks great. I'm glad that you identified the DoT-wipes on bosses as a major problem -- it made balancing Fire against both wipe and non-wipe bosses all but impossible. Best possible fix was to just remove those wipes, so that's great!

[Alad.]

(Also, if you're reading this, for the love of God, please give us a toggle to turn off the AoE from FR with Conflagration of Runes! Otherwise, some tightly crowd-controlled fights will mean either that you have to either unslot the trait (and then reslot it later, while the raid waits), or not use any FR in that fight (which, since it's the basic Fire attack, is Bad).)

There's an easy way to do that:
Add: "Fiery Ridicule becomes an AoE skill", to either the Basic Riffler, or the Riffler of Hope.
It makes perfect sense to choose those rifflers too if you think about it for a second.

And how to compensate for removing that from the Conflagration of Runes trait?
Add: "Fiery Ridicule pulse interval is halved" to the trait.

[AkhorahilEvernight]

There's an easy way to do that:
Add: "Fiery Ridicule becomes an AoE skill", to either the Basic Riffler, or the Riffler of Hope.
It makes perfect sense to choose those rifflers too if you think about it for a second.

That's a great idea, and easier to implement than mine. Thumbs up!

[Yogol]

when looking through the healing changes one at a time, it's easy to call a lot of individual things a nerf, and to create the impression of global nerfs. However in practice, with the 4 set bonus (which is up to 2% per trait now) with potentially a 5th, 6th and 7th healing traited added in, net healing has in no way been nerfed.

If you heal less than now, with the same number of heal traits than now, it's a nerf. The fact that you can offset the nerf by only focussing on healing and give up any other trait, doesn't mean it is not a nerf.

Basically, when you used to trait 4/3, you could heal at 95%.
Now, you need to trait 6/1 or even 7/0 to do the same heals.

That means you're nerfed, no matter how you look at it.

[CpTcrunchyy]

The attunement shifts wouldn't be horrible if enamels were more readily accessible but the only reasonably attainable enamel is white one the rest are astronomically harder to create in extended quantities

This ^^

If you heal less than now, with the same number of heal traits than now, it's a nerf. The fact that you can offset the nerf by only focussing on healing and give up any other trait, doesn't mean it is not a nerf.
Basically, when you used to trait 4/3, you could heal at 95%.
Now, you need to trait 6/1 or even 7/0 to do the same heals.

That means you're nerfed, no matter how you look at it.

This^^

While I'm happy fire will actually be usable it will still have no place in the moor's. Unless you're fighting low ranked nublets you'll be dead before you finish casting...
Even with the 0 cast time you still have to stand still to cast it. In the moor's standing still with lower than average HP and light armor = a quick death.