Hunter Q&A with your host, Zombie Columbus

[Theandil]

I bet 100g our hunter diary will be last one...
But I nowhere find suggestion of changes what you doing in RoI. But anyway GL ! Maybe it not will be fail like it seems.

*Logging dworfy chimp*

[Kongas]

I bet 100g our hunter diary will be last one...
But I nowhere find suggestion of changes what you doing in RoI. But anyway GL ! Maybe it not will be fail like it seems.

*Logging dworfy chimp*

Well, if it isn't it will be by blind chance rather than because they are considered changes made after well-informed discussion and fine tuned after extensive testing and feedback.

I'm trying hard to hope for the best but the lack of communication, discussion compounded by an act of censorship when info was actually posted (which I have not seen) is not encouraging. We're being presented with an inadequately tested fait accompli.

If other classes are also becoming dps classes then sure as hell hunters should be being powered up in their dps role not made to work hard just to maybe be able to stay on a par with what they were previously. Because we don't have any secondary role to speak of.

[Eckenbrand]

Dear Devs,

Please nerf the Burglar trait Trickster, as it will be THE trait that most Burglars slot now thanks to the 3-target Startling Twist.

Also nerf Now For Wrath as the majority of Captains slot this trait

Also nerf X trait for Y class because the majority of class Y uses trait/skill/trait-line/skill combination.

Going by this logic, eventually every trait/skill/etc will be *the trait* or *the skill* slotted/used by a class in an attempt to make their class work, until they nerf/remove/kill that particular skill/trait or such, and the classes move on to a different trait/skill in an attempt to make their class work again, and the cycle will repeat until all of the skills and traits are so nerfed into the ground that our auto-attacks will deal more damage.

[Belechael]

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that.

On par?

ZC, if a heavy armor damage dealer and a healer-damage dealer's DPS is 'on par' with a straight damage dealer, WHY would any team want to include that last character when they can get a champ or a rk with far more versatility and flexibility?

The only answer I can come up with is that I am their friend and they will take my hunter instead of my RK or champ as a challenge.

Every class should have an edge over other classes that do the same thing, alas, the hunters do not have anything to show vs RKs and champs. With tier 2 dps classes now coming close to tier 1, there is no reason to take an averagely equipped hunter over a well equipped burglar or LM, or am I reading this wrong?

[Raezzor]

I'll start by saying I haven't read every post in this thread, but a fair bit of them in the last 3 pages. Good points being made all around. My question is this: if you changed Strong Draw because it made PS the "go to" focus shot, why remove the CD on IPS? Even with the CD and costing 3 focus, it's STILL our goto focus shot since the CDs on Blood Arrow and MS are rather long, and RoA... well... yeah, if THAT's the new goto focus shot, bleh....

And ya, no ranged interrupt, 1 ranged corruption removal which, though it does remove 3 corruptions, is only usable 50% of the time and requires either 6 focus or a class trait slot which MIGHT make it cost less... both of these are meh.

As to us being on par with RK/Champ for dps, the points made by Lowj are accurate. I have less of a problem with RKs being on par with us since it does require being traited and attuned for dps. But saying that a melee should do as much or more dps because they have to run after targets is pure bunk. There are plenty of fights where I move as much as if not more then the melees do which not only interrupts my shot cycle but also steals focus. I can also guarantee that a hunter does far less DPS on the move then any melee. Additionally, if the tanks in the group are doing their job there should be little running around as it is. If movement is mandatory in a fight it's usually mandatory for everyone (IE, Poison, most of the DN bosses, etc.)

[Fin.]

The only answer I can come up with is that I am their friend and they will take my hunter instead of my RK or champ as a challenge.

Every class should have an edge over other classes that do the same thing, alas, the hunters do not have anything to show vs RKs and champs. With tier 2 dps classes now coming close to tier 1, there is no reason to take an averagely equipped hunter over a well equipped burglar or LM, or am I reading this wrong?

When players start to stack 4+ burglars for every raid, maybe someone will realize things are not going as predicted.

[MurkyMajare]

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that.

On par?

ZC, if a heavy armor damage dealer and a healer-damage dealer's DPS is 'on par' with a straight damage dealer, WHY would any team want to include that last character when they can get a champ or a rk with far more versatility and flexibility?

Sorry, if you can get an on par damage output and still get the benefit of being able to wear heavy armor, have awesome aoe dps and off tank, or be able to kite and dps, lightning dps without induction, or the choice to swap to healing, then a hunter joining a team is nothing but a Pity Invite. And sorry, I don't buy the 'secondary role' as CC. All other classes have some cc abilities and hunter's are at least roughly equal to others, and yet you don't claim that a RK's ability to stun/daze as qualifying them as a CC secondary role.

Why not just be honest and admit that HUNTERS CURRENTLY HAVE NO SECONDARY ROLE. Not unless 'team poison curer' or 'campfire maker' or 'plz port me sir' qualify us for that. As soon as you guys admit (or realize) that you have desinged Hunter with no REAL secondary role (real as in RK having a REAL duo role of heal-dps, or REAL role to off-tank and aoe-dps like a champ), the sooner you would realize that if others can do 'on par' dps as a hunter, then who the heck would want a hunter in their raids? No thanks, I don't want to take Pity Invites from teams.

Agreed.

Hunters should not be "on par" on sustainable (single target) dps with the champ and rk. They should be (far) above it.

RKs also heal, champs also aoe (and tank).

As mentioned we have no secondary role at all. (And no, our weak CC does not count. Sure we can go CC in Disease Wing in OD if it means we will not go otherwise, but come on...). Not only do champs and rks have secondary roles, but they can jump into them without the need for retraiting. (And if they do retrait, they are even more good at it).

As for "on par"... there is also a major difference with being "on par" in first place, and being "on par" in third place.


But a question to ZC - is there any real point to this Q&A? I mean, will you actually listen to the concerns posted here and change things accordingly, or will our concerns just be read as whining. (Which the developers already have told us that a) hunters always do, and b) nerfs are good for us, in their oh, so, very funny item from Forochel).

[Lowj]

Every class should have an edge over other classes that do the same thing, alas, the hunters do not have anything to show vs RKs and champs.

This, my friend, is exactly how it should be... well said! Every single class should have something they excel in, that only they excel in, which makes them interesting for Fellowships and Raids to invite. With Champions AND Rune-keepers being on par for single-target DPS, Champs still by far the Kings of AoE DPS and ALSO now able to be a full-on tank, and RKs ofc a (backup) healer, the 'thing' that Hunters excel in is no longer special to us, making us the least valuable choice of the three.

But a question to ZC - is there any real point to this Q&A? I mean, will you actually listen to the concerns posted here and change things accordingly, or will our concerns just be read as whining. (Which the developers already have told us that a) hunters always do, and b) nerfs are good for us, in their oh, so, very funny item from Forochel).

Honestly, and I don't mean this in any way rude towards ZC, merely how it seems to me... I don't think there's a point to it in that sense. My feeling from how this has played out is that decisions are final and this is simply Q&A as in: ask me about facts and I'll tell you. I don't think it was ever intended to be a discussion, but I might be wrong.

[Kongas]

I don't think it was ever intended to be a discussion, but I might be wrong.

If they wanted a discussion we'd have had a Dev Diary in good time to debate it. Instead we had a half-baked set of proposals that were loudly rejected, then months of silence, then a fait accompli they all knew full well would cause the horses to bolt.

DPS is what hunters do and now by their own admission what they want everyone to do. The only possible dev line for hunters now is to put us firmly and indisputably back at the top of the dps tree. Instead it seems we may, if traited right and played right and are able to leap through all the hoops to get focus, we might just about manage to keep up with others without having a secondary role worth spitting on.

I feel the Hunter class uniqueness is basically being sacrificed so that all other classes can become dps monsters also.

This is not to mention the apparent morale and power losses we'll have to take to stack the agility needed to keep up with the dps Jones's.

As for the ridiculous argument that SD had to be nerfed because people were using it ...

[Mithernil]

This, my friend, is exactly how it should be... well said! Every single class should have something they excel in, that only they excel in, which makes them interesting for Fellowships and Raids to invite. With Champions AND Rune-keepers being on par for single-target DPS, Champs still by far the Kings of AoE DPS and ALSO now able to be a full-on tank, and RKs ofc a (backup) healer, the 'thing' that Hunters excel in is no longer special to us, making us the least valuable choice of the three.

Hey we ARE unique (in the way Hunters are being treated) and we DO excel (going forward in solo-play)....

Honestly, and I don't mean this in any way rude towards ZC, merely how it seems to me... I don't think there's a point to it in that sense. My feeling from how this has played out is that decisions are final and this is simply Q&A as in: ask me about facts and I'll tell you. I don't think it was ever intended to be a discussion, but I might be wrong.

I agree, there was not much discussion (yet !!!), apart from a rather monologues "eat this", "swallow that" and "our numbers tell us xyc", but hey, at least our situation is pretty lore-conform!!!
Remember this?
"There never was much hope, just a fool's hope...."



By the way, concerning numbers: What's the ratio in this thread alone (don't know how many speak from Beta experience, and/or simply from what they have read and/or heard so far) in regards to people being negative about the changes, people being positive and those neutral (or meaningless)?
I gave up counting after four pages and landed at about: 90% negative, 4% positive and 6% neutral/meaningless...(and I am not talking posts, but individual's impressions)
Might this also be taken into the "black-box, kill all arguments, numbers considerations"?

[Kheld_GB]

Bend over & pass the Vaseline Hunters.

[kballard]

Wow. I rarely post on the forums since I prefer just reading but this thread can get old fast.

I am not necessarily condoning all ZC's changes to the class, but...overreact much?
I understand why ZC doesn't post much on the the thread seeing the immediate backlash he gets; he probably gets more information just watching discussions that he doesn't add his two cents to.

Granted, I am not in the beta, so I have little experience of the changes first hand, but I have been playing for a while and am one of those "number-crunching" guys. So far on my server, no class can touch my single target dps by a long shot, which is expected seeing our role, but I seriously doubt that these changes will completely cripple us as the top single target dps. Sure we have to relearn rotations and watch our focus much closer...that is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, I am nervous about Strong Draw changes, but that simply means I will shift a few shots from focus shots to induction shots in my rotation. The stance changes are awesome imo. I will be able to do alot with them. However, I would like to echo the suggestion by other players and change the change to an instant cast or at least make it instant when clicked but maybe a end animation. I do get frustrated when I don't time it perfectly and can't change stances efficiently.

Split shot sounds intriguing. I will be doing ALOT of testing with it. (Im one of those guys that has 4 identical bows to test each legacies contribution dps in each of my three builds w/ the help of lots of scrolls of renewal, so I love new skills to play with)

I LOVE the changes to the trapper line. It was hinted that the dmg debuff may go away back in like Feb. and I am glad to see it.

I know probably no one will listen, but I plead that you ask useful questions and not wear ZC out with whining. (See comment on RK Q&A lol http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...70#post5655370)

See ya'll in Isen

[Fin.]

I know probably no one will listen, but I plead that you ask useful questions and not wear ZC out with whining.

Hmm there is plenty of questions in this thread. Why post more if the previous ones are not answered?

[kballard]

Hmm there is plenty of questions in this thread. Why post more if the previous ones are not answered?

I completely agree with you. That is the reason I actually read every post in this thread. However, I would hope you agree that useful questions is not the case for the majority of posts here. You have to shift through it all to find the useful stuff. I echoed only a few of the good questions mentioned here. Some I remember off the top of my head are: quicker stance changes or at least get rid of the initial delay, considering adding a focus to SB (or even maybe a trait that might give a 25% or 50% chance to apply to soften the loss of strong draw, testing parses comparison (which turbine won't give out most likely), and many others.

But your point is good that contributers of good questions have little reason to post if ZC won't answer, on the other hand we have kind have forced him into the current situation.

[CWood]

...I seriously doubt that these changes will completely cripple us as the top single target dps.

Actually, I'm (personally) not concerned with the DPS balance. That usually sorts itself out, whether the "class jingoists" are happy or not. What I am concerned about is the rhythm of hunter combat. As it stands currently, it takes a very specific build to give the class any semblance of flow, and I can't see the changes helping that by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe I'm wrong, but I usually have a pretty good nose for changes I will (the most recent pass) or won't (MoM) like.

[nolins12]

Lmao at the "Hunters shout out dps everyone by far because we dont have heavy armor!" people.

[kballard]

Actually, I'm (personally) not concerned with the DPS balance. That usually sorts itself out, whether the "class jingoists" are happy or not. What I am concerned about is the rhythm of hunter combat. As it stands currently, it takes a very specific build to give the class any semblance of flow, and I can't see the changes helping that by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe I'm wrong, but I usually have a pretty good nose for changes I will (the most recent pass) or won't (MoM) like.

That brings up an interesting perspective. I think the two disruptors might be lack of focus and iQS. Since I'm not in beta, can anyone confirm if a focus shot will cancel the end animation on IQB? Definitely changes stances (if it is like live) is very disruptive to flow.

[Smugo]

The end animation on IQS isn't an issue now, that was fixed recently. Personally as a Precision/Huntsman style hunter I have had no issues with the flow of my rotations, as long as I trait right, and keep an eye on my focus. I don't feel focus "starved" but I do need to be more careful than before.

[drexele]

um... this will seem bad to most of you if i am incorrect (which since i was a lvl 5 noob at the time and didnt under stand any thing in the forums) but the last time we got a big update didnt most hunters complain before it came out but then found out the changes were great after u got used to them? (again i was a lvl 5 noob when that happend and didnt understand much) oh and this is not a zc question but rather a general hunter question so zc u dont need to answer this one (however i wouldnt mind an answer to my question about purge poison)

oh and am i the only one who misses the fog of war? i think it made it kind of fun and helped me know what parts of a region i havnt been to

[Eldrandir]

um... this will seem bad to most of you if i am incorrect (which since i was a lvl 5 noob at the time and didnt under stand any thing in the forums) but the last time we got a big update didnt most hunters complain before it came out but then found out the changes were great after u got used to them?

I was happy 10 minutes after logging into beta (Took me 5 mins to retrait and 4 to find a mob), and everyone I talked to was as well.

oh and am i the only one who misses the fog of war? i think it made it kind of fun and helped me know what parts of a region i havnt been to

I miss it, but since I memorized the maps very quickly it does not matter much.

[FyreBrand]

Strong Draw

Penetrating Shot was almost always the go to use for Focus for multiple reasons.

1) Lowest power cost of Focus skills
2) Shortest cool down of Focus skills
3) Single target - sometimes you can't touch adds

Pre-Blood Arrow it was almost a no brainer. At least now there's a choice....sometimes.

• If Blood Arrow was off cool down (10sec vs. 3sec) and you could use it (no risk from Morale cost) you used it over PS every time. No Power cost and harder hits made it a much better choice for your Focus. There's disclaimers though, and the CD is a lot longer (esp. true with 6 Helegrod set) so PS gets used more.
• If you didn't have more than one target to hit RoA is a waste of power; if you can't clip adds you can[t use RoA at all so PS gets used more. Also 10sec vs. 3sec (1.5sec) CD.
• If the mob is above 50% life you can't use MS, and below 50% it's still a high opportunity cost for Focus so PS gets used way more.

PS always got used more for several reasons. Trashing the trait that made it better just because it got used more, therefore improving it was always a good idea, is poor logic. Provide better ways to use Focus skills besides PS and [current] Strong Draw becomes much less attractive by default. It might be a less vital skill in my rotation if there were more times I had to make a "PS or X Skill" decision.

Even worse logic is improving PS to be usable on the move (now) AND creating Improved PS with zero CD (soon). I will still slot Strong Draw simply because the skill it improves is such a large part of my rotation...it's just no where near as good of a trait. Continuing to make PS a more and more vital part of our rotation then trashing the related trait because it's always a "must have" is pretty silly.

With RoI I might actually have had more reason to retrait and rethink thanks to Split Shot. With two Focus using AoE skills I would actually get to decide between Strong Draw and Arrow Storm. Am I going to be in an AoE heavy environment and spend a lot of time and Focus on RoA and Split Shot? Great! Now I finally have a real decision point in my build and could have good reason to remove Strong Draw. OOPS, DOESN'T MATTER! Now Arrow Storm has also been changed so that it doesn't reduce Focus costs either.

What was the real reasoning behind changing both Strong Draw and Arrow Storm at the same time ZC? The previously used "It was too good" logic doesn't apply to Arrow Storm. Strange that both traits that reduce Focus consumption should both be removed at the same time, don't you think? Come on, you can be honest with us.

PS: Agreed that you should destroy Deadly Precision as well. It was more important than Strong Draw, always has been. Or did your testing reveal that modifying DP would leave us too Focus starved?

I can't agree. You have the single best skill (PS) and you give it a trait to let you use it more, then it always must be traited. It was always traited unless you were stupid.

Critical Eye is a great trait, but nowhere near in the same category. If you already had a high crit rating there was room for something else. The 1% crit is not a deal breaker, but not traiting SD was.

edit: I'll add that Deadly Precision also hasn't been a must have, not even in the same way Strong Draw has been. Again it's not in the same category. Deadly Precision is similar to Unrelenting. It's a great trait that I mostly, if not always slot, but it's not a requirement or deal breaker if it's not.

A must have always slot trait compared to Strong Draw would be Sword and Staff for the Lore-Master. You just don't unslot that ever. It's a deal breaker and Strong Draw was even more so. I've unslotted S&S before to test out a couple different builds and the lore-master isn't broken without it, but I could feel it. It's a totally different way of playing the class, but it didn't make it less effective, just weird. Unslotting Strong Draw is worse because it breaks skill rotation. :end edit

I'm not a beta tester and have no idea how things work now (focus generation rate, etc) so I'm not going to try and theory-craft or flop and twitch an opinion out as fact. I will say it all depends on how traitlines work and how focus generation works and how power consumption goes and how all that ties together.

I don't really care if they change the old focus-burn. It's been the only thing to do for 4 years now. Compared to other classes like the champ, lore-master, and minstrel the hunter has been a total yawner. A little shake-up can do it good as far as I'm concerned. Are you really going to miss 1, 2, 4, 3, 5, 4, 1, 4, 2, 4, 3, 4?

[Daeloth07]

Deadly Precision is a great trait, but nowhere near in the same category. If you already had a high crit rating there was room for something else. The 1% crit is not a deal breaker, but not traiting SD was.

Sounds to me like you are confusing Critical Eye with Deadly Precision.

[Brave.Sir.Robin]

Thanks for the replies ZC. I do have a few followup questions;

I think many players have asked this before but let me ask it again. Many players feel that when traiting for dps the Runekeeper and Champion have more utility for the group appart from dps than the hunter making them more worthwhile to bring to groups. The champions are able to grab agro on more mobs (without dying) and can dump agro on tanks and the runekeepers can still heal pretty decent when needed and bring fellowship wide protections with them. How do you feel the utility between the classes compare when traited for dps and should the hunter be buffed because of this in dps (I personally do not see this happening) or be given some utility skills to make the hunter more wanted in a fellowship/raid environment. How about Finding the Path also giving an in-combat run speed buff or changing one hunter skill so that the next skill the fellowship uses is given a shorter cooldown (-10% to -20%).

I would also like to hear you opinion on the role of the red traitline. How is this line supposed to deal with the very increased focus costs (and added skills which require focus aswell). What is the role of the red line compared to the blue one.

[Aleatar]

Thanks for the replies ZC. I do have a few followup questions;

I think many players have asked this before but let me ask it again. Many players feel that when traiting for dps the Runekeeper and Champion have more utility for the group appart from dps than the hunter making them more worthwhile to bring to groups. The champions are able to grab agro on more mobs (without dying) and can dump agro on tanks and the runekeepers can still heal pretty decent when needed and bring fellowship wide protections with them. How do you feel the utility between the classes compare when traited for dps and should the hunter be buffed because of this in dps (I personally do not see this happening) or be given some utility skills to make the hunter more wanted in a fellowship/raid environment. How about Finding the Path also giving an in-combat run speed buff or changing one hunter skill so that the next skill the fellowship uses is given a shorter cooldown (-10% to -20%).

I would also like to hear you opinion on the role of the red traitline. How is this line supposed to deal with the very increased focus costs (and added skills which require focus aswell). What is the role of the red line compared to the blue one.

I agree with this, there is no way that hunters are going to be put in a place far above champs and rks in terms of dps, if that happens what's the point in taking champs and rks when most of the boss fights are dps races...
But the support role for hunter is something that it could be worked, I think this is the direction that the yellow trait line is taking with the debuff to parry/evade block with 4 traits, with the spring loaded trap trait, sure it is still not good enough but I think in the future we may see more of this.
The CC touches for hunter are good, traps, a fear for natures (should apply to all mobs really) a short daze with distracting, but when you have to equip two legendaries to be semi-competent does not make much sense, so I think the cc should be dropped in the future in favour of a debuffer/buffer role.
Camp traited working in combat giving icpr and icmr, or power pulses, same as rune keeper stone?
A bit off topic but I feel that some post are being a bit over the top and rude, so chill people is just a game

[Kongas]

We're unhappy because there has been absolutely no consultation or communication until this belated and tone-deaf post which really has done little to assuage any worries and much to set alarm bells ringing.

We are paying customers and we have invested considerable time and money in playing our favorite class. My hunter is my only one. A sensitive company and a sensitive developer has to realise they cannot just waltz in and impose significant changes in at atmosphere of complete secrecy without causing alarm.

Nothing that I've read in this thread from the developer suggests that the latest reform is going to be anything else but another downgrade of the prime hunter function relative to other classes primary and secondary dps.

Little in this thread suggests to me that the developer has much sympathy with the class we signed up to play. The original proposals to significantly change the class were vehemently rejected so he just went away and came up with some other equally radical and equally controversial changes, but decided not to let on until it is too late to do anything but tinker in the margins.

As the saying goes:

'Evil-doers fear the light.'

That the changes have been far from universally well-received in beta only adds to the suspicion that this is not a reform we will welcome.

If it turns out that by working harder we can still be in the top 3 dps this will still be a Fail. By his own admission he doesn't really know what the relative class balance will be in practice yet he still nerfs a valued trait on the comical grounds that it was useful to us.

Unless and until we are given a significant secondary role on a par with for instance, the incredible dps burglars manage or the healing role of RK's, then Hunters should be the absolute clear single target dps top dogs. That is the very essence of the class. does it sound like we're going to be?

Does any of the CC stuff sound to you like it is going to be of any real use let alone be on a par with other classes secondary roles and the ease with which they switch between them?

No doubt we will all adjust but the point remains - this whole process has been sadly mismanaged and the lack of communication and discussion a pretty poor show. If it turns out okay it is going to be by coincidence, not through design.

A question for the beta testers. When you take your current toon into beta as is and then on to CD can you still easily solo the 55k Guardian Gate Trolls? Or perform any of the other significant solo Elite feats you can at the moment?