Interview with the Turbine Staff

[heatherjewel]

They are not deluded. The are using this sites for ratings. The same site also does TV programs and is one of the most respected sites of it kind

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insight...deo_games.html

Yeah because a system based on boxes in less than one tenth of 1% of the homes is so accurate. Just like people believing that there are more people playing Lotro than WoW, Rift, or Eve just off the top of my head. That doesnt include all the Asian games out there that blow the numbers for NA games out of the water.

As far as out selling the others I am sure that is typical MMO marketing speak. But that should also be expected. With RoI you get EVERYTHING, So for 30 bux you get the game in its entirety. So I would hope it would sell a lot. There are also more players playing now. Didnt they say their subs tripled, or was that just their revenue? So to put the spin the other way if they havent sold 3 times as many copies of RoI than they did the others does that mean it is a failure?

I said it before, if they want to make money on just 'box' sales do what Arena Net used to do and just make expansions and run a modest store and just sell content to add to the game. A more modern example would be the Dragon Age series, although it isnt an MMO nor does it have a store, but how they dole out content. A big box every so often and small updates you pay a small amount for. Then when new major content comes out bundle all the updates into a "chapter' bundle and sell that.

Either way it is funny how the same fanbois who were conspicuously absent in the 60 (probably will reach 100 pages) thread are in here tooting the turbine hyperbole horn. When they couldnt be found with a search warrant in a thread with MULTIPLE VALID complaints/issues that are indefensible. So as usual the "we believe what they say not what we see" types are the first to applaud Turbine. Yet dont have too much to say when presented with actual verifiable issues.

[asearchforreason]

Very nice interview. Thanks!

[Fin.]

Yeah because a system based on boxes in less than one tenth of 1% of the homes is so accurate. Just like people believing that there are more people playing Lotro than WoW, Rift, or Eve just off the top of my head. That doesnt include all the Asian games out there that blow the numbers for NA games out of the water.

That's how polls and market research works.

And how does number of players playing asian games be relevant to this case? We(western players) could play "asian games", but we don't so much and there are reasons for that.

Also I am from Europe so I'm not sure these numbers include EU or is it only for US, because the results are bit surprising.

This is not to defend Turbine, just to defend this Nielsen company.

[Fipiara]

ROFL - best tidbit from that interview - "best selling LOTRO expansion...ever." With the game gone F2P, and the RoI expansion only available in preorder, for cash, and not in the game store...it's outsold Moria...SoM...

So much for all the things that are going to kill the game.

While that is an impressive stat and brings hope that things are still gaining momentive, it depnds on how they categorize the MoM & SoM codemaster sales ("our best selling expansion to date"). I would expect RoI to outsell MoM & SoM if you are comparing apples to oranges (i.e. Turbine only sales of MoM or SoM to Turbine sales of RoI).

I personally look forward to RoI and enjoyed the interview, but statements like this can definitely mean a number of things.

Edit: Also, I do admit it could very well exceed Turbine & Codemasters previous sales combined. For new players, the legendary offer is by far the best deal who have no quest packs and intend to be premium players.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

ROFL - best tidbit from that interview - "best selling LOTRO expansion...ever." With the game gone F2P, and the RoI expansion only available in preorder, for cash, and not in the game store...it's outsold Moria...SoM...

So much for all the things that are going to kill the game.

Discontent is not going to kill any game obviously. It could if every single unhappy customer would show their discontent by cancelling their subscription and not pre-ordering expansions. Instead we have unhappy customers who have been feeding the company with money with subscriptions for years while complaining at the same time. Pre-ordering expansions from a company they have been calling untrustworthy and incompetent.

Listened to bits of the interview. They say that Isengard is their best selling expansion yet. They sound very proud about it. It may also be their most buyer's remorse inducing expansion yet. But why should they care as long as the miserable customers keep giving them money? Misery doesn't make money any less valuable.

...

Well, it's either that or the number of dissatisfied customers are greatly outnumbered by the satisfied ones. I don't know.

[Hudson7]

Yeah because a system based on boxes in less than one tenth of 1% of the homes is so accurate. Just like people believing that there are more people playing Lotro than WoW, Rift, or Eve just off the top of my head. That doesnt include all the Asian games out there that blow the numbers for NA games out of the water.

Either way it is funny how the same fanbois who were conspicuously absent in the 60 (probably will reach 100 pages) thread are in here tooting the turbine hyperbole horn. When they couldnt be found with a search warrant in a thread with MULTIPLE VALID complaints/issues that are indefensible. So as usual the "we believe what they say not what we see" types are the first to applaud Turbine. Yet dont have too much to say when presented with actual verifiable issues.

I don't like the concept behind Neilsen any better, but when there's BIG dollars tied to that system that rely on its accuracy, there is some validity to the numbers. Can you poke holes in them, sure, but qualitatively it should provide a good ballpark.

As for the thread you reference, yes I have stayed out of that thread. Mainly because I don't see the point in me jumping into it. I have my beliefs and others have their own, and I'm pretty sure neither one of us are going to change However, if you read or listen to any of the things I've put out (I've been far from silent or hidden) you'll know that I do have certain expectations and desires for where this game goes. I'm not shy about admitting where Turbine goes wrong (in my opinion) or where they're having issues. As an example, the Episode before this one (Episode 21) I state that for me, this gap between Isengard and Episode 5 will be very telling for the direction of LOTRO and is a period that I will be watching very closely.

On the flip side, I do realize they're a company trying to make money as well as put out a product that is appealing to as many as possible. Those two things at time require doing things that I personally may not like, and it is a continual evaluation process on the value of the game for the money I pay (and am paying). I also do cut them some slack, based on my background, as I understand what they're trying to do isn't easy and sometimes things just don't work the way you plan.

For me, Turbine is still ahead of the game but that margin is shrinking.

I'm not claiming you were singling me out, just responding to your comments explaining where I'm coming from. So when I say "you" I'm not calling you (heatherjewel) out, but using the term in the general sense.

[Arbalister]

They sound very proud about it. It may also be their most buyer's remorse inducing expansion yet.

Not hardly. It's a shame that the older posts have been pruned, because you could go back and look at the same forum angst (from a lot of the same people) before Moria...before SoM....*after* Moria and SoM...etc.

And, really, what their statement proves more then anything else is that we, here, in this forum are far, far from even being a "major minority" of players.

[Golledhel]

ROFL - best tidbit from that interview - "best selling LOTRO expansion...ever." With the game gone F2P, and the RoI expansion only available in preorder, for cash, and not in the game store...it's outsold Moria...SoM...

So much for all the things that are going to kill the game.

They have a bigger player base. Of course they're going to have more sales.

[DeeArr]

Well done, Doc. Thank you for posting this.

I was bummed to hear about there being no "Part II" to the LI revamp. I was hoping it would add some sort of mechanism to allow weapons to increase in level [grow with us].

[Ruintheliel]

Cheers for this interview. Well done on getting so many Devs to talk!

Was slightly difficult to hear all of it, tho, but nothing listening twice can't help with.
Some interesting info on Update 5 as well. Sounds like the barter system will be very similar to that of OD. Let's hope that the amount needed of the new "Medallions of the Northmen" don't go south like their predecessors...

[Arbalister]

They have a bigger player base. Of course they're going to have more sales.

Yes, apparently they do. Which puts to lie all the posts that dispute the statements that the playerbase is growing.

Having a larger playerbase for this expansion doesn't diminish the fact that they had more sales, expecially in light of 2 things - we're comparing months of preorder sales of RoI to 3 years of MoM sales, and that there are tons of people out there that will get RoI from the store, with TP that they've banked.

The second point is telling - they've had all these sales, in cash, at a time when people *could* be waiting to get the XP for "free" from the in game store. They have a larger playerbase, yes, but a large percentage of those new players are F2P players, and a given percentage of those won't buy it for cash, they'll use TP...so "more sales then any other expansion" when there is a whole segment of players that haven't even had the opportunity to buy, yet, is, still, impressive.

[Hudson7]

Was slightly difficult to hear all of it, tho, but nothing listening twice can't help with.

I'm still learning how to do all this kind of stuff, and don't have the resources to get all the cool toys that could help boost the audio quality. Speakerphones (what they were using on their end) also have their own set of issues and challenges. Slowly but surely I am getting better, but it is very much a work in progress.

[heatherjewel]

That's how polls and market research works.

And how does number of players playing asian games be relevant to this case? We(western players) could play "asian games", but we don't so much and there are reasons for that.

Also I am from Europe so I'm not sure these numbers include EU or is it only for US, because the results are bit surprising.

This is not to defend Turbine, just to defend this Nielsen company.

Well Turbine is using the data for marketing. I am surprised it isnt splashed all over the log in screen or all through the forums.

Numbers matter, that is what they were claiming. If Neilson doesnt rank every game then that diminishes the 'value' of that ranking even more.

So it cuts both ways. It is akin to Alexa for tracking website traffic or whats its (cant remember it now but that program that people use to track hours played) for tracking log in for MMOs and trying to determine what MMOs get played more.

Sure Lotro has a lot of players now, because it is free to log in. Get out of the obvious areas like Bree and the shire and the lonelands and into the mid level stuff and the population drop off is from a thousand to zero. Not until 21st hall do you start seeing people, and a lot of them are lifetime guys and now the special $99/yr guys. But it is still nearly impossible to get groups for stuf unless it is on a weekend, and usually then it is a guild/kin group short a player or two looking to fill up.

I dont want to get into the whole population argument, I just thought it was comical that was basically the first thing they crowed about.

What is also telling is once they got off the hyperbole track and started trying to answer valid questions the specificity level of answers or even knowing the actual answer to the question got very thin. There were some good questions asked and it seemed like half of them the guy didnt understand what the question was or gave an answer that dodged or went into another area.

So it wasnt all about what WAS said, but also about what WASN'T said that made that interview really telling.

Seriously I have spent my far share on this game, so me bashing it is simply because they have to do better. Just like the commentary at the end. They claim to know they have made mistakes. Well they have been for 3+ years (I give them an A for the first year) So the time is now to do something about it not just talk about it.

If they start compromising for the quick buck and more mediocre content (that is lauded by critics and website stooges) then it wont really be better now will it. They NEED some harsh criricism on the reality, because they have too many people blowing smoke up their>>>> that they might actually think thyre delivering a high quality product.

I am not sure if the 'success' of F2P made them think they had it all figured out, but telling them they are the number 2 MMO isnt going to help their "we need to get better" thought process. Especially if it isnt even close to being true. They need to be reminded that Lord of the Rings is the single greatest work of literature to base an MMO on. And that having the Ip for that should be a license to print money. it shouldnt be just some run of the mill game that failed to capture the MMO player base that is BEGGING for something awesome to do. And thus have to go to a free to play model that has also really failed in its first year.

had the game been done "right" it would have been the biggest game going, and there wouldnt be any need for debate, but the facts that it has gone free to play and has struggled to keep players is all one needs to know. And no excuses that Tolkien fans arent MMO fans. MMO players are fantasy geek, there are tens of millions of them worldwide, so one can assume that a game based on the most recognized fantasy story ever would at least be familiar with it.

Like the guy said at the end if they get it together, dont let the accolades go to their heads and just do their jobs it might be OK going forward. This might not exactly be the turning point since it is a 'throw away' expansion. But if they dont nail Rohan and deliver some truly epic stuff then the game will be a bunch of lifetimers logging in once in awhile to fool around to try and get somethingout of the game, a bunch of free to play people figuring they can earn enough TP to play for free forever until they tire of the girnd, and a few die hard fans who will accept mediocrity and play the game regardless, and not think about how great it could have been but just bury their heads and take what they can get.

The people that defend turbine like its their mother should realize WE paid for this game as well, and that we expect a lot from it, and we have just as much say as they do. Constantly patting turbine on the back clearly hasnt worked, maybe some criticism should be in order. Most people with pride will judge themselves, maybe Turbine isnt that honest with themselves. That interview didnt really seem like it, at least with a couple of them.

[Golledhel]

They have a larger playerbase, yes, but a large percentage of those new players are F2P players, and a given percentage of those won't buy it for cash, they'll use TP...so "more sales then any other expansion" when there is a whole segment of players that haven't even had the opportunity to buy, yet, is, still, impressive.

And that given percentage could be very small. How did they get those TPs? By paying cash. And if they're going to pay cash to get TPs to buy the expansion from the store, then they'll more than likely just buy the expansion directly with cash.

We're both making big assumptions here. We don't even know how they define "best-selling expansion".

[Ruintheliel]

I'm still learning how to do all this kind of stuff, and don't have the resources to get all the cool toys that could help boost the audio quality. Speakerphones (what they were using on their end) also have their own set of issues and challenges. Slowly but surely I am getting better, but it is very much a work in progress.

It's not a huge problem. If you are keen on info, like me, poor quality is ignored when the info is given hehe. I'd rather have the info in poor quality sound than no info at all, to put it that way.

[Arachnella]

Could someone kindly make a list of the main statements from this interview, in bullet points? I'm sure that this would be of great help for many players who are not native English speakers, or have other troubles with listening this interview, without being as time and effort consuming as making a full transcript.

[Nostro44]

They are not deluded. The are using this sites for ratings. The same site also does TV programs and is one of the most respected sites of it kind

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insight...deo_games.html

As far as I can tell Nielsen profiles USA users only. You can do this for TV programmes but for online worldwide games the figures are pretty meaningless. Turbine may have some idea how many non-USA players they've got but for sure they won't let on. So they may be 4th for USA online games but worldwide it's impossible to tell; as another poster noted, there's many Asian games which have millions of players and Asia has a much bigger population than USA.

[Arbalister]

And that given percentage could be very small. How did they get those TPs? By paying cash. And if they're going to pay cash to get TPs to buy the expansion from the store, then they'll more than likely just buy the expansion directly with cash.

Doesn't matter how they got them - there is some chunk of current players that will buy when the items are in the TP store. It reduces the "yeah but they have more players" qualifier.

We're both making big assumptions here. We don't even know how they define "best-selling expansion".

By "sales of expansions" I'd imagine. :-)

[LilFeet]

Thanks Hudson! Very good interview, I found it informative! +rep

[Linwen]

And the most obvious one is that they started with X number of servers and despite all the so called influxes of people have never had to open any new ones.

Crickhollow
Dwarrowdelf
Imladris
Riddermark

[hallasan]

The people that defend turbine like its their mother should realize WE paid for this game as well, and that we expect a lot from it, and we have just as much say as they do. Constantly patting turbine on the back clearly hasnt worked, maybe some criticism should be in order. Most people with pride will judge themselves, maybe Turbine isnt that honest with themselves. That interview didnt really seem like it, at least with a couple of them.

Yes, many people fall into the 'we' and many of those 'we' are also able to manage expectations and not fall into fallacious arguments vilifying Turbine to prove some confirmation bias.

There are valid criticisms that can inform and improve the game and uninformed criticism wrapped in emotional appeals and/or uninformed critiques ignoring business reality.

+rep for the interviewer

[hucklebarry]

This is my summary (paraphrase) of the comments. I can't retype the whole thing, even if desired hopefully this captures the actual intent of the dev statements for those asking:

Lotro is the Number 2 MMO Worldwide.

Lotro is the Number 4 PC Game worldwide (all genres).

Edit: (already discussed in thread) RoI expansion pre-sales has already outsold any other LOTRO expansion.

Lifetime accounts are NOT a drain to Turbine and are in fact valued as customers.

Will try to maintain balance (1 customer will not like something, another will.... they are seeking balance to keep lots happy).

Communication will always be a best effort. Uncontrollable things occur that cause slips or changes. Its part of the industry.

LI's will reset points in RoI.

Skirmish soldiers do not have a global reset, but some skills/traits will.

Finesse is not really level gated. It appears at level 66 and possibly before. Mobs won't be balanced for heavy finesse until level 66+

Landscape mobs will not really account much for finesse.

Draigloch raid will help to split groups across the space. Separate fellowship coordination will be very helpful. Lots of loot.

The big difference in loot between 24 man and 12 is the number of item drops. Higher chance of better rare items in the 12 man.

This is the most "potent" loot drop ever done. (draigloch)

OD raid set should have taken top tier raiders 4-6 weeks to obtain at launch.

New end game is mostly obtained via Superior 4th marks that can be obtained over the long term or very quickly via the new raid.

Design challenges are to build variety, challenge, and fun in new instances.

In scaled spaces, the boss chests (and some other chests) will have EXTRA loot that will scale to space level starting at 45+.

Instances still only scale to current max level.

Scaled EXTRA drops from instance chests will not be found in skirmishes.

Angmar and Lothlorien battle instances are a big candidate to transfer to skirmishes, but is on a backlog. Converting Rift is higher in priority.

Converting the battle instances is a challenge since their current design is around group mechanics and splitting up the groups.

Class balance was based on developer enthusiasm to improve the classes, and not so much a response to a broken mechanic.

Some changes were based on beta feedback such as threat for tanks being improved.

Heals should be fine where they are in RoI. There isn't developer concern that they did not scale heals properly, but as always if problems prove to be consistent, they can be addressed.

Armour bonuses are balanced on variety, class roles, ability, stats, and point of view. All bonuses won't be coveted by all classes/players.

No plans on adding shards to the loot table.

Current state of LI's is satisfactory. Possibly minor tweaks in the future, but items are where they should be now.

Crafting is an ongoing work. There is no complete overhaul planned, but tweaks and options will continue to help the system.

rep items are being actively looked at (intentionally vague answer about all the various currencies for rep items)

Right now most focus is going towards update 5 and further epic book. No immediate plans for new crafting instances.

The instances in update 5 have additional story with them.

Other content will be included in update 5 apart from the instances. Only the instances will be alacarte.

The next book of the epic line will come out later this year.

New armor set with new instances. (both a more casual and a more hardcore set)

"if you are a hardcore player, then you will get the hardcore stuff more quickly. If you are a casual player then you can get the hardcore stuff slower".

ROI is a mix of a "jackpot" and a "currency system" for gear. Skirmish marks for some pieces, gear drops for others.

More notes on update 5 are coming. Update 5 is not the instances.

[Zombie_Columbus]

I hate the sound of my voice.

[Golledhel]

^^ Sounds better than Graalx2's. ^^

Doesn't matter how they got them - there is some chunk of current players that will buy when the items are in the TP store. It reduces the "yeah but they have more players" qualifier.



By "sales of expansions" I'd imagine. :-)

Top: And it might not reduce it enough to negate it.

Bottom: Sales from where? Directly from Turbine? Is it counting from other sites such as Amazon? I would imagine they're basing it on the number of sales, and no the percent of their player base that has bought it?

[Stadic]

Yeah because a system based on boxes in less than one tenth of 1% of the homes is so accurate.

Unless you plan on going door to door for 300 million people, in the US alone, then polling is the only way to gather any data. Polls can be skewed, and have been, but Nielson is one of the most tried and true that has ever existed. As others have mentioned, people base billions of dollars in decisions off of their data every day.

As to the fan-bois rant, I'd just note that your posts seem to come off a little skewed as well as many of theirs do, just in an opposite direction.

Please note, the above comments concerning the validity of polls in general is not an endorsement of Turbine, it's products, nor an expression of any personal belief as to the value of the expansion pack.