Rune-keeper planned changes with Isengard

[revoked]

Even if enamels were cheap as dirt, I don't think it should be required for any class to use consumables as a regular part of their game play. Plus at a purely practical level, the best enamels have a 2 minute cooldown, whereas our neutral skills are often required to be used every 30 seconds.

[6055]

Initial read on the changes to the runekeeper are clearly nerfs. I have been reading from the "pro-changes" camp that properly geared and traited runekeeper will be even more potent post ROI and I think i see their point in this argument. But what about the lower levels when we have limited traits and gear? I hope i am wrong, but the combination of low armour, nerfed dps and nerfed healing, with no way of getting round it at low levels, will make a rune-keeper frustrating to level up. We can kite more you say? Running around in a tiny room or into waiting mobs isnt going to do much good. My advice? If you want to play a rune-keeper, roll one now and cap your level before ROI.

[Dreckzanrito]

Seems like a Nerf to me, no matter how you want to "paint" it, at least to healings, anyways is true that fire is getting buffed...oh well we are getting struck with the all-mighty nerf hammer.

[Alad.]

I thought I should mention a problem regarding the trait Thunderous Words:

It gives Scribe's Spark (which has about 5sec cycle time) a 15% chance to produce the effect (which is changing from -1950 Penetrate Target Resistance at level 65, for 20 sec, to an increase in Finesse, hopefully also 1950 at 65 and also 20 sec). The 15% chance is too low for this slow skill, since it means every 7 uses of the skill, on average, i.e. every 35 sec at best assuming you try to use Scribe's Spark as soon as it's available, which will probably not be the case.

35 sec, at the least, is quite a long time compared to the sister trait Harsh Debate, which gives Ceaseless Argument a 15% chance to buff your tactical damage by 15% for 20 sec, considering that CA has no cooldown, so you get the effect pretty fast (theoretically within 15sec on average).

Could the 15% chance for Thunderous Words not be increased to, say, 30%, for it to become comparable with Harsh Debate? (Especially now that the bonuses those 2 effects give Epic Conclusion have been reduced to 15%...)

[Bradegor]

Hunter diary is out, hopefully we will get ours before RoI arrives

[Hiritier]

Can someone compare RK and Mini after RoI pls? (specially who has both 65 toon)

Untill now I enjoyed my RK with the know that I can dps better than Mini (with both heal/dps trait set). But Mini can heal multi targets better with their instant heal, so their healing task easier.

Now I heard that Mini's damage in RoI will be increased, and they can dps even with heal traits. And our healing ability is going down, specially group heal. Is that make RK become 2'nd choice after Mini when ppl looking for heal? (I like to heal more than dps).

Sorry if someone has already talked about these in this thread. I didnt have time to read it all so pls link me those posts.

[Gingerale]

If you heal less than now, with the same number of heal traits than now, it's a nerf. The fact that you can offset the nerf by only focussing on healing and give up any other trait, doesn't mean it is not a nerf.

Basically, when you used to trait 4/3, you could heal at 95%.
Now, you need to trait 6/1 or even 7/0 to do the same heals.

That means you're nerfed, no matter how you look at it.

I honestly like how this is set up, because it forces you to choose a role before a fight, and makes the class traits more meaningful. So it is indeed true that you might do less healing in the future than you do now if you are traited 4/3. At the same time though, if you are traited 4/3 you are planning on doing a little healing and dpsing, and you probably shouldn't be allowed to be a tier 1 healer or dps if you are setting out to be middle of the road in both.

[Bradegor]

I honestly like how this is set up, because it forces you to choose a role before a fight, and makes the class traits more meaningful. So it is indeed true that you might do less healing in the future than you do now if you are traited 4/3. At the same time though, if you are traited 4/3 you are planning on doing a little healing and dpsing, and you probably shouldn't be allowed to be a tier 1 healer or dps if you are setting out to be middle of the road in both.

I agree. Hence, if im going to be hurt by having to choose a role, and not being to effectively switching my role in the middle of the fight ... at least give us utility at healing and keep us as main DPS/healers compared with other classes. One of the few good things a RK had before RoI was such ability to give some good healing/DPS if needed to switch. Now, this will be hampered, hopefully at the better overall efficiency on each role.

[blipp]

While I'm happy fire will actually be usable it will still have no place in the moor's. Unless you're fighting low ranked nublets you'll be dead before you finish casting...
Even with the 0 cast time you still have to stand still to cast it. In the moor's standing still with lower than average HP and light armor = a quick death.

Having options is the entire point of trait lines and specialization. For mobility and spike damage there is Lightning, Fire is about sustainability and not supposed to be a clone of the Lightning line with some different gfx slapped on.

[Loreraider3]

to be honest...i dont see as much nerfs as said..and these were planned changes before the beta..so well see how it goes

[Bradegor]

to be honest...i dont see as much nerfs as said..and these were planned changes before the beta..so well see how it goes

Indeed. But, the problem already came from before. Healing RKs were already a worse option than minstrels for a spot in a raid. The class (on the healing paart) needed a buff and looks like it´s not coming. On the DPS part, looks like things will be fine, though. So, instead of what this game needs - more healers - we got more DPSers... right.

[Alad.]

I have updated my intial post(s) with the data from the new Developer's Diary. To make the new changes easier to find, I have put them in lime green.

I have also revised some of the comments, mostly where those new changes can be found.

[Hagia]

WAAAAAAAAAAAA anyone who does not think RK's needs a nerf is clearly a very poor player. There has never in all my time in lotro ever been a class that needed a nerf as bad as an RK. NO class should be hitting for what current RK's hit for. Hit slow, CA,CA,EC dead creep. If there is truely a nerf I can't wait to see what the current RK ezmoders turn too. Also, if it is to bad i'll call you a wambulance..........OMG I cannot EC for 7k anymore OMG OMG...

[Warth]

WAAAAAAAAAAAA anyone who does not think RK's needs a nerf is clearly a very poor player. There has never in all my time in lotro ever been a class that needed a nerf as bad as an RK. NO class should be hitting for what current RK's hit for. Hit slow, CA,CA,EC dead creep. If there is truely a nerf I can't wait to see what the current RK ezmoders turn too. Also, if it is to bad i'll call you a wambulance..........OMG I cannot EC for 7k anymore OMG OMG...

You obviously have no idea what it takes for RKs to hit EC...it takes 9 attacks not 4, and the vast majority of the hits are <2k, even with buffs. 7k is when the stars align and everything is magical.

[Ingaras]

Now I heard that Mini's damage in RoI will be increased, and they can dps even with heal traits. And our healing ability is going down, specially group heal. Is that make RK become 2'nd choice after Mini when ppl looking for heal? (I like to heal more than dps).

I think it's best summarized as following: Previously if you had a RK and a Minstrel, no-one in their right mind would ask the RK to heal and the Minstrel to DPS. It's possible, even fun, but Minstrel DPS took about 3 mobs to be completely out of power... so far from efficient.

Right now, Minstrels can actually do some decent sustained DPS (with the right traits, mind you), but it's still not a DPS class like the RK. The secondary role of the Minstrel as buffer has been made even more clear, and while we do have some sustained-DPS options now, most of it is still power-hungry solo/pvmp oriented burst-DPS.

How that works out is anyone's guess. Mine is that Minstrel will perform slightly better in pure healing, because they have more group-healing, but a Healing-RK will out-DPS a Healing-Minstrel without problems. At the same time a DPS-Minstrel will probably outperform a Healing-RK, but is a good way behind a DPS-RK.

[Hagia]

You obviously have no idea what it takes for RKs to hit EC...it takes 9 attacks not 4, and the vast majority of the hits are <2k, even with buffs. 7k is when the stars align and everything is magical.

Not sure how poorly you play your RK but unless my memory is failing me EC is 6 skills with enamels it is 3. If it is taking you 9 skills to get to EC then that is your own fault.

[revoked]

It's 9. Draw your own conclusions about who knows the class and what it can and can't do.

And who is going to use a consumable that takes resources to make for every little battle....or actually every 2 minutes because of the cooldown on enamels. Not to mention, to get the big hits you need at least two of the buffs up, higher chance for a bit hit if it's 3,...and those are random, so the chance of you using 2 CA then EC for 7k = 0%. The chance of hitting 6 skills, getting all 3 buffs, then using an enamel so you have 9 attunement with the 3 buffs...yeah it happens all the time

[Hagia]

It's 9. Draw your own conclusions about who knows the class and what it can and can't do.

And who is going to use a consumable that takes resources to make for every little battle....or actually every 2 minutes because of the cooldown on enamels. Not to mention, to get the big hits you need at least two of the buffs up, higher chance for a bit hit if it's 3,...and those are random, so the chance of you using 2 CA then EC for 7k = 0%. The chance of hitting 6 skills, getting all 3 buffs, then using an enamel so you have 9 attunement with the 3 buffs...yeah it happens all the time

LOL dude you making RK seem difficult is only making yourself look very /hmmmm what is correct lotro pc thing to say? I can't think of anything you fill in the blank

[ANewMachine]

LOL dude you making RK seem difficult is only making yourself look very /hmmmm what is correct lotro pc thing to say? I can't think of anything you fill in the blank

No, he's right, you don't know what you're talking about. To get a 7K EC crit requires that you trait 3 class traits (Thunderous Words, Harsh Debate, and Closing Remarks), then use CA and Scribe's Spark until both buffs are up (15% chance, so with SS on a 3s CD, you're looking at probably 5 uses of it, or 15s, before that's ready), hope that Charged Runes (from your fourth trait, Tale of the Storm) is up, and then have enough attunement to use EC. Maybe drop a Perfect Imagery first, to buff your crit chance again, and you'll still have a ~40% chance of an underwhelming 2Kish crit.

Long story short, it's actually impossible in the game to do CA CA CA and then hit a 7K EC.

[Hagia]

LOL clearly dev seem to see it differntly NERF inc..../bam

[Mandura]

LOL clearly dev seem to see it differntly NERF inc..../bam

can you pls shut up if you don't know what you're talking about!?!
if you would roll a rk yourself, you'll see that you're wrong!
we rks only get nerfed because of ppl like you who have no clue how rks work and only see the (1 out of 10 at most) 7k ec crits!

[Bradegor]

can you pls shut up if you don't know what you're talking about!?!
if roll a rk yourself, you'll see that you're wrong!
we rks only get nerfed because of ppl like you who have no clue how rks work and only see the (1 out of 10 at most) 7k ec crits!

Such kind of crits, even happening from time to time, bring much anger and hate so devs keep tending on nerfing RKs. EC changes are good for future buffs of the RK class, there will be less complains if we don´t get such crits. More steady damage is needed for this class, hopefully Lightning will be still fine for soloing/moors.

I for once am happy that CE has been nerfed. But i can understand that PvMP RKs are a bit worried. I don´t have much experience with PvMP so i will let them explain how´s RKs faring in there.

[Hagia]

I agree Bradegor the anger comes from them being upset that they might actually have to fire off a brain cell to win a fight. The current state of the RK in the moors is just mindless pressing 1 to 2 buttons till EC comes up and the creep dies. Also, waaaaaaaaaa it takes me 9 skills to hit up to 7k does not get any sympathy from me..only laughter. There is no class more versatile then the RK which is great but, the fact is THEY ARE WAY OP for even a beginner laterlone a good player. Bring on some semblance of a class that has to be traited properly and played by someone older then 3 to succeed. The good RKs will have no problem when RoI comes out it is you whinnnning button mashers that are going to struggle....

[Chris91]

Even though you´ve been trolling quite a bit, your last post is not far from what I think

Actually RKs playstyle needs to be changed, we are labelled as advanced class and I´d like to actually play one

Most Creeps say: "RKs are OP, nerf them"

I say NO, I agree if the damage output of an unskilled player is lowered, as long as a skilled player´s damage output stays the same

So no nerf to the class in total, but a more advanced playstyle which result in 20% worse performance for bad players, 10% better performance for good players

[ANewMachine]

RKs will be *more* advanced outside the Moors now, at least. With Fire as a viable raid DPS line focused on huge amounts of ability-stacking, and Healing remaining a game of knowing who's going to get hit twenty seconds before the damage starts, they're quite good "advanced" methods of playing the games. Lightning, though, remains using SS and CA until other skills are available, and using them whenever they're off CD, then ECing only with the buffs up.