Tracking an Old Goat

[saxtus3]

I cannot emphasize more to READ THE QUESTS. If you don't, then you miss what the game is all about and miss any guidance and instruction. That's not going to change.

Or you could start offering voice packs...

[Dyslex]

There has never been a deed you could not go back and complete at any given time.
The fact that this 'quest' IS a deed screams that you are not going to be blocked from completing said deed.
I don't care if the quest says otherwise: the bottom line is this is a deed.
Since it's a deed, you should be able to complete it at any given time.

You obviously don't remember or weren't around for the Forgotten Lore event. The turn-ins were only accepted for a certain period of time, and many people missed out on the highest-tier title because it was a daily and required a certain amount of days of attention in a small amount of time.

There were folks who were angry about that as well, but they were able to get over it soon enough. Some people are going to have enough time/get lucky/pay attention to gain limited-time achievements in the game, just like real life. You go too quickly, you miss opportunities. There is no reason to have any sense of entitlement when the ability was given to you all along to fully complete the deed. However, if a bug is involved, you are right to expect it to be rectified.

[thunderchickn]

You obviously don't remember or weren't around for the Forgotten Lore event. The turn-ins were only accepted for a certain period of time, and many people missed out on the highest-tier title because it was a daily and required a certain amount of days of attention in a small amount of time.

There were folks who were angry about that as well, but they were able to get over it soon enough. Some people are going to have enough time/get lucky/pay attention to gain limited-time achievements in the game, just like real life. You go too quickly, you miss opportunities. There is no reason to have any sense of entitlement when the ability was given to you all along to fully complete the deed. However, if a bug is involved, you are right to expect it to be rectified.

I would think this is slightly different than a one time special event.

I read the quest, it told me other active quests with Andreg would be cancelled. I then completed the couple of quests I had with him. After looking at the deed, I figured I might get the rest of those quests with Saeradan or something. After completing the quests I had with Andreg, I read the red words again telling me not to turn this in until I was done with Andreg. Well, I had no reason not to believe I was done with him after doing the quests he gave me so I turned it in and now I'm locked out of that deed.

Those that have done it will continue to act like the rest of us can't read, but the fact of the matter is the wording was ambiguous. It should at least tell you to explore with Andreg before finishing... or at least the deed itself should say that all of these quests come from Andreg.

[Dyslex]

I would think this is slightly different than a one time special event.

I read the quest, it told me other active quests with Andreg would be cancelled. I then completed the couple of quests I had with him. After looking at the deed, I figured I might get the rest of those quests with Saeradan or something. After completing the quests I had with Andreg, I read the red words again telling me not to turn this in until I was done with Andreg. Well, I had no reason not to believe I was done with him after doing the quests he gave me so I turned it in and now I'm locked out of that deed.

Those that have done it will continue to act like the rest of us can't read, but the fact of the matter is the wording was ambiguous. It should at least tell you to explore with Andreg before finishing... or at least the deed itself should say that all of these quests come from Andreg.

I can see where you're coming from. I was mostly addressing the idea that every deed should be available to everyone all the time. I personally haven't encountered the issue yet, but it sounds like more direction is needed so that you know exactly when all of the steps have been completed (not exactly telling you where they are or who they're with, but maybe a dialog box telling you that you have X number of steps left, then click Continue or Cancel). I don't believe that people should be able to go back and do the quests if doing so conflicts with the narrative, however.

[Yosoff]

I would think this is slightly different than a one time special event.

I read the quest, it told me other active quests with Andreg would be cancelled. I then completed the couple of quests I had with him. After looking at the deed, I figured I might get the rest of those quests with Saeradan or something. After completing the quests I had with Andreg, I read the red words again telling me not to turn this in until I was done with Andreg. Well, I had no reason not to believe I was done with him after doing the quests he gave me so I turned it in and now I'm locked out of that deed.

Those that have done it will continue to act like the rest of us can't read, but the fact of the matter is the wording was ambiguous. It should at least tell you to explore with Andreg before finishing... or at least the deed itself should say that all of these quests come from Andreg.

Exactly right. +rep

There should have been a master quest that updated with 1/7, 2/7, etc. instead of a deed to track the progress (similar to the Theodred book quest chain by the Falcon Clan camp). The use of a deed to track a quest chain is counter-intuitive to everything we've done for questing in the game for the last 4 years.

[Raven-EU]

I just messed this deed up

Yes, I saw the DO NOT ADVANCE THIS QUEST OR YOU WILL FAIL THIS QUEST CHAIN warning message but my immediate interpretation was that I would fail if I talked to Saerdan. Yes, I clicked the "Continue" button because there was no obvious "No, don't mess this up for me" button. Yes, I realise that the best course of action would've been to close the quest window or hit ESC... Now it's forever broken. Silly me.

I think this quest chain is broken in its fail condition. I mean... Yes, I did read the warning message in read but still managed to misinterpret it. I had skimmed through this thread and was fully aware of the problem but still managed to mess it up. I know now how to do it now for all my non-main characters ...

I'm actually quite upset with the game right now, something I've not been during the 2+ years I've been playing.

P.s. anyone replying with any form of "if you're stupid enough to hit the button it's your own fault" should be slapped with a cold fish for being insensitive, inconsiderate and narrow minded gloaters.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

I would think this is slightly different than a one time special event.

I read the quest, it told me other active quests with Andreg would be cancelled. I then completed the couple of quests I had with him. After looking at the deed, I figured I might get the rest of those quests with Saeradan or something. After completing the quests I had with Andreg, I read the red words again telling me not to turn this in until I was done with Andreg. Well, I had no reason not to believe I was done with him after doing the quests he gave me so I turned it in and now I'm locked out of that deed.

Those that have done it will continue to act like the rest of us can't read, but the fact of the matter is the wording was ambiguous. It should at least tell you to explore with Andreg before finishing... or at least the deed itself should say that all of these quests come from Andreg.

Exactly. That's what I thought as well. Good summary and points.

And with the way we all have inventory issues with the sheer amount of loot and stuff we get.. I'm sure everyone is itching to get rid of the whistle by completing the quest line.

[LadyDena]

I agree with the OP and most of the people on this thread.

This same fail mechanism was used for the summonable guy in Annuminas. Contrary to the blue name's dismissive claim, I READ EVERY WORD ON EVERY QUEST. But the problem is identical to this one :

Once the summoned guy's main objective is completed, you get that golden halo above his name so you can't see any other quests becoming available.. The ONLY way to know there is a side quest available is to repeatedly talk to him every few meters while you explore the entire area. If you aren't in the exact right spot where the side quests are, you won't get the chance to accept them.

So the problem is the DESIGN. I'll list them here :

1. Quests are not all offered upfront. This is such a simple solution and would avoid all this drama.
2. Quests are location sensitive. If you missed the quest area by 1 meter, you will never know there is an optional quest there.
3. There is NO WAY for the players to know how many quests in total the npc offers. And no the deed log does not help because often times in other places the same npc will show up later offering additional quests. And I bet this is why a lot of people get confused thinking this guy might be standing at the next camp down the quest chain, not as a summonable, but as a regular npc offering more quests.
4. Once the main objective of the NPC is completed, that gold halo on his head prevents the players from seeing the presence of any other new quests if they wander through a valid area.
5. Even if a player (like me) reads every word of the description, people can still incorrectly interpret them. Turbine can allow these NPCs be summoned again so they can be completed. Turbine has a choice. Players do not.

6. Last but not least, PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. Turbine needs to decide whether it is in their best business interest to make their product forgiving, or take an unrealistic and petty stance against mistakes. If Turbine, in all their wisdom admitted that Radiance was a blunder, why expect their player base to be somehow wiser or less prone to errors? The only reasonable recourse is to go back and fix these NPCs in Dunland and Annuminas.

[TheCorbinator]

You obviously don't remember or weren't around for the Forgotten Lore event. The turn-ins were only accepted for a certain period of time, and many people missed out on the highest-tier title because it was a daily and required a certain amount of days of attention in a small amount of time.

There were folks who were angry about that as well, but they were able to get over it soon enough. Some people are going to have enough time/get lucky/pay attention to gain limited-time achievements in the game, just like real life. You go too quickly, you miss opportunities. There is no reason to have any sense of entitlement when the ability was given to you all along to fully complete the deed. However, if a bug is involved, you are right to expect it to be rectified.

On the contrary, I have the highest title for that event.

My point is that event did NOT HAVE A VIRTUE TIED TO IT!

Furthermore, that event is GONE from your log the moment you complete it, therefore it doesn't haunt you.
And, on the off chance that it isn't, it's just a title.

This deed has a virtue tethered to it.
This deed is being used as a quest tracker for a questionable NPC at best.

Again: This concept is stupid.
I don't care if YOU finished the deed or if anyone else finished the deed. Good friggin job. Well done. Get off this forum thread.

This thread is to show that there are displeased people with the concept being presented; and that there is a serious problem with the execution of this quest/deed combo. We have provided an easy fix, and we want to see that fix.

I don't have the luxury of an alt, and I don't want the luxury of an alt.
This isn't an 'event' deed. It's a normal virtue deed, therefore it MUST BE ALLOWED TO BE COMPLETED AT ALL TIMES!

[NukeTheLag]

At a minimum, when you first get the quest to go to the Rohirrim Camp/first summon Andreg, he should say something like "During our journey, I will be asking you to help me with several tasks which I will discuss along the way. . . " If that were the case, then the quips about "read the quest" would at least have some foundation to them. There is nothing inherent in the first quest text that he is going to be giving you a second quest. There is nothing inherent in the second that he will be giving you a third. And there is certainly nothing that the quests will be given piecemeal on the way as opposed to at a fixed point or even that they will all be given by Andreg. Perhaps if all the people saying "read the quest" would actually read the quest, these shortcomings would become more clear.

Also until you complete one of the quests, the deed does not appear. So if it takes awhile to kill the hounds for example, you could be well past the point you need to be at to get the crabain or traps quest. So you won't have that quest and it won't be clear what you need to do to get the quest. Go talk to someone else in the camp? Someone else somewhere else in the Gravenwood? The answer is to head back to Andreg's camp's and retrace your steps, but I defy anyone to quote anything from the quest dialogue which hints at this. The only reason people are completing this quest is becasue a) they ran into this problem in beta; b) they've been given a head's up to be extra careful; or c) blind luck.

It is perfectly understandable how someone who came across the quest/deed for the first time and was unaware of these problems would miss something. If it were some oddball quest that wouldn't be a problem. When it is tied to a virtue, that is inexcusable.

[Thoronthor]

Now missing one quest for the deed because I did not see there was a deed till after I completed the final quest, I think the new deed message never even appeared or was drowned out by other messages.

Even so I ran around for a good while after completing the other quests but the major problem was that once I completed the main quest there was a permanent quest-ring on the NPC and you couldnt see if a new quest was accessible unless you clicked on the npc and checked...very cumbersome.

The idea of not being able to complete this deed really kills me, please add a way of being able to complete it after all or remove the deed for all I care, now it is just a constant reminder of a few moments of not paying attention to every detail.

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Yup. I'm missing just one as well. The dog one I think.

[Rowendar]

It's not good customer service to say "maybe next time you will read the quest". Just saying...

Berephon is not in customer service. I appreciate the fact that some developers actually tell you like it is.

Everything in the world does not have to be idiot-proof. People need to read things before diving into the action. There's a reason for all the text in those quests.

[Thoronthor]

most of my kinnies report that the deed does not give a warning when it opens up, those that did complete it report they didnt know there was a deed until after they finished it and got the deed completed messages.

If you are going to make a deed that you only have chance of completing once, at least make sure people know it exists, I think this is bugged.

[Scrivener]

As a developer seems to be reading this thread, let me give my perspective on this as someone who saw trouble coming.

I bugged this in beta and said it was a really bad idea -- the reactions here confirm just about what I expected.

Now here's my story, which I think is even more telling:

In beta, all I knew was the deed had failed to complete. There were really no clear warnings as to what had gone wrong, but I knew something had.

So, on live, I knew I had to be very, very careful and make sure I didn't end up with a locked deed. So I followed everything super carefully.

The quest said to stick to this path, so by God, I stuck to the path. And therein was the problem -- or one of several problems -- with the quest.

I shifted myself into walk mode and traversed the course a number of times. Finally, I happened to come so close to the endpoint -- even thought maybe it was a quest ring I should be aiming for -- that the concluding dialogue box popped up.

I was able to cancel out and go back and start the quest over but it still took several hours of my cautiously creeping about and begging for help in glff to find out that in fact, you don't stay on the path, and you just wander all over heck and gone hoping and hoping that a quest will finally activate.

Also, it is NOT at all certain from the deed that all of the steps are activated by the whistle. Having been through beta, I guessed that they were but after long hours of wandering I began to wonder if only SOME of them were activated by the whistle.

Fortunately, I stuck with it and got it done, but it was only because I knew to expect trouble.

Not everyone has the advantage that I did of getting a warning preview.

All in all, this is definitely a deed that needs a workaround in the next patch.

[0rdinary0wl]

The deed is specifically there to list the quests needed to complete it. It was added because people in Beta were complaining about not knowing whether they found all the discoverables (which are completely optional and do not affect the division quest deed) or not. I am beginning to regret adding it.

There are only three discoverables, and the quest clearly indicates you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest. This is no different than Annuminas. It also clearly indicates what route to follow (basically bee-line to the quest guide, which crosses the discoverable hotspots for all quests).

I cannot emphasize more to READ THE QUESTS. If you don't, then you miss what the game is all about and miss any guidance and instruction. That's not going to change.

I am reading the quests. That is exactly what brought me here. I saw this thread before I actually knew what it meant and I have been working on this quest chain for almost the past hour.

Right now I'm sitting at 4/7 because I didn't bee-line it to the quest guide. I read the quests and go about completing them. Going after the mobs I needed for the quest objectives lead me off the path suggested by Andreg.

I'll finish the deed, but it's really frustrating right now having to wander around the Gravenwood trying to figure where I should have gone. I'm probably going to end up spending a good chunk of my night just trying to complete this.

[Fishgood]

Completed two quests Andreg gave me. One was about scouting a road, the other about picking up filth or something from the ground.

Summoned him at the Rhohan camp, handed in top quest and he disappears, whistle disappears and it says the second quest failed.

Huh?

Cause I really got the time to waste reading quests about riding up a road and picking up filth.

[leary]

I read every single quest and I followed all the questlines. Still I managed to skip one of the required quests for this, even though I walked through whole Gravenwood because I loved the design and the feeling in it. Andreg was probably stuck somewhere in the back and didn't give me that one quest. The deed name isn't self explanatory, and the warning is just not good enough.

FIX IT!
(since we know you can fix things you want swiftly *corpses*)

[AlphaMan]

My question is, why not just have him appear at the Rohirrim Scout-camp? It's not as if he's gone from Middle-Earth at this point. Having a character teleport in and teleport out unlike every other character in the game seems to be a bit of an odd design choice, in my opinion.


Also, doesn't missing this prevent gaining THREE deeds (Dunland quest deed, Gravenwood quest deed, Old Goat Deed), not just the goat? That's a big loss for misreading a quest or having a bit of an itchy trigger finger, and a unique loss unlike even the limited time quests of old.

Edit: One more thing, it's a bit more ridiculous given how you obtain the quests involved in Tracking the old goat: you wander around the gravenwood and hope you stumble across a new quest. Given that the red text doesn't actually explain how you obtain the Old Goat quests or that you're supposed to find them completely on your own (hoping you'll find an area where Andreg gets a quest-ring) there's no reasonable way to assume the majority of players will be lucky enough or even have him out at the proper time (my initial instinct was to ride my horse to the scout camp, which would mean no quests would appear at all had I done that). It is definitely NOT a bee-line to the end goal (I was heading straight there and encountered three of the 7 quests rings).


Now, it is a unique idea for a quest series, and ROI has plenty of other unique ideas that work well, I just don't think this works out in the end. If it was a single quest or two unrelated to anything else/any larger deeds (especially not three) then it wouldn't be a big problem, just one of those legendary things experienced players warn new players about. However, it just seems to not have worked out as planned, and that's the way things are sometimes. Having an alternative solution (placing Andreg in the scout-camp afterwards for instance) would be very much appreciated.

[semjaza]

I'm not really pleased about this either. I read the quest text, I saw the warning... but from what I remember it doesn't make it clear that simply accepting the next quest will cancel the others, it says something like "progressing this quest" or "advancing this quest".

What does that even mean exactly? What sort of "progress" or "advancement"? Accepting it? Completing it? Doing something else he's going to ask of me? It's totally unclear.

I thought I could accept this, do the others and then finish this one. I really wasn't under the impression that clicking accept would cancel everything else instantaneously. Plus I think it's fair to say that we're pretty programmed to just click accept for 99.9% of quests -- you have to give people some more slack when changing that formula.

It takes me so damn long to get anywhere in this game because I do READ the quests. I do not feel this is worded as clearly as Turbine does, apparently. Maybe I'm just nuts.

It seems like it'd be smarter to just not even give us the option to end the quest line until the rest of it is done.

---

I don't even care necessarily that I can't get the Old Goat Deed. I can get being penalized for missing it, I have other characters. I think this is misleading and it should be fixed, but to me something is more important:

There's also a deed for getting all of the quests in the Gravenwood AND a deed for doing all of the quests in the areas in Dunland. Are these affected by that too? If that's the case... I click one button and then I can't get ANY of that? Come on.

I hope that's not true, but I don't personally know yet. Maybe someone else knows.

[0rdinary0wl]

I don't even care necessarily that I can't get the Old Goat Deed. I can get being penalized for missing it, I have other characters. I think this is misleading and it should be fixed, but to me something is more important:

There's also a deed for getting all of the quests in the Gravenwood AND a deed for doing all of the quests in the areas in Dunland. Are these affected by that too? If that's the case... I click one button and then I can't get ANY of that? Come on.

I hope that's not true, but I don't personally know yet. Maybe someone else knows.

This should answer any concerns you have:

The deed is specifically there to list the quests needed to complete it. It was added because people in Beta were complaining about not knowing whether they found all the discoverables (which are completely optional and do not affect the division quest deed) or not.

[semjaza]

This should answer any concerns you have:

Thank you, that does help with that portion. I appreciate it.

[Esdric]

I also have to agree that there is definitely an issue with this deed. While running around with Andreg, I read all the quests I got from him, and I noticed the deed when it first popped up. The problem here is that I never realized that all the other quests for the deed only come from Andreg before you complete the quest that dismisses him. I saw and understood the warning on the quest, but I assumed the rest of the deed quests would take place later in the quest chronology. There is nothing in the deed or quests that I ever saw that warns of this. Heck, the first quest in the deed list is for talking to Saeradan, so I logically assumed the rest would take place later. Therefore, when I saw the warning in the dismiss quest, I thought I was fine, as there was no quests clearly available from Andreg or anyone at the scout camp.

So, baring that I regularly scour the forums for problem quests, have a friend that power levels through new content to warn me, or someone the happens to send out a warning in chat during the brief window that I would know what their talking about, I would have absolutely no warning that I can never now complete this quest. Unfortunately, none of these happened for me, so now I'm forever stuck.

I love to complete deeds of this sort and deeds in general. Never being able to complete this now is going to irk me for a long time. Please fix this so that we can complete it later, weather being able to bring back Andreg later, or through scrying or something.

[Crell_1]

My question is, why not just have him appear at the Rohirrim Scout-camp? It's not as if he's gone from Middle-Earth at this point. Having a character teleport in and teleport out unlike every other character in the game seems to be a bit of an odd design choice, in my opinion.

Agreed.

Also, doesn't missing this prevent gaining THREE deeds (Dunland quest deed, Gravenwood quest deed, Old Goat Deed), not just the goat? That's a big loss for misreading a quest or having a bit of an itchy trigger finger, and a unique loss unlike even the limited time quests of old

You can complete the Gravenwood quest deed without these quests, I know 2 people who broke the ranger and have just finished the quest deed fine.

[AlphaMan]

Agreed.



You can complete the Gravenwood quest deed without these quests, I know 2 people who broke the ranger and have just finished the quest deed fine.

That's a relief. In all honesty, that was my biggest concern, though the "tracking the old goat" still interests me (what goat are we tracking? what's going on? etc). Thanks for the confirmation though.

I'd just say, from a design standpoint, having it more akin to the Evendim quest that this corresponds with (the journal that updates in the field) would make more sense, so you don't have to hunt to FIND the quests in the first place (because otherwise you have to assume they're in that same area to find them, there's no other indication).

Now that I've given it some time I've cooled a bit and it's not the biggest thing in the world, just seems a little sloppy.