Rise of Isengard: Guardian Dev Diary Feedback

[ImirielOfTheNorth]

Wow...now that is heart-breaking post.

And yet it is true.

[MorliX]

I feel you Lyvos - I loved my guardian enough not to allow it to be demeaned by what I had expected this update would do...retired to the Elysian fields with my memory fully intact of things I did with it, relative to what other players and toons could then do. Sometimes when a better fighter comes along, the best a wizened gunslinger can do is to sit down peacably, if no genuine need to fight on has been presented. I did my fighting here trying to prevent it - if/when the time seems right, I and my guard may fight again.

[Aisolon]

In some instances Guardians are indeed no longer needed which is such a shame.
Where is the time we Guardians were the only thing that could withstand all the heat of the battle?
The time before those silly little Javelin throwers, the time before the rise of the champion..

For other instances though ...
I love seeing the Globallff posts where people ask for a Tank for 20 minutes and you can finally decide to go help after handing in a first batch of quests..

Though as many have said before me..
It's no longer the same anymore, maybe I should just go play a champion and feel useful again.

Turbine started melding the Guardian's role into the Champion class long ago.
I hold no love for them for doing that. Thanks for making months and months playing my guardian feel like a waste of time!

[Vardiel]

Guardian being my second-in-line character at the time, I feel bad. I'll keep trying to see how it goes, kinship will take me in fellowships if we have an abundance of healers already. So I might not be all useless. Who knows.

As a main minstrel I can't express gratitude to the meat and shield wall that used to be the Guardian. Even when I healed too much and draw the attention of enemies, they ran behind me telling me to "stand still you fool!" and still managed to save me (despite my efforts, hah!)

I'm not all that sure that guardian as a class is totally broken, but as captain is mostly rediculous as a DPSer, they do seem to be in need far seldom than before. Even backstabbing burglars are getting some love (and about time too!) now.

[Stif]

Our DPS tests in the new Rise of Isengard world also indicated that Guardians DPS is somewhat lacking. While it is intended that Guardian DPS is not earth shattering, especially when tanking, the results have been much lower than we prefer. In response, we are increasing Guardian DPS in a behind-the-scene fashion.

Level 65 in tanking traits, it was about 90 damage per hit; now level 71, same traits, it is 92... Good Job there! it takes me about 2 minutes to kill a 6k morale mob, and as the repop is very fast in Dunland, it is simply impossible to go ahead with a guardian alone (and i don't even talk about the pit of iron...).

As for the moment only champs are required on the global, I will tell you how tanking is in instance/raid when I'll be able to participate...

[johnnyo12]

I... absolutely loved my Guardian.

I've had him for two and a half years; it took two of those years to even reach 65 for the first time. Sure, a lot of it was solo play through quests and many a level, but boy did I love that big wall of a shield. I loved it when I could never have to worry about morale, how I could kill a boss with his numerous adds trying to drag me down, how I could pass through five, ten, fifteen, twenty levels without dying once because I was a mountain. Minstrels were the suns that healed us; Captains were the skies that inspired us; Hunters were the waters that washed away our foes. But Guardians were the mountains, mighty and proud, impossible to topple. We dug our roots deep and held back the forces of evil to save our friends and allies. We screamed, we roared, we clashed shield and sword and spear and axe to save all others at the cost of ourselves.

I loved my mountain. As his level grew, so did his story; motives appeared, families were born, thoughts and hopes and dreams developed for this mighty warrior on a luminescent screen. I could try to make another character- a flashy Rune-Keeper, or a sly Burglar- but I would never love them the same way, and I would always go back. I would never fight from afar, or slink through the shadows. I was the wall that holds, the dam that kills the river and protects those behind him.

I was the mountain, but mountains erode.

We have fallen, and we have fallen far. We are no longer mountains, dams or walls. All of Middle-Earths heroes are stronger than ever, but where is their shield? What use is the shield when all foes can be killed in seconds, and what use is the Guardian when nearly any other class can fill its place? The mountains are gone, and all that is left are hills.

I will never delete my Guardian, for he has come so far from home. But will he fight on? He has accomplished much already; he held back Mordrambor when Narmeleth most needed aid, forced the Watcher back into the depths of Moria, rescued his dwarven friends from the darkness of Mirkwood. But perhaps this is where it ends.

Perhaps retirement won't be so terrible. Perhaps he has done enough already. As much as I love him, therein lies the fault- I can never leave him. He may get rejected from every group I request, but I'll never be an archer or a healer. I'll always be the guardian, even if the guardian has no place in this world anymore.

I won't abandon Middle-Earth just yet. But I can no longer save it. I will no longer pay for it. I will fish and wander, give aid to those who need it, and grow tired. And sooner or later, I will leave. Perhaps to somewhere that I'm needed, or wanted, even- where my fellow guardians and tanks will get the attention we need and deserve, where we can do our job faithfully, and without reproach. And sadly, my friends- the ones I protected through thick and thin- will understand.

When the Store is a feature and not a threat, when the community speaks and the creator answers, once the grind is enjoyable and when we become mountains again, Middle-Earth might just be as great as it once was.

Until then, the distant shores are calling, and I am ready to answer.



There's nothing my hero and I want from this universe anymore.

Rest easy, my Guardian.

there is no way I could say this any better... perhaps they will send a ship for us to leave on...

[Mikli]

+++ for the Letter

[Isleiff]

I... absolutely loved my Guardian.
...

Rest easy, my Guardian.

This is so well said about this sad story.
My Guardian is still my one and only main character. I remember the time when I was 48 and my kinmates were glad because I was now the second guardian for the Rift, and trying the rift with only one was suicide.
Much happened since then.

Now I will have my fun time in Dunland, enjoying the questing (which I think is quite nice in RoI) and slowly rise to 75. I haven't visited my trainer for a few levels, because the so-called "updated" skills are so laughable.
After that... well, Christmas is not so far now, and then some very distant shores are calling me.

[Funkitron]

...I haven't visited my trainer for a few levels, because the so-called "updated" skills are so laughable.
After that... well, Christmas is not so far now, and then some very distant shores are calling me.

I went to a trainer last night having not done for around 5 levels (I'm currently at 74). I was a bit disappointed to see that the new skills cost me in excess of 2gold. It was a mission just trying to convince myself to spend that much money on skills which will essentially make no difference at all to my characters abilities.

[Vardiel]

I went to a trainer last night having not done for around 5 levels (I'm currently at 74). I was a bit disappointed to see that the new skills cost me in excess of 2gold. It was a mission just trying to convince myself to spend that much money on skills which will essentially make no difference at all to my characters abilities.

I've been levelling my minstrel a lot lately. I had three "new" skills - all of them upgrades. Okay, good upgrades as they add more people affected by those skills and add new features to them. But still.. c'mon... upgrade skills?

And they cost so much too. I went under 20 gold carried first time in ages.

[grumpy.old.dwarf]

I... absolutely loved my Guardian.

I've had him for two and a half years; it took two of those years to even reach 65 for the first time. Sure, a lot of it was solo play through quests and many a level, but boy did I love that big wall of a shield. I loved it when I could never have to worry about morale, how I could kill a boss with his numerous adds trying to drag me down, how I could pass through five, ten, fifteen, twenty levels without dying once because I was a mountain. Minstrels were the suns that healed us; Captains were the skies that inspired us; Hunters were the waters that washed away our foes. But Guardians were the mountains, mighty and proud, impossible to topple. We dug our roots deep and held back the forces of evil to save our friends and allies. We screamed, we roared, we clashed shield and sword and spear and axe to save all others at the cost of ourselves.

I loved my mountain. As his level grew, so did his story; motives appeared, families were born, thoughts and hopes and dreams developed for this mighty warrior on a luminescent screen. I could try to make another character- a flashy Rune-Keeper, or a sly Burglar- but I would never love them the same way, and I would always go back. I would never fight from afar, or slink through the shadows. I was the wall that holds, the dam that kills the river and protects those behind him.

I was the mountain, but mountains erode.

We have fallen, and we have fallen far. We are no longer mountains, dams or walls. All of Middle-Earths heroes are stronger than ever, but where is their shield? What use is the shield when all foes can be killed in seconds, and what use is the Guardian when nearly any other class can fill its place? The mountains are gone, and all that is left are hills.

I will never delete my Guardian, for he has come so far from home. But will he fight on? He has accomplished much already; he held back Mordrambor when Narmeleth most needed aid, forced the Watcher back into the depths of Moria, rescued his dwarven friends from the darkness of Mirkwood. But perhaps this is where it ends.

Perhaps retirement won't be so terrible. Perhaps he has done enough already. As much as I love him, therein lies the fault- I can never leave him. He may get rejected from every group I request, but I'll never be an archer or a healer. I'll always be the guardian, even if the guardian has no place in this world anymore.

I won't abandon Middle-Earth just yet. But I can no longer save it. I will no longer pay for it. I will fish and wander, give aid to those who need it, and grow tired. And sooner or later, I will leave. Perhaps to somewhere that I'm needed, or wanted, even- where my fellow guardians and tanks will get the attention we need and deserve, where we can do our job faithfully, and without reproach. And sadly, my friends- the ones I protected through thick and thin- will understand.

When the Store is a feature and not a threat, when the community speaks and the creator answers, once the grind is enjoyable and when we become mountains again, Middle-Earth might just be as great as it once was.

Until then, the distant shores are calling, and I am ready to answer.



There's nothing my hero and I want from this universe anymore.

Rest easy, my Guardian.

+ all the Reputation i can give. 120% my feelings too.

[rambokc]

My Guardian's love for the world will never be reciprocrated,
I will still love anyway.

My Guardian and I spent months and years bonding only to be cast aside by Turbine overnight,
I will still bond anyway.

My Guardian has tanked so many blows for them and yet they've forgotten,
I will still tank anyway.

My Guardian will give them his best and they will still claim it's not good enough,
I will still give my best anyway.

Because you see, what really matters is between ME and MY GUARDIAN,
Is that nothing will come betwwen us two anyway.

I love you my little guard-ie. I really do.

[Lemarex]

I... absolutely loved my Guardian.

I've had him for two and a half years; it took two of those years to even reach 65 for the first time. Sure, a lot of it was solo play through quests and many a level, but boy did I love that big wall of a shield. I loved it when I could never have to worry about morale, how I could kill a boss with his numerous adds trying to drag me down, how I could pass through five, ten, fifteen, twenty levels without dying once because I was a mountain. Minstrels were the suns that healed us; Captains were the skies that inspired us; Hunters were the waters that washed away our foes. But Guardians were the mountains, mighty and proud, impossible to topple. We dug our roots deep and held back the forces of evil to save our friends and allies. We screamed, we roared, we clashed shield and sword and spear and axe to save all others at the cost of ourselves.

I loved my mountain. As his level grew, so did his story; motives appeared, families were born, thoughts and hopes and dreams developed for this mighty warrior on a luminescent screen. I could try to make another character- a flashy Rune-Keeper, or a sly Burglar- but I would never love them the same way, and I would always go back. I would never fight from afar, or slink through the shadows. I was the wall that holds, the dam that kills the river and protects those behind him.

I was the mountain, but mountains erode.

We have fallen, and we have fallen far. We are no longer mountains, dams or walls. All of Middle-Earths heroes are stronger than ever, but where is their shield? What use is the shield when all foes can be killed in seconds, and what use is the Guardian when nearly any other class can fill its place? The mountains are gone, and all that is left are hills.

I will never delete my Guardian, for he has come so far from home. But will he fight on? He has accomplished much already; he held back Mordrambor when Narmeleth most needed aid, forced the Watcher back into the depths of Moria, rescued his dwarven friends from the darkness of Mirkwood. But perhaps this is where it ends.

Perhaps retirement won't be so terrible. Perhaps he has done enough already. As much as I love him, therein lies the fault- I can never leave him. He may get rejected from every group I request, but I'll never be an archer or a healer. I'll always be the guardian, even if the guardian has no place in this world anymore.

I won't abandon Middle-Earth just yet. But I can no longer save it. I will no longer pay for it. I will fish and wander, give aid to those who need it, and grow tired. And sooner or later, I will leave. Perhaps to somewhere that I'm needed, or wanted, even- where my fellow guardians and tanks will get the attention we need and deserve, where we can do our job faithfully, and without reproach. And sadly, my friends- the ones I protected through thick and thin- will understand.

When the Store is a feature and not a threat, when the community speaks and the creator answers, once the grind is enjoyable and when we become mountains again, Middle-Earth might just be as great as it once was.

Until then, the distant shores are calling, and I am ready to answer.



There's nothing my hero and I want from this universe anymore.

Rest easy, my Guardian.

+ Rep, Lyvos, cause that was beautiful. I fell in love with a guardian, and I will always love the class (not only because of that). I also play a guardian and think they are really fun. They are truly a wonderful class, and I wouldn't be sad. Guardians will always be needed and someday they will get the love and attention from Devs that they deserve. Right now, nothing we say here seems to make any difference and we can't even get answers as to why this great class has been completely ignored. Nevertheless, there is always hope...and in the meantime, there are still a lot of "guardopihiles" out there...hehe.

[Stif]

I went in some instances with my guard and there is no problem at all with him. He can take agro easily and keep it, he can suffer lots of hits, etc. However, same as before, don't count on him for DPS...

The real problem is that now champions (and to a lesser extent captains) can do the same (take agro, keep it, and suffer hits) but also they can do better DPS. Of course, even if it is less easy to heal a champ than a guard, his DPS is well above the guard, so the combat is shorter.

- "Hey do you prefer earning three 4th sup marks in 10 or 30 minutes?"

- "Do you prefer going to Sammath Gûl with a guard which just takes hits or with a champ that takes the sames, do DPS on Gorothul, interrupts him each 5 seconds, and do AoE on skeletons?"

There is the real problem. By now, champions are more interesting tanks than guards. Guards are (were?) highly interesting only in the role of a MT, and to a lesser extent OT. Champions were really interesting for their DPS, interrupts, OT capability, and now for MT!!! Isn't it too much for a single class? and what about guards if they are not interesting anymore in their main role?

The only viable solution I see to restore the guard's use is to differentiate him (and warden) in terms of resistance with classes that are not main tanking classes. If resistance rate of the guard/warden is 70%, other classes (such as captains and champions) must not exceed 50%. Unless doing that, guards and wardens will simply die.

[.Onji.]

Sorry for breaking the trend, but I don't see the problems at all, that people have been writing in these last pages.
Sure we did not get a lot of dev attention, but then we were in a pretty good state anyway. Some love is always nice, but rahter getting little to none than getting to much and change/breakes the class to much.

I have absolutley no problem tanking, I can withstand tons of damage, what else do we need. And I have had absolutley no problem getting into groups, be it 3-man, 6-man or 12-mans. There's always people asking for tanks in globallff, never been refused.

People in here sure are making it sound like we're completley broken and trashed.. We're far from it.

[Cebra]

There is the real problem. By now, champions are more interesting tanks than guards. Guards are (were?) highly interesting only in the role of a MT, and to a lesser extent OT. Champions were really interesting for their DPS, interrupts, OT capability, and now for MT!!! Isn't it too much for a single class? and what about guards if they are not interesting anymore in their main role?

The only viable solution I see to restore the guard's use is to differentiate him (and warden) in terms of resistance with classes that are not main tanking classes. If resistance rate of the guard/warden is 70%, other classes (such as captains and champions) must not exceed 50%. Unless doing that, guards and wardens will simply die.

100% fully agree with this, however Champs will counter that argument by saying they have to trait differently and do less dps when in Glory stance (yet more than a guard or warden similarly traited) and that the only tools they have for generating and keeping threat is dps. Does this not sound like a perfect off-tank to any of you?

Give us back our main tank roles and let the champs and to a lesser degree captains stay as off-tanks.

[Vodomir]

The real problem is that now champions (and to a lesser extent captains) can do the same (take agro, keep it, and suffer hits) but also they can do better DPS. Of course, even if it is less easy to heal a champ than a guard, his DPS is well above the guard, so the combat is shorter.

I still haven't seen any conclusive parses on this, showing that a tank specced glory champ out-DPS'es a Guard.

- "Do you prefer going to Sammath Gûl with a guard which just takes hits or with a champ that takes the sames, do DPS on Gorothul, interrupts him each 5 seconds, and do AoE on skeletons?"

What's the deal with SG or any other kind of 6 man instance? Prior to RoI a champ could easily "fervour-tank" SG on level. There never was a need for a guard or warden in SG, not even for speccing glory. I don't see how RoI affects your experience here.

And if I go way back in time to Shadows of Angmar, when we all used to be level 50, there wasn't a need for a guard in Urugarth, Carn Dum or Barad Gularan either.

[Stif]

People in here sure are making it sound like we're completley broken and trashed.. We're far from it.

You are right Onji, we are not broken. The only class that seems to be broken is Warden, and I understand that.
Concerning guards, I just say that we can't do anything but tanking. Other classes can have different roles, but not guardians. Yes, some can say that a guard can do DPS... Personally, I prefer a champ, RK, hunter or else than a guard which DPS is very low compared to real DPS classes, needs more power, and can accidentally generate threat if he miss a key ^^.
On the other side, guardians should have a real advantage as a MT but he doesn't have in most of instances/raids. That is what I call an injustice

And for the champ DPS in tanking traits, it is still superior to the one from other classes

To be honest, I think it would be difficult for a champ to tank Ivar & Gortheron in Ost Dunhoth, and this is the only case I think most of players would prefer a guard. But except that, what use are we guards now?

[Vodomir]

You are right Onji, we are not broken. The only class that seems to be broken is Warden, and I understand that.
Concerning guards, I just say that we can't do anything but tanking. Other classes can have different roles, but not guardians. Yes, some can say that a guard can do DPS... Personally, I prefer a champ, RK, hunter or else than a guard which DPS is very low compared to real DPS classes, needs more power, and can accidentally generate threat if he miss a key ^^.
On the other side, guardians should have a real advantage as a MT but he doesn't have in most of instances/raids. That is what I call an injustice

And for the champ DPS in tanking traits, it is still superior to the one from other classes

To be honest, I think it would be difficult for a champ to tank Ivar & Gortheron in Ost Dunhoth, and this is the only case I think most of players would prefer a guard. But except that, what use are we guards now?

I really think that Guards still DO have a huge advantage in terms of survivability (larger morale pool, higher resistances/mitigations and better avoidance, more Emergency Skills, as the Champ-Tank is actually forced to used his "Emergency Skills" as part of his tanking rotation to keep alive), it just doesn't show at the moment due to the lack of any demanding content. Draigoch is way too easy and skirmishes hardly count for demanding endgame content either. There's also no real on level instances at the moment.

As for the DPS part, a blut traited champ can for sure out-DPS a guard, if he just goes for DPS. But once we see proper on level content, the champ tanks will have to focus more on survival skills, thus lowering their DPS. I'm not sure that a Champ will still out-DPS a guard then. DPS'ing a dummy or going to the moors in glory spec hardly yields the same result as actually tanking something that hits hard.

[Stif]

In my opinion (just mine ^^) guards have not a so huge advantage as his mitigations are the same as other heavy armors classes (captain & champion). Personally, what bothers me the most is that champions, which already have a huge DPS (currently the biggest of the game imo) also have a guard mitigations. Sure, a champ can't block as a guard, but he can takes the same hits, and parry/evade better than a guard, so I think it is approximately the same. I say approximately because I have seen champs tanking with 10k morale, using a bubble, etc. and as a healer, it feels almost the same as if it was a guard. So my problem is, champs are overpowered because of their DPS and their tanking ability. Maybe i'll change my mind with update 5 and a new HL content...

I know, it's bad to be jealous but I can't help it, I think that now champs are far above over classes because of that. I also think that Minis are as well overpowered as they can do very important DPS and heal themselves effectively. My RK is totally unable to do the same. He does less DPS, takes much damage, and can only heal himself with a HoT of 72 .

This message is not a criticism for other classes, it is just what I feel since RoI...

[Arlecchino79]

I'm a guardian and i think that the class is ok.
We have skill for tanking that no other class have.. we must learn to use them properly and if we know how to use our class, we're the best for tanking job.

[Stif]

Here is the new content and HL instances!
Do you know Draghnak (whatever his name...) the troll that blows everything around him? I saw a champ tanking him (T2) in fervour with just a minstrel healing him, and my hunter DPSing.
I tried the same with my guard, and you know what? Still it was easier for the mini to heal a guard than a champ, I was stun every 20 secs and did very poor damages so it took twice the time to finish.

Honestly, if you have the choice, do you prefer a guard or a champ for tanking these instances?

Once again, I don't say we are broken, i even think we are fine with tanking and mitigations and it is evident that we generate much more threat than before. I just think we are partly useless because at least one other class, which is not a MT class is more interresting for most instances. And I don't even talk about wardens...

[Altarias-EU]

Here is the new content and HL instances!
Do you know Draghnak (whatever his name...) the troll that blows everything around him? I saw a champ tanking him (T2) in fervour with just a minstrel healing him, and my hunter DPSing.
I tried the same with my guard, and you know what? Still it was easier for the mini to heal a guard than a champ, I was stun every 20 secs and did very poor damages so it took twice the time to finish.

Honestly, if you have the choice, do you prefer a guard or a champ for tanking these instances?

Once again, I don't say we are broken, i even think we are fine with tanking and mitigations and it is evident that we generate much more threat than before. I just think we are partly useless because at least one other class, which is not a MT class is more interresting for most instances. And I don't even talk about wardens...

Regarding Darghnak, you dont need to DPS him at all. In fact that instance is so friendly to a low DPS set up (you only need some at the angmarim boss), that you can even go with LM DPS.

The champ gets stunned just as often as you would, whats your point? Guardians are not even partly useless, that's rubbish

[Stif]

No need for DPS on a 440k HP boss? Ok, why not... One thing is sure, we do not play the same way... And I told in my last message we were running T2... Of course it is possible to do it without much DPS, but spending 2 hours for one or two seals, I prefer having some DPS and do it in 30 minutes, that is just my opinion.

A champ is stun as often as a guard? Are you sure about that? As a guard, I can avoid a stun (and have a CJ) every 3min30s (with legs maxed). And a champ doesn't have a competence that immunes him from stuns? For sure I know there is one, the champ I play with always tells me that comp is awesome, and he can't be stunned while Draghnak do his AoE so he can exit from this area very quickly.
My guard is stunned, has the immu for 20/30 sec and then is immediately stunned again. Ok, that's boring, but that's the game.

Really, I try o be objective but in much instances, what is the point in choosing a guard instead of a champ? That is the question, my question at least.

[EDIT: We figured out there is a translation error in the french version of Darghnak T2 challenge. What's written is to kill him without breaking the ceiling but it's just the opposite...... Thanks to traductors... However, I maintain that, if you don't have a LM with you, a champ is more interesting than a guard in there...]