Tracking an Old Goat

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

blah blah blah blame the victim nonsense

This whole quest line is setting up the player to fail. And then leaves a monument to it in the deed log.

The entire game, only timed quests really required that I get going on a quest right away. There wasn't a timer. Little did I know that there was a unmentioned assumption that I'd start that quest right away from that exact point. If you don't start right there, then well, too bad, the whole quest no longer makes any sense. There wasn't some special point where it said, "HEY, YOU! DO THIS RIGHT NOW OR IT WON'T WORK RIGHT" The whole game is designed around not requiring that. If something has been scripted, it's in an instance so we are made aware that we need to do THIS now. Please, raise you hand if you didn't spend the entirety of dunland running to a town, picking up all the quests you can do all at once, doing them, and then moving on to the next town.

The previous attempts at this "mobile quest giver" mechanic was done way WAY better in evendim. Everything flowed smoothly, no matter HOW you did it. I certainly never experienced the case where the game let you drop the mobile quest giver before actually completing the task. Perhaps it didn't let you, perhaps it was just better designed, I don't know. All I know is that this andreg stupidity is poorly designed AT BEST.

As for previous examples of lost content. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are the Game Intro and the Moria Intro, both of which are set pieces inside instances. Not just random quests out in the wilderness with no telling us that this is something special.

And don't even get me started on the HORRIBLE UI we see when the quest line is closing. For the entirety of the game "canceling a quest" means I can go back and try again later. Now suddenly it means, "permanently close off this content that I haven't finished" That window shouldn't even let you permanently cancel the quest line if you aren't done, without a MUCH more clear warning and multiple dialogs. It warns you that quests, which I don't have, are going to be canceled. OK, that has always meant I could go back and get them again. After all, i'm out in the world, not in an intro instance. Instead, what do we see? A dialog with only ONE button that permanently closes off the content. Apparently what I was supposed to do is click the "x" button in the top right of the dialog. I didn't even know that was there!

The problems with this quest line are many. Many little things that lead the player down a road to failure. And then ends it with an unfinishable deed in my log that stands as a monument to them all.

If this is indicative of the future of lotro's quest design, I must say that I don't like it AT ALL and is, to me, a serious failure in forethought by the development team.

[Ellis]

In this thread as a whole, as in the shorter one, there has been a lot of complaint about straying off the invisible pathway for the quests, and getting off course, and how unfair it is that it's not marked, and your quest compass doesn’t point you to them.

I'm getting quite tired of seeing that complain, because here's the thing:

The invisible carpet you mention is the ROAD. You know, that clearly visible path that he TELLS you to walk along? It's a road, on the ground, for you to follow. The path you need is marked out, conveniently by an actual path. it's a path, for you to follow. That's what paths are for. The places for bestowal are not by any means small, either. Each is actually about a 40 metre diameter circle. Each is a fairly substantial position. It’s not one tiny pixel that’s easy to miss; if you follow his initial instructions, you WILL find them all.

Here let me be clear: His Instructions. Not necessarily your quest guide pointer, which makes a straight line, off the path. I do not use the quest guide, personally. I followed what the quest told me to do, though, and it seemed very clear about it.

You are long-winded and wrong. I had to run back and forth all over the trigger points to get Andreg to give me the quests on my second character. I was sitting there, armed with the exact locations, too. And expecting every single player to do a beeline, when there are nodes to mine is bad design. I not only carefully read the quests on my first character, I kept Andreg a whole week beyond what I normally would have, then erroneously thought other NPCs would give the other 2 quests.

Hopefully, for those who need the deed completed, fellowing with someone who has an Andreg might work.

[Hurin]

Hey just dropping in since I wanted to respond to some discussion that went on briefly in the stub thread that's been closed (since this one is still active)... after glancing through though I find myself despairing utterly for the ability of players in the larger majority to think for themselves a little bit.

It must be a terrible burden to be the only intelligent person in your world.

As before, no offence is intended in any of this,

If you don't intend offense, you might want to stop strongly insinuating that everyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid.

Not all of the quests in the deed come from, or are handed in to, Andreg. That is why the deed lists several names. However, yes, it’s a fair assumption that anyone switched on a little bit must reach to see that some of the quests in the deed will come from him, since he’s standing in front of you bestowing some of them when you first summon him.

Another straw man. Nobody here disputes that some of the quests in the deed come from Andreg since that is self-evident. What is at issue is that nowhere is it made clear that the deed serves as a checklist intended to let you know that Andreg and you might have accidentally bypassed some quests of which the player might be totally unaware. And since he's totally unaware that he bypassed those quests, and the deed is unclear that those bypassed quests come from Andreg, the player happily heeds Andreg's warning about "underway" quests, finishes those he has and then dismisses Andreg. Only later does he realize that the other unfinished quests in the deed should have come from Andreg.

Hurin asked how that was made clear, citing that the bestowal did no such thing, however, from the bestowal:
“I will take you… But first I need your assistance”
“As we journey… Perhaps you will help… between here and there.”
“Stay along the north face of the southern hills”

. . . And?

Again, you dodge. Nobody disputes that Andreg was there to do something with you. But you originally asserted that the non-standard mechanics were made painfully clear by the bestowal dialog. So, again, in those words you've quoted above, how are the mechanics made clear? Where is it made clear --in that text-- that he'll have more quests for you at various points? Where is made clear --in that text-- that he might have had other quests for you if you hadn't wandered off the invisible path? Where is it made clear that the deed is the "checklist" that must be completed before Andreg is dismissed and not just a list of quests (per usual) that you can complete at your leisure (where one assumes that quests not given by Andreg --because he didn't offer them-- will be available from someone else later)?

So, yes, it is Very clear from the dialogue that we will at least be doing SOMETHING else along the way.

Way to move the goalposts.

Perhaps people might be expecting a simple patrol-point scout, yes… but if they follow the instructions, that guess is very quickly dispelled. They might also reconsider that if they get three quarters there without seeing and patrol-point marker, and wonder what he might actually have meant.

Yes, and then they pick up whatever quests they do see and have no reason to think they might have missed any. And they might notice a deed, but that deed in no way makes it clear that all those quests were on Andreg at points you might have missed as you wandered blindly through the forest.

In this thread as a whole, as in the shorter one, there has been a lot of complaint about straying off the invisible pathway for the quests, and getting off course, and how unfair it is that it's not marked, and your quest compass doesn’t point you to them.

I'm getting quite tired of seeing that complain, because here's the thing:

The invisible carpet you mention is the ROAD. You know, that clearly visible path that he TELLS you to walk along? It's a road, on the ground, for you to follow. The path you need is marked out, conveniently by an actual path. it's a path, for you to follow. That's what paths are for. The places for bestowal are not by any means small, either. Each is actually about a 40 metre diameter circle. Each is a fairly substantial position. It’s not one tiny pixel that’s easy to miss; if you follow his initial instructions, you WILL find them all.

I'm there, now. Looking again. And I can't tell if you're just honestly mistaken or merely suffering from an imperfect memory. . . but there is no "ROAD" for the entire path. I'm there as I write this, standing where Cruel Traps is bestowed, and there is no road in sight. Nor is there one visible for Hunting the Pack. Nor is there one visible when you finally reach the final destination (that angry elite). All three places for which I could track down the coordinates, no road. There are roads in the region, but they do not form any path that takes you on a convenient tour of the quest pick-up areas. And even those roads tend to disappear into the underbrush only to re-emerge at random. And, guess what, I checked out the "north face of the southern hills" and not only is there no road at all there, but it's far, far away from any of the quests. So, there goes the theory about just following the quest bestowal dialog. . .

Further, even were your description of this fanciful road accurate, at no point are we directed to stay on any road. Not by the quest text. Not by the bestowal dialog. And as others have pointed out, not even by the developer who basically just says "make a bee-line for the Rohirrim camp". . . and the roads available don't do that. So, ummmm, you were saying?

Here let me be clear: His Instructions. Not necessarily your quest guide pointer, which makes a straight line, off the path. I do not use the quest guide, personally. I followed what the quest told me to do, though, and it seemed very clear about it.

Oh! I see! So now, in your world, it's downright intuitive to ignore the quest tracker and we all should have just known to do that. No problem there either!

Just. . . unbelievable. . . you habitually belittle the intelligence of those who don't do exactly as you did. . . and yet don't see a contradiction there that you don't use the quest-tracker and that's a primary factor in why you claim everything just worked out for you so peachily. So, what's next, should we all be shunning the quest tracker and that's the only intelligent thing to do? For the record, I did have the quest track turned off until about mid-way through Enedwaith. But, alas, as predicted, the developers have become as dependent on the quest tracker as they players and many quests now lack even basic instructions/directions. It's assumed we'll be using it and the quests are now written/designed with that in mind.

Failure to read “New Deed: Tracking an old goat”, Failure to read the white text flier in the centre of your screen reading the same, Failure to see the new deed alert notification… all of these are Player failures, and not the fault of the game. It notifies you of what’s going on as clearly as it does for anything else in the game, and if it is a person’s standard practice to ignore game notifications, and not read them or examine them, then, as before, they should already be Expecting to miss things.

And. . . again. . . you're dodging. Exactly where is it made clear that the deed is the master list for all the quests you must get from Andreg and that after dismissing Andreg, any quests with which you are unfamiliar (because you never saw them) will be lost for good?

After initially summoning him, many claim that, besides the two he gives you, it is not made apparent that he might have more. The truth is that it's very hard to miss the first "location dependant" quest bestowal, which seems to have been placed right at the beginning of your journey, as a demonstration for you of exactly what's going on, and how it's going to work:

You walk a few steps Down The Path, towards the far camp, and right away, only a handful of character lengths down the path towards the camp, he springs up another ring that wasn’t there before… there are only a few assumptions you could make from this, either that it was time based, or that it was based on location… I can’t currently think of any other options.

Well, as many people have said, one option is that a lot of people think: "Oh, I missed a quest he had. Oops. My bad." Oh, but you seem to be infallible. So I don't expect you to relate. So I'm sure you'll wave your hand over that as well and just say: "They were wrong. They hadn't missed one. Their fault. Their fault. They need to think more like me."

Location based is the most rational assumption to make, however, and it is indeed the correct one.

Except, of course, for all those many people who never saw the Annuminas content, there is no precedent for "location based" and so the most "rational" assumption they could make at this point would be that they merely missed the quest originally when Andreg first popped up.

Simple: initially you are hemmed in by rock walls. You Need to go forward this way to move forward at all, down the road. The only “off the road to get a node” possibility is the raised platform on your left (and yes, there’s usually a node up there), however, you only have two options for getting up there: the first is to walk forward down the road, and you Will pass through the Craban quest zone before getting to the side ramp up. The second is to backtrack around, and you WILL cause Andreg to dismiss himself by going that way… upon dropping down again, you’d be back on track, and anyone interested in finding everything or finishing deeds would pick up where they left off; by resummoning Andreg.

Note the circular logic there. . . we don't know, at this point, that completing the deed depends on Andreg at all. Indeed, at this point, we don't even know that Andreg will be disappearing for good with that red-text warning. You seem to have a very difficult time considering issues in isolation and not bringing in prior knowledge or viewing them retroactively with 20/20 hindsight.

There are no monsters to distract Andreg or the player before reaching this first quest bestowal zone either. It is, in fact, virtually unavoidable to pass through, unless you know where it extends to already and are deliberately TRYING to avoid it. The only way that individuals missed this first one, that acts as a demonstration of what’s going on, is if they didn’t summon him (Player fault), or if they ignored his ring completely as they passed through (Player fault).

At this point it is quite clear that there are quests to be found by toting Andreg around on the way to your destination. The game has told you that you’ve been given a quest item, and told you to use it. Upon using it, a follower appears. This follower says he has some other things to do along the way, and gives you an additional quest to his main one. Walking a few unavoidable steps forward, at a stage that is always free of distraction by monsters, and in a corridor that channels your movement, you move into a new zone which causes him to gain a new bestowal ring, wherein he explains that, since he’s here, there’s this thing he’d like to do.

You're just repeating yourself. And other ways of interpreting that first bestowal have already been suggested. You just dismiss them. Further, have you considered that someone might stop playing for the night, go crafting, or otherwise not summon Andreg and start the quest series from exactly the spot you now isolate as this crucial, infallible spot? (though, as already pointed out, it isn't). Oh, but that's the player's fault if they get tired and port to their house for the night to drop stuff off or sell loot, right? It's always their fault. And the quest shouldn't be designed in such a way as to take such commonplace behavior into account. The player is just an idiot for not doing it exactly like you did it.

The “invisible glidepath” is the Road you are walking on (and were instructed to follow), very visible, very clear,

Sigh, nope.

and a person actually interested in finishing the deed and getting all the quests would be sure to walk it completely, returning to their divergence point after each distraction or quest… Anyone desperately interested in finishing and finding everything who does Not do this is begin VERY silly, and you cannot blame the game for that.

. . . and again. . . assuming perfect knowledge and applying hindsight to what others will be figuring out without prior knowledge or hindsight. At the time they first summon Andreg and begin running off into the woods, they don't necessarily know that they need to be careful with this deed. They don't know that quest rings will appear (and many people are zoomed in and miss them over his head). In a nutshell, they don't know everything we now know and it is "VERY silly" of you to assume that they should know/assume all of these things. They can't be careful about a deed that they don't yet expect to be problematic. They can't be careful to return to the path when they don't yet know that the quests along it can be tricky to locate.

Yes, it is. It’s the road. The quest tracker compass (when pointing to the over-quest) makes a straight line, which takes you almost immediately off the road and the path that Andreg Instructed you to follow. The Direct Path I cited is the path that the quest told you to follow, and lo, there’s conveniently a road roughly along said path, and lo, the “hidden” quests” are all along that road. The bee-line of the guest guide compass, does, technically pass you through each bestowal zone, as well, but you only barely tap the edges of a couple of them if you run in a straight line like that. It’s much smoother and much more straight-forward if, rather than bee-lining according to a compass arrow, you just do what the quest told you to do.

Except the quest doesn't mention a road. And if I follow the "northern face of the southern hills" I come nowhere near a road beyond the initial portion, and I come nowhere near the quets. So, again, you were saying?

This is the other frequent complaint; that people get off the path by Andreg’s enthusiasm and by harvesting and other such things. It’s a non-argument. The quests themselves are distractions from the path, in fact, not to mention everything else. Andreg in particular is very eager to kill things and take their stuff. If, however, you were very much interested in finding and finishing everything, and you did Not return to the point you diverged from after each quest or distraction, to continue your journey then that was very silly, and you’d have only yourself to blame. Many have mentioned that they were unable to do it without getting pulled off the path… of course… but were they honestly unable to then, once it was done, Return to the path where they left it? That’s a pretty basic thing to do when you’re scouting anything… and the game can hardly be blamed if a player wilfully skips over chunks of the path because of distractions.

Repeating yourself and once again bringing up how people should have been being very careful to not screw up something that they (at that point) had no idea was going to be problematic. It's mind-boggling to me how you don't see the problem there.

This baffles me, and is part of what upsets me about the general intelligence level of players,

Someone making as many errors in logic and engaging in circular reasoning as much as you do should probably dial down the frequent and blatant attacks on the intelligence of others.

I’m a guy and I give you quests. You get them from me, and you hand them in to me…. You’ve seen this already with the first one you really couldn’t have avoided picking up, back at the start. I’m Going Away Now. I’m Taking My Whistle With Me, and You Will Not Be Able To Summon Me After This Point. That’s what it tells you.

Yes, the warning then says that it will cancel any quests underway from Andreg. It does not say that “Any quests I Would give you will also be unavailable… Since, you know, I’LL Be Gone And You Won’t Be Able To Summon Me, Like I Just Finished Telling You.”

It doesn’t need to: If someone is going away, and you are losing the ability to summon them, then it is not any sort of logical leap to reach the concept that, due to the fact that they no longer exist and you can no longer speak to them, you will not be able to pick up quests from them either. This is so much of a logical Given that it would be insulting the intelligence of players to have to say so.

Actually, what's insulting to the intelligence of everyone reading this is that you are calling others stupid while showing no ability to understand the very basic point that I and others are making.

It's painful to watch you insult the intelligence of others by pointing out the obvious facts which nobody disputes while totally missing the relevant point: The freakin' point is not that he's going away and we won't be able to get any more quests from him. . . the freakin' point is that we don't even know at that point that there were quests that he could have given us that we will now never get.

Please, read that again. Because it's fundamental and you've missed the subtlety multiple times now. As demonstrated by what you say here. . .

So Yes. It’s Very, Very, Very clear that any quests you have active, haven’t done, OR HAVEN’T PICKED UP FROM HIM, will no longer be available. It doesn’t say that last part because it goes completely without saying, and anyone who assumes that they will be able to pick up quests from Andreg After He Has Gone And Cannot Be Summoned is… I frankly don’t know… but without anything describable as rationality or common sense, for one thing.

I think we're done here. Because it's painfully obvious now that it's actually you who is being (willfully?) obtuse. The issue isn't that we somehow think we should magically be able to get quests from him after we've dismissed him for the final time. The issue is that we are dismissing him for the final time without the knowledge that he never gave us certain quests that we only later realize were necessary to complete a deed (because the nature of the deed as a "laundry list" for this Andreg quest line is only crystal clear in regretful hindsight).

Perhaps their existence is different, and they are living in a world where they can frequently make habit of catching the bus that doesn’t come to their stop, in order to go the shopping centre that wasn’t built, so they can buy food that’s sold out and cook a meal that isn’t there with it…. Do you?

I’m sorry, but pretending that the inability to pick up quests from a bestower that no longer exists is anything other than an absolute Given is beyond stupid. Yes, and I’m not hesitant in saying so: people who didn’t realise that they wouldn’t be able to pick up quests bestowed by Andreg after Andreg no longer existed, did not engage their brain. That is correct.

Since it's now patently obvious that it's actually you who are not understanding fundamental concepts here, I think you owe everyone in this thread an apology. Something tells me it won't be forthcoming.

This is not a pitfall in design: it’s a Different Bestowal Mechanic. If you aren’t prepared to learn about a new mechanic and get to know how it works, that’s Your problem, not the game’s. The game provides a tutorial on wandering quest bestowers as followers, in the first place that it is introduced. The tutorial gives you all the information you need to understand the mechanic.

Further, it's a quest delivery mechanic that Turbine made a Very big deal about advertising and talking about and explaining when they introduced it as an experiment some time ago, with the Annuminas revamp. They spoke at length about it, in fact, and if you didn't keep up with the new, and you didn't keep up with the changes, and you didn't ever take a look at the revamped Annuminas, then, again, that's Not the fault of the game. It's yours.

If a player chooses not to keep up with the new systems being put into the game and trialled, that’s Their problem, not the game’s. If a person never bothered to look at the revamped Annuminas with its much advertised new quest bestowal mechanics, again, that’s Their problem. The game provides you will all the tools and means for understanding everything about it; if a player chooses not to use them, or to ignore them, you cannot blame the game for that. The game cannot cure stubbornness, inattentiveness, over-haste or lack of thought.

Ah, designing quests so that they are only intuitive to those who read dev diaries outside the game or go back and engage content well below their level in areas they last passed through years ago. That doesn't sound like a good idea. But it does explain why you found things so easy, and why you seem to have such a hard time seeing this quest line through any perspective other than your own.

I am perfectly open to other perspective and other interpretations,

Clearly you aren't. And clearly you don't even understand the nuances of the other side's argument. Or you wouldn't have spent paragraph after paragraph misrepresenting their point of view ("They think they should be able to get quests from an NPC they dismissed! Stupid!") and then demeaning them for contentions they don't in fact hold.

I’m not saying that there is only one way to interpret things, however, any rational, moderately thinking interpretation, prepared to be a little bit thorough, will succeed.

The forums terms of service will not allow me to comment on this in the fashion it deserves.

So, in closing. I think it's time to ignore further posts from you. There went both my morning and my evening spent on addressing straw men, insults, and misconceptions on your part.

Until you can actually open your mind, stop assuming everyone else is stupid, and actually see the nuances of the issue here, you're going to just keep insulting people while actually demonstrating that it is you who are confused and not understanding the points of others.

The fundamental issue here is that Andreg disappears forever along with our ability to ever obtain quests that we never even knew he could give us. It is not that we expect to get those quests from him after he warns us about "underway quests" and is dismissed (as you so ridiculously assert and go on and on about). The key is that, at that point, we have no reason to believe that we didn't finish all the quests that he had available. There is a Deed listing quests, but it is not clear to those with no prior knowledge of this quest line that some of the quests in that deed should have already been given to us by Andreg by the time he is about to disappear.

In other words, we see a deed with quests, we see some of those quests come from Andreg and we complete them. When he warns us that underway quests will be canceled, we make sure we finish any quests we have underway. If we notice that the deed is not complete we have no reason to assume that the additional quests won't come from someone else later. So, contrary to your misunderstanding and the repeated insults you repeatedly threw our way while ironically being obtuse yourself, we aren't expecting Andreg to still give us quests after he's gone. Rather, we dismiss him because we have no indication at that time that we didn't get all of his quests and we expect that the deed will be wrapped up by other quest bestowers eventually.

Again, at no point in your long, rambling, insult-filled post did you even come close to acknowledging the actual point we're making. And while showing a stunning inability to actually understand the other side's arguments/positions, you did nothing but insult others based on your own flawed understanding of the issues at play. You really do owe everyone in this thread an apology. But instead, I think we'll just get more of the same.

--H

[Trilwych]

I didn't visit this thread or related "Old Goat" threads before because I try to avoid spoilers, but curiosity got the better of me. (Only after I completed Andreg's whistle thing and now found out I missed most of his location-spawned quests, of course. )

The freakin' point is not that he's going away and we won't be able to get any more quests from him. . . the freakin' point is that we don't even know at that point that there were quests that he could have given us that we will now never get.

^--Truth.

I'm not actually upset about missing this deed because I'm not a deed completist, though I sympathize with those who are. I don't care about the virtue trait either. And I even found the mobile quest-giver mechanic to be refreshing and unique (never did the Annunimas thing that others have mentioned).

But what bothers me is that there are too many open assumptions being made about player interpretation and behavior in order to make a quest chain like this successful, which means to me that the setup is poorly implemented.

Assumptions about text interpretation: The biggest lesson in technical communication (or any communication field) is that the intended meaning of any human communication can easily be lost between the one-way transmission and the ultimate interpretation of the audience. This is the crux of usability and accessibility testing. You can never have a 100% success rate with text instruction whether due to inherent ambiguity of the original transmission (even if the originator believes the communication is clear) or an incomplete/mis-interpretation by the reader (e.g. ESL, sleep deprivation, different conceptual parsing, etc.) without user testing and modification. Or at the very least, listen to feedback like this.

What is obvious from this and related threads is that there are several gaps between the intended communication and interpretation, from the absolute meaning of the red text, to the distracting mention of multiple quest-giver names, to the confusing appearance of the final quest with no indication of "uncompleted" quests, and so forth. This is not the fault of the reader nor even necessarily the writer--something we learn in tech comm and usability testing is that "clarity" is achieved by actively trying to bridge that transmission-interpretation gap, because it's not about fault. It's the way human communication works.

Assumptions about player UI interaction: I do not click the deed alert on the side of my window when I enter a new zone and start questing because none of the deeds I had done before required specific quests to be completed, at least to my memory. Because deeds typically pop up in the middle of questing, even combat, I hate cluttering my view with windows and figure I'll look at them after I do whatever I'm doing--when I'm safely away from all the mobs. Moreover, many players surely disable the "add deed to quest tracker" as I do, so under no circumstance should devs assume that tying a deed to a specific quest chain is obvious.

The other point of UI failure would be the "continue" button as mentioned in other posts. Yes, there is a tiny little box in the upper right corner to close the window, but in standard usability testing, a window like this should not require that or an Escape but include a "finish later" button or something similar. The inferred intention with only a single "option" button is that there is nothing else to do but click that button.


Assumptions about player landscape behavior:

There are only three discoverables, and the quest clearly indicates you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest. This is no different than Annuminas. It also clearly indicates what route to follow (basically bee-line to the quest guide, which crosses the discoverable hotspots for all quests).

Besides the implication that players who didn't do Annuminas quests should know better, the underlined is exactly why I and many others here missed out. I rarely ever do a bee-line based on the quest tracker arrow. As an actual player in the game, I will veer to avoid pointless mob kills which wastes time (especially with an NPC in tow--it feels like an escort quest, and we know how loved those are) and to pick up ore nodes and whatnot. This should have been tested better, and it could have easily been addressed by increasing Andreg's trigger radius.

There are several other good suggestions in this thread as to how to tweak this set of quests, so I won't repeat them, but I think it's important that Turbine and everyone else understand that the break between transmission intent and final interpretation isn't about fault on either end. I'm sure the dev(s) responsible for this chain thought it was clear as day. But there should have been better testing, because the potential for differing interpretation can be as variable as the players themselves; and the LotRO player base is variable. The only question now is how this will be addressed by Turbine, retroactively or not.


However, choosing not to recognize that successful achievement of "clarity" requires user input beyond dev intent is in itself a fault.

[Gripn]

I missed some of the quests, not because I rushed, but because I detoured to avoid mobs and to mine nodes along the way. When I reached the camp, I read the message "Advancing this quest will no longer allow you to summon Andreg and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway". At that point, I had two quests from Andreg underway, so I dismissed the dialogue box and completed the two quests.

When I returned to the camp a second time, I had no quests from Andreg underway, so I mistakenly thought it was now OK for me to advance the quest. The warning text is misleading, since it only refers to quests that are underway. I suggest the text would could be rewritten something like, "You have not yet completed all the quests that can be bestowed by Andreg. If you advance this quest, he will not be able to bestow further quests on you or complete those quests that are underway".

I resent the implication from Harla that those of us who didn't complete the deed either rushed through the content or are stupid.

[ararax2]

I think the simplest solution is that Saradan has the same quests, Andreg may have spotted the traps or bargests on the route, and Saradan can send you back for them, That way it is easier for people that do them on the way, but they can be done after it.

In the future, I think the solution is that there should be 2 quests for a quest line fo this type.

Quest 1: Go with NPC (Orcahme or Andreg) to scout the path and help him in (Annuminas or Gravenwood). These would be the optional quests.
Quest 2: Do Quest X, Y, X with NPC (Orcahme or Andreg) at set locations (The auto quests in Annuminas, and the talk to Saradan quests in Gravenwood). Then Turn in.


This way, all the optional quests are tied in to a quest giver who can keep giving you the quest while you are still at less then 100% complete, but those who do not want to finish all of them can just cancel the optional quest line and pick it up later if they want.

[Eurik]

I really like the way this deed works, in theory. Quests that you can pick up and drop at any time you want on a whim or fail over and over until you finally beat it lack a real risk of loss. They also lack a sense that my actions impact the world. It doesn't really matter what I do or how well I do it because even if I mess up and fail, I'll just try again. Of course, if the majority of quests didn't work like that everyone would ragequit by level 30. Still, the inclusion of some quests which can be permanently failed is a good thing. At least, I like it.

However, with this particular questline there is a seemingly obvious error. The apparent intention of the developers is that you can fail this quest if you do not pay enough attention.

Originally Posted by Berephon
There are only three discoverables, and the quest clearly indicates you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest.

The quest does not clearly indicate that you cannot complete the discoverables after completing the main quest because the quest does not indicate the existence of undiscovered discoverables. It only indicates that you will not be able to complete the quests you currently have after completing the main quest. If you were not offered any of the quests, you would be unaware that you missed them. Reading the deed associated with the quests is also misleading. In fact, it could be argued that the deed clearly indicates that there are multiple quest givers associated with it.

Add to this the numerous reports that even with foreknowledge of the quests efforts to trigger them can be unsuccessful and it seems more and more like a fix is in order. Hopefully one that would help to improve on future quests and deeds that can be failed permanently.

But a developer clearly stated there isn't going to be a fix. So maybe it's not supposed to be something you can control. Maybe the entire point behind this deed is that it is all a matter of luck.

[Bobby_Crocker]

This is an unfortunate behavior that pops up often on MMO message boards. During a discussion a poster will declare in essence : " I see things The One And True Way™. If you don’t agree, not only are you wrong, but you’re stupid and probably have poor hygiene as well. And I don't care that so many other people clearly (as well as articulately and politely) disagree, that just means I'm the only sane person in the thread. "

To re-print an example I used in the other (now apparently closed) thread, I’m going to put up a list of 5 words. One of them does not fit with the others. You need to identify which of the 5 doesn’t fit and why :

Crate
Doggerel
Catapult
Abscess
Coworker

The correct answer : “abscess”. Reason being : the other words contain the names of animals in them, abscess does not. Ah, but here’s the tricky bit – when this very question came up on a test I was taking back in the Dark Ages when I was still in school, I chose “doggerel”. Reason being : doggerel is an adjective, all the others are nouns.

When I took that test I was marked wrong by the machine because it said I hadn’t properly identified THE pattern. Obvious problem being, I had in fact identified A pattern, just not the one the scoring program said was The One And True Way™ to answer the question.

When such a large number of players are posting that they had problems with the quest line due to the way the information was presented, it’s sadly unsurprising that a single player would take such a cavalier attitude and declare that all these other people must not only be wrong, but not even paying attention in the first place.

It’s quite simply appalling that the dev who scripted the quest line would do the same.

[Korrigan]

This is an unfortunate behavior that pops up often on MMO message boards. During a discussion a poster will declare in essence : " I see things The One And True Way™.

Not meaning that's what is happening here, but the reverse behavior is also happening more often than never... one person is presenting an undeniable fact, and another person will pretend it's opinion and disagree even if it's something you basically can't disagree with. Dismissing facts by pretending it's only opinions is at least as common as pretending opinions are facts. Some people just enjoy pretending "1+1=2" is false, just for the sake of disagreeing, or because agreeing would mean admitting they are wrong and would not fit their "agenda".

But this is totally off topic... so I'll stop here on those philosophical thoughts

[Bobby_Crocker]

Not meaning that's what is happening here, but the reverse behavior is also happening more often than never... one person is presenting an undeniable fact, and another person will pretend it's opinion and disagree even if it's something you basically can't disagree with. Dismissing facts by pretending it's only opinions is at least as common as pretending opinions are facts. Some people just enjoy pretending "1+1=2" is false, just for the sake of disagreeing, or because agreeing would mean admitting they are wrong and would not fit their "agenda".

But this is totally off topic... so I'll stop here on those philosophical thoughts

Wasn’t it the game show Jeopardy where the question was ‘what does the .com in a domain name mean?’, someone answered incorrectly that it was short for ‘computer’, but they scored the person correct anyway because lots of other people thought it was the right answer too, facts notwithstanding?

Reality by popular consensus sounds fun. If I can just get enough people to agree and argue that I’m married to Kate Beckinsale … mmm.

Oh well,

</tangent>

[Korrigan]

Reality by popular consensus sounds fun. If I can just get enough people to agree and argue that I’m married to Kate Beckinsale … mmm.

Facts have nothing to do with "popular consensus", but that's for proving what I was saying right. An opinion is not true just because 10 people have the same. Facts go beyond opinions.
Oh, and about Kate, someone would just ask Kate, and you'd be screwed. And that would be an undeniable fact

[coot]

Finally...a rewarding experience for those of us who like to actually pay attention to the game, read the quest text, and savor the plot lines....

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

You started off ok but your defense of all things Turbine is getting tiresome. So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

I read almost everything unless I'm grouped or I've played too long and my eyes are just too tired, regardless I want folks to be able to do everything they want to. I'm not a raider in this game but I don't begrudge raids. (I just don't like crafting or legendaries as part of exclusive raid loot since they have there own extensive leveling systems.) I read the lore, but don't mind if others dont.

[Korrigan]

So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

Do you think someone should be locked from some content just because they don't raid?

You will always be locked out of a part of the game if you don't like the activity involved with that part. Non-raiders are locked out of raid content and will most likely never see it entirely (except entering the instance and dying on the first pull, ofc), so why wouldn't non-readers not be locked out of some content too?

I see you talk about it in the rest of your post, but you don't really address it.

I also softened my opinion on this a bit, but there are already solutions in game... you can follow another person doing the quest and complete yours too. Community, you know. Otherwise, the best solution would be that the initial quest giver keeps on giving you the "whistle" even after you turned in.

[Hurin]

You started off ok but your defense of all things Turbine is getting tiresome. So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

I read almost everything unless I'm grouped or I've played too long and my eyes are just too tired, regardless I want folks to be able to do everything they want to. I'm not a raider in this game but I don't begrudge raids. (I just don't like crafting or legendaries as part of exclusive raid loot since they have there own extensive leveling systems.) I read the lore, but don't mind if others dont.

Don't be too hard on him. That was just his initial take. I think he's come around in more recent posts.

[whheydt]

You started off ok but your defense of all things Turbine is getting tiresome. So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

I read almost everything unless I'm grouped or I've played too long and my eyes are just too tired, regardless I want folks to be able to do everything they want to. I'm not a raider in this game but I don't begrudge raids. (I just don't like crafting or legendaries as part of exclusive raid loot since they have there own extensive leveling systems.) I read the lore, but don't mind if others dont.

If you read my other posts in this thread, you may discover that opinions can be changed.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[whheydt]

Some people just enjoy pretending "1+1=2" is false...

But! But! 1+1=10.

Oh, wait... You aren't using binary, are you?

(Actually...good post. The lines between fact and opinion get blurrier and blurrier the longer some of these threads go on.)

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[PackOfIdiots]

Crate
Doggerel
Catapult
Abscess
Coworker

The correct answer : “abscess”. Reason being : the other words contain the names of animals in them, abscess does not. Ah, but here’s the tricky bit – when this very question came up on a test I was taking back in the Dark Ages when I was still in school, I chose “doggerel”. Reason being : doggerel is an adjective, all the others are nouns.

Crate (Noun/Verb)
Doggerel (Noun/Adjective)
Catapult (Noun/Verb)
Abscess (Noun, sometimes considered verb)
Coworker (Noun)

Your reasoning is less solid than the answer considered correct. Part of the intent of this sort of question isn't just to find any pattern, but to find the "best" pattern. I could also suggest that crate doesn't belong, because it's so much shorter than the other words, or because it ends in a vowel, but that would be a weak pattern as well. You're looking for what's particularly unusual in this collection of words.

[Korrigan]

But! But! 1+1=10.

Oh, wait... You aren't using binary, are you?

Nice one, well done
You also nicely illustrate my "even if I'm wrong, I can be right" argument though

- another "old fart" programmer here.

[Hurin]

Though, actually what seems to have happened in the last page or two in this thread is that someone who fancies him/herself a highly intelligent person has dropped in to thoroughly embarrass him/herself by assuming (and repeatedly declaring) that everyone else is "beyond stupid" while ironically exposing that it is he/she that doesn't truly understand the fundamental issue.

A good tip: If it seems like everyone around you is inexplicably stupid or crazy, maybe it's time to question your own assumptions and re-check your facts/analysis before getting up on your soapbox and declaring everyone else to be morons.

For those too sane/reasonable to read the overly long posts above: We've been told (at great length and in no uncertain terms) that we are all idiots for thinking we could turn in quests to Andreg after we had dismissed him since he warns us that he is disappearing and underway quests will be cancelled. But, of course, this is a straw man since nobody actually expects to be able to do so. Rather, the issue is clearly (as expressed very clearly time and time again) that Andreg is likely to be dismissed and disappear forever before many players even have a reasonable chance of knowing that there were quests that they never saw and that he never even offered to the player. At that time with no prior knowledge or outside information, a player has no reasonable/reliable indication that they have missed any quests and so simply allows Andreg to be dismissed. Which, unbeknownst to the player at that time, leaves the deed in a non-completable state for reasons that don't seem intuitive or reasonable to the player once they eventually realize that the left-over quests will not be bestowed by others.

To the person repeatedly calling everyone else stupid while clearly demonstrating that they are misunderstanding the issue. . . you might want to consider questioning your own assumptions in the future and spend more time trying to understand opposing perspectives prior to declaring everyone else to be "beyond stupid." When you spend most of your time looking for evidence of other people's stupidity (and your own perceived superiority) rather than trying to understand their position more clearly, you only set yourself up for embarrassment.

Or to put it another way, you should really be more careful to make sure you understand things properly before so stridently castigating the intelligence of others.

--H

[Korrigan]

Supposing that the "majority" is always right is also... wrong... but I said nothing, I'm not even here anymore *makes Jedi mind trick gesture with the hand*

[Gripn]

Those who claim that there's nothing with the quest wrongly assume that those of us who failed to complete the quest either rushed through the quest or are too stupid to follow clear instructions.

To me, the heart of the matter is that the warning message reads, "Advancing this quest will no longer allow you to summon Andreg and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway", when it should have read something like, "You have not yet completed all the quests that can be bestowed by Andreg. Advancing this quest will prevent him from bestowing further quests upon you, and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway".

[ararax2]

Crate (Noun/Verb)
Doggerel (Noun/Adjective)
Catapult (Noun/Verb)
Abscess (Noun, sometimes considered verb)
Coworker (Noun)

Your reasoning is less solid than the answer considered correct. Part of the intent of this sort of question isn't just to find any pattern, but to find the "best" pattern. I could also suggest that crate doesn't belong, because it's so much shorter than the other words, or because it ends in a vowel, but that would be a weak pattern as well. You're looking for what's particularly unusual in this collection of words.

Well specifically only Doggerel is not a physical object.

The animal name thing is specifically weak, since Doggerel also is the only word not containing the letter C, Catapult is the only word not containing an E, Crate is the only word that does not have a repeat letter. Crate is also the only 1 syllable word.

[GregJL]

This is an unfortunate behavior that pops up often on MMO message boards. During a discussion a poster will declare in essence : " I see things The One And True Way™. If you don’t agree, not only are you wrong, but you’re stupid and probably have poor hygiene as well. And I don't care that so many other people clearly (as well as articulately and politely) disagree, that just means I'm the only sane person in the thread. "

To re-print an example I used in the other (now apparently closed) thread, I’m going to put up a list of 5 words. One of them does not fit with the others. You need to identify which of the 5 doesn’t fit and why :

Crate
Doggerel
Catapult
Abscess
Coworker

The correct answer : “abscess”. Reason being : the other words contain the names of animals in them, abscess does not. Ah, but here’s the tricky bit – when this very question came up on a test I was taking back in the Dark Ages when I was still in school, I chose “doggerel”. Reason being : doggerel is an adjective, all the others are nouns.

When I took that test I was marked wrong by the machine because it said I hadn’t properly identified THE pattern. Obvious problem being, I had in fact identified A pattern, just not the one the scoring program said was The One And True Way™ to answer the question.

Well, except for the FACT that doggerel is also a noun. Just because your most normal use of it is as an adjective does not change the fact that it is a noun also.

[PackOfIdiots]

@ararax2

That gets back to understanding what makes a pattern the best pattern. You're looking for things that are unlikely to happen by chance in any set of words, but rather indicate a designed list. Things dealing with letter count or simple presence are weak. That class of pattern will emerge in any list. I'd also argue that 1) doggerel can be a physical object, although it need not be and 2) that is still less unusual than the pattern regarded as correct on the test. It is, however, a better pattern than that found by the original poster. Part of taking tests is understanding the intent of the test designers.

[Hurin]

This derail is priceless/classic.