What is new in the store, armors?????

[WickedWitch99]

Good thing that, as i broke out some saddle's and got my biscuit's and gravy eatin' britche's on today. I intend to ride me some ostrich's, and i kinda like you, and wouldnt really want to do that to ya

Oo

Trying to derail the thread now? How shocking!

[Zombielord]

We have to reden in denglisch, damit all community leute us understanden.
All was we schreiben, must in beiden Languages integreted werden.
So, wenn you not verstehst anything, then you know wie I me feel.

o.O

I liebe this Moderation. It führt us near together.
Hellau, to the Amerikanischer Dream

offtopic ende.

/facepalm

Wäre fast vom Stuhl gefallen vor lachen .. Echt Genial

**

So: the idea behind this was that there are too few armour pieces in the AH for the new guys?

This is actually true for the less populated server, but if you really wanna help the new players put the ingredient bags for the lower tiers on sale forever (it's nearly impossible if you're a tailor and *always* want to have your own critted armour ready when you level up) ...

or just merge some of the servers already!


I don't like the idea where this is going:

Since we now got marks and medallions instead of billions of different marks, it has become a lot harder to barter for armour. Four medallions from one solo skirmish isn't really much if the armour piece you want costs eight times that much ... and then you've only got piece from the whole set.
Medallions in the lotterie, like helegrod marks way back then? No sign of that

Just hope that one day I wont wake up in a game, where you have to buy store armour first if you want to run the raid/instance whatever in order to get the newest gear.

I hope I'll never see "need dps, must have at least 12k life and store armour" in glff.

[Abiyah]

Please use this thread for your feedback on the new store armor. All other threads will be consolidated into this one. For those asking why these threads have been moved here, it is very simple. You are discussing store items and providing store feedback. This is the store feedback forum.

Also, let's try to keep this civil. Name calling, insults, and similar comments whether directed at other players or Turbine staff are direct violations of the community guidelines. You're free to discuss the issue, but you must abide by the guidelines the same as with any other thread on these forums.

Feedback, comments, and yes even criticisms are welcome, but please do so in an appropriate manner.

So, is this stuff hitting home? Is that why multiple threads were merged into one? Hopefully (and that's not an easy word to use here anymore) it's so someone higher up the chain has one thread of complaints to read come Tuesday. Hopefully it's NOT to sweep it all under the rug. Make the right call.

[Dhrormr]

I've a question of my own, Sapience, since we dragged you into the forums on a Saturday...

When this news first broke yesterday (I heard the yelling and screaming all the way over on the Diablo III forums), you said that one reason for this is because some feedback indicated there was a lack of crafted armor in the AH.

Wouldn't it have been a better move to offer some sort of incentive to crafters in the store? Ingredient packs, crit items, or so on? I believe someone suggested this very thing in this thread or another on the same subject. Crafting would pick up, crafted armors would appear in the AH, the LOTRO economy would benefit. What am I missing here?

I heartily agree, you can make provision to bolster craft-kinship or make crafters more proeminent, help them establish their trade, run a shop or whatever.
But please NO, no more Lotro Store s... about it ! This is NOT the answer !
Who would buy stuff with TP at the store just to craft low or mid-level gears and sell it ? Plain nonsense

Give the players, the kinship and the community tools and means to run a real economy in Lotro, we will do the rest
Some ideas amongst others :

Store as an extension to Kinship housing, so crafters kinship could make and sell their goods in their stores.
Being able to get room beside, or in place, of established vendors in towns or places (Thorin's Halls, Bree, Grand'Cave, Celondim, Ost Guruth just to name a few).
Allow sellers to get more slots to sell and longer selling time.
A board so buyers can put a request for an item and crafters can answer.

You could even create some trade caravans Skirmish so fighters can be part of Outpost resupply

Lots of idea possible but please use your imagination and move in the right direction, one that fosters the game through the players instead of making the Lotro Store grow until it kills the game.
This kind of move make me think that this whole Lotro store is a bad think while I was quite positive with the choice in play style it could bring (F2P and buying extensions or monthly fee).

I hope it is now clear that this is a *BAD* move and that you will be able to prove that you really listen to your core community of players.
Lotro is apart of others so please keep it this way, it has made your success, just look at the positive feedback from people discovering the game, the old content and the disgruntling about what was done recently ! People wanting to play a "pay to get stuffed" game just can move to Wow or whatever Facebook or mobile game.

[bowseer]

Thanks patience for replying in this thread. Cant be fun for you right now. But i hope you give a sign to the people who makes this sad mistake live, players dont like it.

No, it already is pay to win. If you go back and listen to the seminar that Fernando Paiz gave at one of the gaming conventions last year on the FTP model you'll see this has been in the cards all along. He even goes so far as to explain that companies who use microtransactions can push players well past their comfortable limits, really anger them and they still won't leave. He doesn't seem to understand that sure, you will still make money, but you lose the trust and respect of the fanbase in the process. But I guess Turbine doesn't care about making a good game anymore - its about milking the players for all they can, even if they are skewing the odds to favor people who use the store (pvp especially is being affected by this.)

This is really intresting reading. Small steps every time. dangerous.

[SabrielofLorien]

EASY there Tiger! back away from the ledge! Back away from the ledge! Beep beep beep!

I think it smells rotten too but I guess not having money of that magnitude invested makes me a little less disgusted? I also haven't been playing that long and only got introduced to the game by my hubby, father (lifetime sub!), sister and sister's friend. Personally-not surprised in the least. As you say - it is a business. They can't say they didn't lie though. Everything sounds like an excuse and wow do I hate excuses.

Seriously though - don't let them get you too upset. Not worth it. The stress I mean. We are all on your side! By we I mean the gamers. Trust fall!

Topic Aside:
Watch out "THEY" are watching AND reading. I know. They don't like that word. Iz Gotz Az Ticketz.

On Topic:
The only good thing is that THEY ARE reading this thread.
If they thought they could bury this on the back pages over a weekend... well... That's what you do if you want no one to notice. Announce on a Friday. An old marketing trick to avoid scrutiny and opposition.

[Thorsvin]

I'm glad they are only selling low level gear in the lotro store and not any endgame* stuff.

*Does not include PvMP skills for monster players, relics, legendary titles, legendary legacies, greater scroll of empowerment equivalents, greater scroll of delving equivalents, destiny point buff equivalents, stat tomes or store potions which stack with in-game potions

[silverblade5445]

-------------------------------------------

The "First Principle"
First, I need to create a bit of "short-hand." To my mind, the "first principle" at play here has always been that advancing your character and gaining stats/skills/ability/resilience/power should be obtained through playing the game. But, if Turbine's bottom line requires that this principle be violated and that they sell such things (in addition to all the profitable fluff/cosmetics) the nature of the game as a game should at least require them to make those same character enhancements available through gameplay.

As long as they're not required to complete content, they don't cross a line.
This is an argument of convenience for those who only play the game in a certain way. It's fine that they aren't affected personally. More power to them (for TP of course!). But it willfully misses the point. A game where advancement is earned not through playing the game but by laying down cash is no longer a game in the eyes of a great many people. Nobody can seriously say that the stat tomes --especially as store exclusives aren't a violation of that principle. So they invent this arbitrary gauge by which they measure how badly the principle is being violated for their own personal use, and then apply that standard across the board to everyone. But, alas, the fact remains that the principle is being violated.

It reminds me of that old story about Churchill. At a fancy meal he playfully asks the lady seated next to him: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one million pounds?" The lady gives it some thought and then replies: "Well, sir, I believe I would." So Churchill then says: "My dear lady, would you sleep with me for one hundred pounds?" The lady, aghast, replies: "Mr. Prime Minister! Do you think me a prostitute!?!" And Churchill replies: "We have already established that you are, my dear lady. Now we are merely haggling over price."

Once you say: "Yes, they are selling advancement in the store, but it's not required, so it's okay". . . you've already conceded violation of the first principle. Now you're just establishing your own personal threshold for how far you're willing to have first principles violated.

And, of course, via reductio ad absurdum, we could argue that Turbine could add "Swords of Instant Death to Anything in the Game" exclusively to the store and as long as they still allowed us to complete content without it, by the logic of those making the counter-argument above, such a store exclusive would be just fine. But, of course, it wouldn't be.

Excellent example and explanation there.... +rep indeed

[RedlineJunkie]

Similar situation in DDO as well. I seem to remember when the store was first released in DDO you could buy +1 or +2 basic weapons. No big deal, most of the community said. Nobody would buy them, they are pretty common drops and you'll outlevel them eventually anyways.

I just logged into DDO for the first time in many months and looked at the store. Now you can get a +3 flaming burst longsword (275TP) or a +5 greataxe (350TP). It's a slippery slope, and I imagine eventually we'll see armour or even weapons in the LOTRO store that are at least on par with level 75 crafted stuff.

[GV-Tanith]

Thanks patience for replying in this thread. Cant be fun for you right now. But i hope you give a sign to the people who makes this sad mistake live, players dont like it.

Patience has been gone from LOTRO for quite a while, now. That's Sapience you're talking to, though to judge from the hasty thread-merging I don't expect he's feeling particularly patient right now.

The way this whole thing is being introduced is well...fishy. It was announced toward the end of the workday on Friday, we have a three-day (for many) weekend where the people who likely made this decision are off, and Sapience and the other forum mods are left holding the bag...and the bag is fully of rightfully irate players.

Bad, Turbine. Bad, bad, bad.

[Bryos]

Be sure to vote at this poll too.


http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...-in-the-store/

[darkannex]

Less inclination to play this game. (and I have a lifetime ‘free’ account!). I already feel complete apathy towards the last expansion – and have yet to hit level cap.

I don’t care that players buy such gear – I care that Turbine is intent on throwing the cash shop at every aspect of the game. It’s like their answer to everything now.

Mounts ? Cash shop exclusive count (like 7 now?) With the exception of holiday mounts…when did they last release an in game mount? It used to be tied to reputation. Now it’s just money and festival.

Crafting items? Cash shop bundles.

Cosmetics? I have to hand it to them, last expac they really released some nice looking gear. Still – they heavily favor store exclusives to get the best looking stuff.

Stat tomes, weapon tomes…. the list goes on. It seems like they’ve given up on trying to make a more immersive and better game, and just throw the cash shop out to people who don’t like things as they are. Rather than fix the game aspects people find bad (I hate the legendary system), they just heave the cash shop at it.

I really feel like I’m playing a Facebook game at this point.

*goes back to single player RPGs*

[Celebria]

Yeah, like crafters need yet another hit. LOL

Somehow all this doesn't surprise me as I've been feeling that since F2P, the new, numbers-heavy masses are where the money is for this game, therefore the lion's share of the work done and money spent will be to cater to this crowd. The new armor in the store is merely a reflection.

I really don't think subscribers and lifetimers-left-over are where Turbine sees its money coming from. I certainly don't spend as much money in the store as the vast majority of F2Pers in my kin that buy everything from cosmetics to gold caps to quest packs. Therefore, I think the game is geared toward them now.

F2P and premium are in. Subs and lifetime seemed to be out. LOL

Someone in glff, I think it was, likened lifetimers to welfare users that put an unwanted load on their governments. I've often wondered if that's how Turbine sees them in the new LOTRO Store F2P economy.

[Invincible12]

Someone in glff, I think it was, likened lifetimers to welfare users that put an unwanted load on their governments. I've often wondered if that's how Turbine sees them in the new LOTRO Store F2P economy.

Its ironic because I look at the Lifetimers as the early Investors that paid in a 2 year up front on the gamble that this 'stock' would pay off. That gave Turbine a HUGE pile of cash up front to put right back into Development. Now, these Investors (many of whom still spend more in the store monthly than their Subs would have been worth) are the welfare class.

[OOWS]

Players Will Fight To The Death
Players will fight to the death to prevent a pay-to-win game. There is probably nothing that players feel more passionate about than preventing this happening in LOTRO. It's a fundamental principle that Turbine cannot compromise and expect to survive. Surely, Turbine, you must understand this.

Developers, Stand Up For Your Game
If you are a Turbine developer, and you don't like where the management is taking the game, stand up for LOTRO and let yourself be heard. Fight for what you believe in. You have a voice that carries weight and should be heard.

Setting A Bad Precedent
This sets a precedent that Turbine is willing to sell pay-to-win items in the store. It does not matter what level the items are, the fact is that you can gain an advantage through a store purchase rather than in-game. Once the precedent has been set, there is no limit as to what Turbine will sell.

Lost Your Credibility
In the past, Turbine promised that the store would not sell items like these. That promise has been broken. You have lost the trust of the player base, maybe forever. How are we to trust somebody that breaks their word?

You Owe Us An Explanation
In real life, whether it is personal or business, if you break your word, you owe others an explanation. You broke your word about the store, and now you owe the players an explanation. You broke your own policy and did it in the worst possible way by just listing these items without any communication or explanation. We the players would like to know where the store is headed.

Do The Right Thing
Own up to your mistake, and reverse your decision. That is the wisest thing you can do. Players would even respect such a decision. It takes courage to admit when you are wrong.

[Arachnella]

No, it already is pay to win. If you go back and listen to the seminar that Fernando Paiz gave at one of the gaming conventions last year on the FTP model you'll see this has been in the cards all along. He even goes so far as to explain that companies who use microtransactions can push players well past their comfortable limits, really anger them and they still won't leave. He doesn't seem to understand that sure, you will still make money, but you lose the trust and respect of the fanbase in the process.

Trust and respect apart (and a cynic in me says that the Powers That Be don't care about them as much as about their quarterly revenues), Fernando Paiz also doesn't seem to understand that "won't leave" does not equate to "will pay".

The recent changes in the game and store help to breed a new attitude towards the game: playing without paying. Players who will stay, for whatever reasons, but will not be spending anything because they have been angered before. This won't get clear or obvious very quickly, but the flow of income will be reduced, and it will be much lower than it might be, without these decisions.

I will be playing for some time yet, I still like the game and I have many fond memories of it. I may buy the next expansion, or I may not -- depends on what we shall hear from the developers in the next months. But buying something extra and spending money beyond the expansion, after all these small betrayals and going back on your word? FORGET IT.

By adding the unpopular things they undermine their long term sustainability. That's what they don't seem to understand indeed.

There is of course one more explanation: they understand very, very well that they undermine their sustainability, and what we see now is the hectic attempts to squeeze out as much from the game as possible before it goes down or gets shut down.

[Cambruin]

I'm one of those /wave.

had a great time in the past and am still having fun, but Turbine's direction is not one I'm willing to fund. I'm Premium, made use of the bonus store points to buy all the content packs I need and that's it. Been premium for oooh... around 6 or so months and no intention of ever going VIP again.

[Crell_1]

Also, I have to wonder... how is it that relics for LI's being sold in the store didn't render this kind of uproar, but a couple of dinky chestpieces did? Did those relics not have stats attached to them? What about the Finesse scrolls? What about the various buffs and boosts? Where was this level of outrage then?

#1 Relics. Turbine never promised not to sell it. And we did whine about the 'store exclusive' relics, especially given some players felt they were BETTER than the other community voted relics.

#2.The finesse scrolls are laughable, but generally, because by that point, players all pretty much had the gear they needed anyway.
#3. 'Various buffs and boosts'. Everytime we got one that wasn't a DP equivalent or stacked on top of one, we whined.

And for something with a similar level of feedback

Lootboxes. Utterly Deplorable.

[Celebria]

I do remember those freak-outs! LOL I was part of most of them. Hehe.

I'm disappointed but not surprised. Can't wait for the eventual full armor sets with set bonuses and stats combinations you can't get anywhere else in the game.

I'm buying popcorn for the drama in economy sizes.

[Hurin]

Also, I have to wonder... how is it that relics for LI's being sold in the store didn't render this kind of uproar, but a couple of dinky chestpieces did? Did those relics not have stats attached to them?

You obviously weren't paying attention.

Page after page about the relics begin on page 18 here. Accompanied by the same rationalizations and excuses. Of course, the thread was eventually locked because it was "going around in circles". . . so it's not all that surprising that you missed it. Otherwise, it would probably still be going. And with each development like this, it would likely "catch fire" again.

You asked.

--H

[Martigan]

The thing about this ofc is that it will continue. There is nothing short of a significant exodus now that will reverse the way the store is developing. Armour, jewels, weapons, probably even levelling its all coming. They have no intention of stopping.

I realised several weeks ago that many of the the things we hope for are probably not going to happen.

The thrust of the end-game is instance clusters and micro-transactions - that's it. The rest will be asides. Epic story, open world, festivals, pvp will get developed but not as significantly as in the past.

The game itself is now the vehicle for the micro-transactions. More will get squeezed into the store. The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around. They will give us just enough game to keep the store open and no more. They will sugar-coat it with PR speak.

Stop what you are doing and listen a second. Can you hear that drip? It's the slow drip drip from the store. whats that tapping? Its the slow chipping away of content. The goblins are at work and not even frodo can stop them this time.

So my feedback is no I don't agree with the idea of stat armour etc in the store. I think it will alienate a significant number of Turbines customers and will ultimately be bad for their reputation.

Thanks

[Lothirieth]

This sets a precedent that Turbine is willing to sell pay-to-win items in the store.

Turbine was already selling pay-to-win items in the store: exclusive t7 stat tomes (and to be honest all the stat tomes. The drop rate is laughable. I think I've seen two tomes drop since they came out), relic removal scrolls, relics, pots that share separate CD from game pots... the list goes on. This is just the first time we can factually say that they lied to us.

[Celebria]

The phrase "convenience not advantage" reminds me of "depends on what the definition of 'is' is"...

[StavroMuellerBeta]

I hate this expression because it is based on assumptions and extrapolations that at some 'inevitable' point along the line, the 'worst case scenario' becomes true.

Years ago, when Turbine put stat tomes in the store, the inevitable conclusion some of us came to was gear in the store. Many people came to Turbine's defense and said that the stat tomes are minor, and that gear would NEVER be in the store.

The fact that this thread even exists is proof that the inevitable conclusion came true, at least in part.

So far, there have been dozens of "Turbine would never do this" posts just like yours that have all been proven wrong by Turbine.

I'm not telling you to stop thinking what you do, because that's your choice, but those of us who have seen the progression of the store know for a fact that they aren't going to suddenly go back to horses and cosmetic cloaks.

If these armors sell, there will be a "demand" for a higher tier, and Turbine will fulfill that. Then the next tier, all the way up to level cap. And what then? Well, there are legitimately a significant number of posts supporting raid armor in the store, so why not? When that day comes, the defenders will come out of the woodwork to claim that the raid armor is only a few points above the non-raid store armor, and Turbine will point to the hundreds of posts supporting store-bought raid armor.

If we don't draw the line here, where do we draw it? Do we draw the line at level 30 gear that's roughly equivalent to the level 40 Fem set? Do we draw the line at level 65 gear with stats equivalent to level 75 guild-crafted? Do we draw the line at level 75 gear with an armor value only a few points less than the teal Orthanc set? Where does it end?

My line is right here. right now.

Turbine said they would put no gear with stats in the store.
Turbine put gear with stats in the store.

At what point can anyone argue that this is acceptable? Nobody is asking Turbine to sit behind unreasonable boundaries set by a subset of forum posters, I'm only asking Turbine to stop telling us one thing and giving us another.

[Ayrolen]

Cut and dry, if it disgusts you so much, you don't like it that much, then don't buy it.

And that's what it really comes down to. Put your money where your mouth is. Every single time something gets added to the store that gets deemed as Pay2Win, we end up with a 50 page thread of teeth-gnashing. But I have to wonder how many of the people who scream about how awful it is, end up buying the very things they scream and wail about because they're too good to pass up?

And like I've mentioned in several other posts, if you don't want others to buy this gear in the store, fill up the AH with gear that you do want them to buy. It doesn't necessarily change that the gear is in the store in the first place, but if sales aren't good in the store, perhaps they'll realize it was a mistake.