What is new in the store, armors?????

[BrittainTheCommie]

but thats remembers me, how many feedbacks was send about pvmp.. but wait.. erm... still wait..yess .. nothing or soon...

I sometimes wonder if the lack of interest in PvMP has been to our overall benefit. While it's frustrating, watching Turbine ABSOLUTELY DESTROY PvE, questing, character progression, grouping, raiding, crafting, etc., makes me think that perhaps we're better off.

Seriously. Turbine/WB has really destroyed almost everything that was enjoyable about LoTRO.

[NecrosIX]

Barely a month after the introduction of gamble boxes, Turbine releases stat armour in the store. Why do I feel like a guinea pig in an experiment to see how many buttons a MMO company can push before a customer decides enough is enough. At this rate I will never be comfortable spending real life money in this game knowing full well that I will hate myself for being played a fool when the inevitable time comes and my limit is reached. I don't know how VIPs put up these items though. If even one of these items gets so much as a mention by a dev in the MMO where I pay to play, they would have a bloody revolt on their hands.

[BrittainTheCommie]

First, define pay to win.

Second, what has been added to the store that could be seen as 'pay to win' in the general definition.

If you define pay to win as adding items that create a gap between what players can get in-game and what can be purchased, skewing that the purchased items are better, then no...Turbine hasn't done that.

Of course, I'm going to wait for those few people to chime in about how I'm defending Turbine and you should ignore what I say.

Please provide recent screenshots of your lvl 75s, please. You can blank out the name, I don't mind. Gear/Stats/Deeds completed would help as well.

I'm just pretty confident that you spend far more time trolling the forums than actually playing the game. And by trolling, I mean you have a financial or personal interest in Turbine operations. I gather that from the amount that you let slip that would, by most company standards, be considered insider information or information passed on by a reliable source, not obtainable by a general player.

[Azshakh]

I'm starting to loose my trust in you, Turbine!
Store armour is a big NONO!

Focus on making a high quality game instead - you are continuously loosing long-time players by your recent updates and choices. Get back to the core.....

[SabrielofLorien]

20,00 views as of the time of this post... a few are watching and reading even Turbine. We know that they are watching and reading.

Now for their next rabbit - are you ready? An old old marketing trick (of which this is just one part) is about to take place on the Update on Tuesday. Will you be ready for them?

Part 1 - under way at this time. Release really awful and unpleasant news on a Friday AND before a long weekend.

This is been a great strategy for anyone needing to inform people about something they know will not be happily received and hoping they will not notice. Some of us did however notice. The merging of 4+ threads into one, helps control who notices but so far 20,000 views have been noted. Not exactly under the radar as they had hoped for.

They have not yet deleted or closed this thread but they will. As soon as they think it's "safe". I would guess by the end of next week (1/20/2012) or thereabouts this thread will die. No trace will be left for anyone to come to and see what was said or not said.

Part 2 - coming on Tuesday. Distraction. Distract people with something else. Give them something other to think or write about. Anything except the Bad News.

Distraction will take place because the "Update" has "a lot of good stuff in it". Fixes and changes and oh all sorts of goodies are in the bag. There are sooo many goodies why bother worrying about all that bad stuff you saw in Part 1. The Turbine mods are already busy at hints and tips and tip offs about what will be available on Tuesday.

Surely by Tuesday we will have all forgotten the stat-armour and all the other past mis-directions. Surely we will be wowed that they have fixed a LOT! Turbine LOVES us don't we see that?

There is no randomness to these updates. There is no randomness to the timing of them. These have been in the works and planned for a long time now. None of this was done in 24 hours. It's all been On Hold and Waiting to be catapulted into the mix.

Well, the have tossed in the first volley. 20,000 reactions? No so terrible. Those that left for SWTOR were going to leave anyway. Those that stayed well they are certainly not bothered by Turbine's direction.

The next volley will come on Tuesday with the update. Turbine will sugar coat all the updates they have been hoarding and say "Come Play with the Us! Come buy at the Store! We LOVE you!"

I can't wait to buy my Ultra Raid Armour and my Ultra Uber LI Weapon and my Mega-Fast LM Mount (oooh an Eagle!) and my auto-leveled toon updates. I have 30,000 Turbine Points now (as of this post) and I expect I will have enough to buy anything I want from the Store if I should return.

I will be most interested if the Marketing Gurus will be correct. Tuesday is Distraction Day and all will be forgotten.

[deeman25845601]

What's next, powerleveling?

[KitCaboodle]

I said in another thread that I've gone from raving about LoTRO to my friends during SoA - to actively warning them against playing.

That's not how I want it to be but F2P was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. As soon as we had a store, I knew we'd wind up here - just as I know we'll wind up with raid gear equivalent armour/jewellery and weapons in the Store, maybe even gold. It's just a matter of time. Turbine have broken their word about what they would sell in the store and have misled customers over RoI (how they could pay for it & what they would get for purchasing it versus what they wouldn't if they didn't.)

I'm sorry but in any financial climate, treating customers like that is just asking for trouble. In a time when people are looking to save money and choosing their priorities, angering your customer base and destroying good will is foolhardy in the extreme.

Tonight when I was playing my Guardian, I asked myself why I was bothering. Why waste hours of my life working on a character in a game that I can see shutting down in the next few years if it carries on the way it looks like it's going? Why waste time filling out rep, deeds, etc. when I've worked for too many big companies to hope or believe they'll change tack?

They won't listen to us unless we suggest something that will make them even more money, now (OK, so if they listened to us on this it would save them money - because they wouldn't be driving away so many customers - but remember that these people only think as far ahead as the next quarter's performance review.) The only people who can change anything are the shareholders - so, unless you fancy writing to every major shareholder and explaining that the company they part own is destroying their investment, then I doubt there's much you can do. Feedback will be ignored, they will tell themselves that the customers will get over it.

Personally, I will be sad to see this game die but there are other games out there and so I'm not going to go Googling for names and addresses/e-mail addresses of high ranking executives at Turbine and Warner Brothers Entertainment, or of their key Shareholders. I'll just pootle around in the game until it becomes unplayable unless you spend money in the Store - because I'm not spending a single penny on the game after this. I take customer service very seriously - I also get infuriated by short-term business thinking that destroys otherwise viable companies and this situation pushes too many buttons for me to throw good money after bad.

I've been meaning to learn to paint, maybe I could go and do that instead?

[Hurin]

I wish the MMO industry would have taken this turn a decade ago. My early-mid thirties would have been so much more productive.

[SabrielofLorien]

What's next, powerleveling?

In the ages past of Early LOTRO there was power leveling. I think it happened sometime around year 1 but I might be off a bit there.

On a certain day we all logged in and our toons were 3 or 4 levels higher than the day before. I had so many new skills I had no idea how to use them.

Many of the starter areas were dumbed down because no one was left there to help any new players. Everyone was in Bree or Rivendell. Celondim was a ghost-NPC place.

I remember being blasted over and over again in Erid Luin at the Vinyards by that Gobbie Boss (ooh he's L5 I think). I couldn't toss BE fast enough to kill him. Took me about a week to get that quest done with the help of a tank. Now... just breeze in and move along.

And the Vicious Bears in Thrasi's Lodge area! We stood in line for those. I think we all needed 10 apiece and they had a low respawn rate. I don't think you even need Vicious Bears anymore.


Power Leveling isn't something new to the game.

[Abiyah]

What's next, powerleveling?

That stone they gave out for the ROI preorders? 25% xp gain to 65 = 14 free levels. Does that qualify?

[Khafar]

The addition of gear with stats for 95/450tp a piece is necessary why exactly?

I suspect they're trying to give free players more low-cost and appealing "on ramps" to spending some $$ on the game, because once they've spent a little bit, it's easier to get them to spend more. For players who level at normal (fast) speeds on quest content all the way up, the only real incentive I can see to spend any $$ on that gear is because you like the look (and want to use it in the cosmetic system for an extended range of levels).

And no, the argument that the AH is empty is not strong enough to justify going back on one's word.

First, what "word" would that be? I don't remember them ever stating that they'll never sell any armor (or weapons, or useful consumables, or stat boosts, or time shortcuts, etc) in the Store. In fact, IIRC, they shipped the F2P version of the game with some "starter packs" of stuff for newbies that included basic equipment. Somehow we survived the trauma, and we will here too.

Clearly, those things are not what they mean by "advantage". So what do they mean? I think it's probably close to "End-game gear, or other items which provide a Store-exclusive and significant bonus to elder play". Of course, it would be good if they'd just come out and say that instead of making us guess.

Khafar

[Abiyah]

First, what "word" would that be? I don't remember them ever stating that they'll never sell any armor (or weapons, or useful consumables, or stat boosts, or time shortcuts, etc) in the Store.

I think it'd be this word--

"I expressed the general player concern over whether the store will give the moneybags-player too much of a leg up over others. I was told that they're being careful not to offer any unbalancing buffs or items -- for example, Turbine decided from the start that the store would not sell gear with any stats attached."

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/07...-with-turbine/

And perhaps this one, too--

7. Will I still be able to play and enjoy the game without buying items from the LOTRO Store, or is that my only option for gaining weapons, armor, potions, and other goodies such as premium loot?

The purchase of items in the LOTRO Store is entirely optional. While items in the Store are designed to immediately enhance your in-game experience, premium loot and rare gear are the rewards of adventure and are only obtainable through gameplay.

http://www.lotro.com/betasignup/faq.html

[Ardineck]

The argument can no longer EVER be made that Turbine won't sell end game quality gear. Will it happen immediately? No, but neither will the decline and failure of this "experiment" they are trying. Draigoch gear isn't top of the line anymore - so is it fair game to be sold? What may eventually happen is reasonable to fear - that people will not accept you into a raid if you haven't bought the store gear (or be forced to grind it out) because it's not only already being done to some extent, we now have a more direct parallel. Will ALL people and kins make that ultimatum? No, and Turbine will say its not them, that such actions are as a result of the players, but that's like saying the kills in a gladiator match are the results of the combatants and not the people that put them in the ring, gave them the weapons and said fight it out.

To those that still say this isn't a big deal - its not the first time or the first incident. This is a PATTERN of actions with logical conclusions for us, the consumers of he products. There is a clear message that they don't care what we think that is being cloaked in the most sinister of ways - the lie that it is because they are listening to us and care about us. It is so plainly obvious. It's not hard to see and people denying it are refusing to admit it.

Lifetime subscriber loyalty (of which I could not take part) has been terminated. The chance they took has, in their eyes, been repayed. Subscribers before F2P and up to the day before the announcement were led on for no other purpose than to get their money. This was their first choice - to directly break a promise. Not rework an area to award better gear - which they don't need anyway. Not ask for players to address this in the communities themselves. Not avail themselves of dozens of other options. It is because this instance is only to set a new precedence - to break the seal and make the next lie easier to swallow.

[giniluv]

Late to post, but please know I read this and the thread about the coming update fixes.

I was elated when I started reading the update thread at the fixes coming. I even thought 'Self, maybe I can look past some things and play again'. Once I got pointed here it all the joy left.

This change to policy, though, reconfirmed for me that WB is using this game for nothing more than seeing how far they push the F2P model. They have gone as far as to break many promises made by Turbine without regard to the playerbase.

Yes, it is low level armour this time, but it sets precedent. If you doubt there will be maxed level gear, characters already leveled, tiered up LIs, etc... in the store at some point, you are kidding yourself.

I really had fun my first year or so here. Sad to see Tolkien's work being used in such a way.

[Vellem]

I think you have that wrong. If those arguing the slippery-slope are proven right (and they are), then their arguments weren't silly, they were prescient.

Anyone who took the time to think through the business model, MMO industry trends, a dash of human nature, and basic economics could see all of this (and more) coming. So much so that it wasn't ever really a slippery-slope argument. Rather, it's more a statement of fact in the face of folks just willfully pressing their hands to their ears and droning: "Nuh-uh, it'll be fine. Nuh-uh, it'll be fine."

And they'll keep doing that right up until Turbine is selling 1st Age symbols in the AH. And then some will even defend that too. Because it's easier than adjusting one's worldview or admitting they were wrong.

--H

I think this sums things up pretty well.

There are (and always will be) a section of players who have the mindset of "Well, I don't buy anything from the store so I don't care what they put in there. It doesn't affect me or my gameplay." and those people think we should all just think like they do and everything would be fine. In my opinion it is a selfish viewpoint to take. Turbine could start selling fully leveled and raid gear equipped characters and flying eagle mounts and they would still have that same mindset. They don't understand why people are upset and probably never will.

Anyway, I'm sure Turbine has a timeline of things to release in the store this year and will release those things as planned regardless of what happens in the forums. Remember, it is only January. They are just getting warmed up. We may as well be shouting into the wind at this point.

[Eartholloth]

The bottom line is the only way your gonna get Turbine to make significant changes to this game with content/store etc. is by a good portion of the player base not paying for subs/Tps. Right now it seems they are still raking in the cash. It dont matter how loyal you have been to this game. They are going to go with the player base that makes them the most money. People can come here & complain all they want but for the most part it wont matter. They might make some changes by the complaints but it wont be a massive change. From what I can see there are still plenty of people who still love this game & still will play it even whats going into the store.

[StavroMuellerBeta]

The bottom line is the only way your gonna get Turbine to make significant changes to this game with content/store etc. is by a good portion of the player base not paying for subs/Tps.

The last time I gave Turbine any money is when I bought the Adventurer's Pack to get Mirkwood. Three years later, I'm not seeing much improvement.

People can come here & complain all they want but for the most part it wont matter. They might make some changes by the complaints but it wont be a massive change.

Turbine might not listen to the complaints, but other customers will.

So far, I've seen quite a few people in this thread alone say that they're canceling because of this change. If everyone kept their complaints to themselves, as you seem to be implying we should have done, those players would have never seen this thread, and would still be paying regularly until they hear about the gear months later.

While our complaints may go ignored by Turbine, our complaints do serve a purpose.

[Eartholloth]

The last time I gave Turbine any money is when I bought the Adventurer's Pack to get Mirkwood. Three years later, I'm not seeing much improvement.

Turbine might not listen to the complaints, but other customers will.

So far, I've seen quite a few people in this thread alone say that they're canceling because of this change. If everyone kept their complaints to themselves, as you seem to be implying we should have done, those players would have never seen this thread, and would still be paying regularly until they hear about the gear months later.

While our complaints may go ignored by Turbine, our complaints do serve a purpose.

Um dont put words into my mouth. People can complain all they want, the only thing thats going to get through too Turbine & make a significant change is them losing money. As long as they keep the money coming in many of the complaints here they will not care about.

For example just look at the complaints to the lootboxes. Yeah it is announced there is a change to them come Tuesday but I am willing to bet the only change it will be is the bug fixed so you can destroy them. If there is any other change, I will be very surprised.

[giniluv]

Do not fool yourselves. Weeding out the long term loyal supporters (VIP/Lifetimers) is part of the plan.

They WANT new players with no clue as to the honorable way this game used to be. They want new blood, new CCs, and above all stupidy of those coming in.

The old guard is being tossed aside to rake in as much cash as they can before it all falls.

Lvl 20ish gear discarded in a few levels. Can't you see the plan? 30ish gear is next, then 40ish...

Turbine are just the puppets.

[jack4316]

what?????? whats next you going put up the best armor in the game for max lvls that once they have can blow creeps away in a heart beat??????? and i thought it was bad now with minis being turned into walking nuclear bombs. well this is the true beginning of the end for pvmp in this game.

[Chanah]

I'm still not exactly sure why this selling of gear bothers me so much as it does. Objectively it won't impact gameplay. And if I say 'it feels wrong', this is a weak argument.

The store never bothered me before. I never felt I needed anything from it to advance my characters. I felt the extra storage was a true convenience. As are some of the boosts. Crafting accelerators are actually very nice to get through some tiers.

Are those things really that different from low level gear? Are they really?

Again, objectively they are not.

Is it the broken promise, then? I don't know about that either. Things change. Markets changes. Companies must adapt or die. It's not realistic to expect a company to *never* break a promise. So I can sorta kinda live with that without getting up in arms about it.

So if I follow my rational side, this should be no problem whatsoever. There is nothing about the store bought level 20 gear that impacts my experience. My main is at 75, and I can craft anything I want for my alts. I will never *EVER* need that gear. And I don't really care if others buy it. It does not affect me at all.

But it bothers me.

I guess the reason it bothers me is that it is another step away from a 'clean' pay to play model.

..............

Again: objectively this all won't affect the gameplay. But it feels like unnecessary greed and that is upsetting to me.

How about this, then? Bree rep rewards lots of gear and weapons in the 20-30 level - the cape is superior to anything I can even craft for my melee toons, so they all wear that one until they replace it with an Evendim rep cape, and so on up the line. The Barrow Downs set is available. If you opt for the Lonelands, you get gear as quest rewards - and I've seen more purples drop in that area than any other, of the sort that are on par with crit-crafted stuff.

Go to Trestlebridge instead - and you get gear as a reward.

Not to mention all the crafters. Sometimes I post lower level stuff on the AH. Mostly I do ore/wood/hide processing in the lower level areas, and if I see somebody with really subpar gear or weapons, I make some new for them - just give it to them, no charge. I'm not the only one. And kins everywhere are happy to help, a lot even help non-members.

So Turbine's argument that this is being put in the store because of a lack of low-level gear is a lie. Unless, of course, they take all the gear out of the quest reward system, world drops, rep rewards, skirmish barterers, and crafting panels.

That may not be why it 'feels wrong' to you. But it's one of the many reasons it 'feels wrong' to me.

[giniluv]

This new way has nothing to do with Turbine's goals. It is completely on WB.

Unless you want to acount for the spineless way Turbine employees bend to their will.

Again, sad to see Tolkien's work be used for such base uses.

[EU_Meliana]

The real question is, how many of you will actually stop playing WHEN they add high end armour to the lotro store.

I say WHEN...because it's not a question of IF anymore. They make tons of cash with the morale/power pots, relics, LI upgrades, relic removals....and it's a business, they care only about their bottom line.

Will they make tons more cash by putting in raid gear to the store? Yes. Will you all stop playing? Unsure.

[giniluv]

Folks will continue then, buying it all, for a short time.

The once loved game long gone to a bunch of noobs with $ on someone's credit card.

Again I say, sad to see Tolkien's works come to see such things.

[LadyDena]

Will you all stop playing?

Turbine obviously prefers if the Lifers and those who have already bought 12 months of sub to stop play. So CLEARLY the best solution is not to stop playing, but to stop PAYING. Huge difference.