What is new in the store, armors?????

[SerendipityUK]

"Unless you want to acount for the spineless way Turbine employees bend to their will."

What's spineless about not wanting to lose your job?

[giniluv]

"Unless you want to acount for the spineless way Turbine employees bend to their will."

What's spineless about not wanting to lose your job?

Not standing up for one's beliefs.

[OOWS]

Given the overwhelming response to this thread, I would like to know from Turbine or Sapience:

1. If we can get an official response regarding the types of items that will be sold in the store, and if there is any limit to what you will sell?

2. Will you reverse your policy of selling gear with stats on it given that the vast majority of the community (based on this thread) is against it? If not, exactly what role does community feedback play in your decision process if you do not listen to the will of the majority?

[SerendipityUK]

"Despite my having three children to feed and a mortgage boss, I can't stand the way our customers are being ripped off, I quit!"
"Bye."

Later at the house.

"Honey I quit work today."
"What! Why? What happened?"
"They promised not to sell items with stats in the store a couple of years ago and now they've done it. I feel sick at the thought of the players getting lied to like that, I want no part of it."
"And the mortgage?"
"I'm sure I'll find something else around here in commuting distance that pays just as well in the right amount of time."

[Idiotvillage]

Lotro is turbine's product, the buck stops with them. Turbine gave assurances to players with the implementation of f2p about gear with stats not being sold in the store and have categorically failed to live up to them. Really this line was crossed with the introduction of store only relics which are end game items. Assurances that it will only be low level gear being sold are pretty worthless. Turbine's credibility has been damaged.

[LadyDena]

"Despite my having three children to feed and a mortgage boss, I can't stand the way our customers are being ripped off, I quit!"
"Bye."

Later at the house.

"Honey I quit work today."
"What! Why? What happened?"
"They promised not to sell items with stats in the store a couple of years ago and now they've done it. I feel sick at the thought of the players getting lied to like that, I want no part of it."
"And the mortgage?"
"I'm sure I'll find something else around here in commuting distance that pays just as well in the right amount of time."

Pssst here is a secret, LOTRO is a computer game for optional entertainment, not a job that someone needs to keep roof over one's head, well maybe unless you are working for a gold seller lol. Turbine needs its customers far more than its customers need this game. Way to get your perspective WRONG.

[SerendipityUK]

Umm, we were talking about Turbine employees so it is very much a job keeping a roof over someone's head. Did you miss the bit I quoted regarding Giniluv calling employees spineless in the face of WB directives?

[Korgain]

Why do they hate metalsmiths so much??

First no tier 7 tools.
Then they sell tools in the store.
Now this.

[Fuin]

Truth be told I don't really see a reason to go angry out of sudden as Turbine were selling special extra gear slot, smartly called stat tomes, which was upgradeable and could give as much as +50 to all stats in times people were drooling over +20 to all stats cloak of shadow and flame. This was so much more end game gear than this armors are. So I'm not gonna quit over such minor thing. But then every time new p2w stuff appear in turbine store I'm just getting +100 will bonus to not spending my money on Turbine ever. Works flawlessly so far.

[Linwen]

"Despite my having three children to feed and a mortgage boss, I can't stand the way our customers are being ripped off, I quit!"
"Bye."

Later at the house.

"Honey I quit work today."
"What! Why? What happened?"
"They promised not to sell items with stats in the store a couple of years ago and now they've done it. I feel sick at the thought of the players getting lied to like that, I want no part of it."
"And the mortgage?"
"I'm sure I'll find something else around here in commuting distance that pays just as well in the right amount of time."

And here's what I learned: life is too short to waste it. I resigned from two companies that I couldn't stand to work for anymore, and one of them was a behemoth bigger than WB. One of these occasions was in the middle of the financial crisis. It was a highly paid job at a so-called prestigious company. I had excellent prospects there. Some people thought I was crazy for giving that up. When I left, I made it clear to the company, in polite but not uncertain terms, exactly why I was leaving. No "personal reasons," no excuses. And guess what: it was the right thing to do, and it was worth it. We don't live in the age of indentured servitude anymore. If you continue to waste your time on something you have come to hate, it's not because there are no choices.

[Lothirieth]

Pssst here is a secret, LOTRO is a computer game for optional entertainment, not a job that someone needs to keep roof over one's head, well maybe unless you are working for a gold seller lol. Turbine needs its customers far more than its customers need this game. Way to get your perspective WRONG.

I still cannot blame any developer for doing what they are told. In this economic climate, anyone seems easily replaceable. I think you're being a bit unfair to them. Attack the PR people, WB etc, of course. Someone started a thread named something like "It's not the devs you know" and I agree with the points the poster put forward.

[Lothirieth]

And here's what I learned: life is too short to waste it. I resigned from two companies that I couldn't stand to work for anymore, and one of them was a behemoth bigger than WB. One of these occasions was in the middle of the financial crisis. It was a highly paid job at a so-called prestigious company. I had excellent prospects there. Some people thought I was crazy for giving that up. When I left, I made it clear to the company, in polite but not uncertain terms, exactly why I was leaving. No "personal reasons," no excuses. And guess what: it was the right thing to do, and it was worth it. We don't live in the age of indentured servitude anymore. If you continue to waste your time on something you have come to hate, it's not because there are no choices.

Sure, you make very good points. And if someone is comfortable and has the courage to do this, I respect their actions. Not all are as brave or as confident or feel it's the right choice for them. So I'm not going to judge Turbine developers. I don't think that's all that fair. We don't know them, their situation, if they're trying to protest, etc, etc.

[Ellyllon]

This is obviously about more than stat armour. For me, this is an unexpected tipping point, bringing me from 'faint unease but acceptance,' to opening up a fountain of doubt. A lot slipped by me until recently - store-bought potions, relics, a bunch of things that crafters should & do make in game. My metalsmith, who labored over crit tools, had narrowed eyes when those became available in the store. Yes, those stats are a wee bit lower (I think) but considering how hard it is to make them, I'd say wasting mats & gold on something that often doesn't crit probably isn't worth the effort. The crafting system is very, very flawed.

The problem that is arising here seems to me a matter of what SHOULD have been done to correct problems. The solution to 'Grind Relief' shouldn't be 'pay to cut it in half.' It should have been a revised Grind System, be it crafting, deeds, or rep. Instead, they let us buy scrolls. I did it, often enough, but a part of me felt guilty, bad, & led to self-recrimination: 'You just spent real money on this, you nitwit!' The store-stat-armour, in itself, might not be a big deal, but it seems to be opening a wound, & I begin to think of all the other store facets that make me uncomfortable. The "Billboard in Middle Earth" nature of the store is taking over the game. This isn't Tolkien's world anymore. Not to be too dramatic, but it feels like we're entering Scouring of the Shire territory here.

There are many obvious alternatives to sticking armour in the store. Personally, I think crafting should be altered - get rid of crits entirely. (I am liking the ToR system - once you get a crit recipe, it's yours for the making ever-after. Anything else is senseless - single use recipes should diaf. How stupid is my character, to forget after one use, anyway? Legendary items that my brilliant crafters make should be JUST what I intended. No more 'might & parry' on a runekeeper's stone. (my daughter just got these stats on her RK's first legendary) If I'm making a tanking weapon for my captain, I should - skilled weaponsmith that I am - be able to carve in my chosen stats. Crafting alteration would go a long way to making the AH viable - and that would have been a lot better solution for the 'low level players need gear' problem. Failing that, give better skirmish gear. Skirmishes were a GREAT idea - you could set your own group size, and go from there. (I was shocked not to see more added with RoI, btw.)

Story immersion is Priority #1 for me, & I'd like to believe Turbine also shares that priority, rather than luring me in to buy something I used to be able to do as part of the game. (hello, unslotting relics...) This game is based on something magical and brilliant, and people love it. I love it. I'd endure a lot just to stay here, but that love needs to be honored by those currently marketing. I don't doubt, even for a second, that the developers share that love. It shows in 1000 details. I don't know, or care, who is behind these decisions, but the focus has gone off what makes THIS game stand out among the other mmos - it's Tolkien - his world. It's not raids, pvp, rp, or anything else. It's Middle Earth, and our ability to immerse ourselves here. The store has been almost like ambient noise - it's getting louder, & it's drowning out the real music, so to speak. It really, really, really needs to be examined more closely.

[Dhrormr]

Sure, you make very good points. And if someone is comfortable and has the courage to do this, I respect their actions. Not all are as brave or as confident or feel it's the right choice for them. So I'm not going to judge Turbine developers. I don't think that's all that fair. We don't know them, their situation, if they're trying to protest, etc, etc.

Completely right. The management are the ones taking the decisions, the ones having to listen to players and care for them. And the ones having to account and apologize for blatant failures (this part being often overlooked by this same managers ). The devs may have something to say but in the end it's not their role to decide and assume decisions, their role is to make the best and fastest code with the time and money the management allow them.

Even which dev (or translation) team will do what and with which quality level is a management decision.

That's why we have to get a real communication channel, and not just only a forum where we blindly post, hoping "someone" will read for any good, creating frustration and then anger .

I previously mentioned EVE Online as a good model for this with a player-elected Council that represents the interests of the players community and work with CCP (the company creating EVE) about the directions and the future of the game. Yes, you heard well, about the future, no "Ho, we did this, it may be nasty but we did it anyway and then you shout and cry if you please". CCP and the Council share ideas and discuss features *before* they are put into development. Right or wrong at least you don't put players in face of a accomplished fact.
And even when mistakes are made, the crisis is easier to handle.
In a similar situation than ours this has proven to work fine, allowing for the CEO in person hearing and making a public apology : http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672

That's what I call listening to the community !

Given the current mess and the time the problems lasts, we can only hope for Turbine to put something similar in place.

[Abiyah]

The store has been almost like ambient noise - it's getting louder, & it's drowning out the real music, so to speak. It really, really, really needs to be examined more closely.

This was a wonderful post, Elly, and states a lot of my own feelings. But that last sentence got to me. The store is being examined very closely. You can see that in the "add a little at a time" way of doing things. You can see it in things being taken out of the game and put in the store. And to put my darkest thought into words, this is no longer a game with a store in it, it's a store with a game as a drawing point. Lol, it may as well be Wal-Mart with the kids' rides outside the front doors.

I agree 100% that there is love for Tolkien's work being shown in the world development. But it's now being used in a very cheapened manner. Do the folks at Turbine who work on the game, who actually love their work and show it in the game, need to stand up and voice their thoughts to the management that is taking their work and prostituting it? That's a tough choice. Food needs to be put on the table; mortgages/rents need to be paid. Principles don't do either of those things. In the short-term. Because if principles aren't stood for, then self-loathing creeps in and taints all the facets of life. Food doesn't taste as good, and isn't as satisfying. The house becomes gloomy and depressing.

Beyond all else, since a "promise" was given that this wouldn't happen, this is what the step of putting armor in the store leads to.

[Ellyllon]

Oh, ugh - that means we're... and I feel slimy just saying this... but we're the Slow Boiled Frogs!

[LadyDena]

I still cannot blame any developer for doing what they are told. In this economic climate, anyone seems easily replaceable. I think you're being a bit unfair to them. Attack the PR people, WB etc, of course. Someone started a thread named something like "It's not the devs you know" and I agree with the points the poster put forward.

I don't know why you assumed that I was pointing my finger at the devs or anyone, as the word developers never appeared in my post. And yes I saw that other thread, and replied in it precisely my position. If a ship is sinking, does it really matter whether it is the fault of the engineers, the captain, or the builders? Of course not. You just want them to plug the hole so it stops sinking. Thats all that's relevant to players. And as always I encourage people to NOT spend money on a company that repeatedly crossed the lines that they have themselves set down. Does not matter who, or why. It only matters that they DID. And as simply a product of entertainment instead of survival, we as customers are absolutely empowered to dump this and look for other options. They need us a lot more than we need them.

[EvilEirnie]

I compared the stats for Lite Armour:
Store Chest Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Chest +258 Armour +8 Agi +3 will +10 Max power,
Store Trousers Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Trousers +216 Armour +8 will +6.7 ICPR +10 max power,
Store Shoes Tier III: +111 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality +8% Out of Combat Run Speed buff
GB Lvl 25 Shoes +104 Armour +8 Vit +3 will +10 Max power. Not using the Set bonus.

It is Pay 2 Win... A Definite advantage over not using the store Way to go Turbine.

[Abiyah]

I compared the stats for Lite Armour:
Store Chest Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Chest +258 Armour +8 Agi +3 will +10 Max power,
Store Trousers Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Trousers +216 Armour +8 will +6.7 ICPR +10 max power,
Store Shoes Tier III: +111 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality +8% Out of Combat Run Speed buff
GB Lvl 25 Shoes +104 Armour +8 Vit +3 will +10 Max power. Not using the Set bonus.

It is Pay 2 Win... A Definite advantage over not using the store Way to go Turbine.

And if you take the Tier III stats and compare it to level 28 crit-crafted armor, the 1100tp spent for it lasts 3 levels. But oh yeah, there isn't any of that stuff available on the AH.

[Norowen]

If they're willing to sell equipment with stats (for any level) then they're willing to sell everything.

Bad, very, very bad - as in, potentially drive away a huge chunk of players bad. The only people who will like this are those who want to be able to pay for everything you can achieve in game and, although they might be the most profitable store customers, I'd be very surprised if they were numerous (or spendthrift) enough to make up for the loss of money from other players who will un-subscribe, refuse to pay any more money or just outright stop playing at such a blatant step over the convenience-advantage line.

This. Exactly. As well as all the comments from other posters. I'd +rep the whole dang thread if I could.

[Abiyah]

This. Exactly. As well as all the comments from other posters. I'd +rep the whole dang thread if I could.

Lol, you can. Top of the page, "Rate this thread." Give it 5 stars so it gets attention.

[GV-Tanith]

I compared the stats for Lite Armour:
Store Chest Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Chest +258 Armour +8 Agi +3 will +10 Max power,
Store Trousers Tier III: +277 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality,
GB Lvl 25 Trousers +216 Armour +8 will +6.7 ICPR +10 max power,
Store Shoes Tier III: +111 Armour, +8 Will, +8 Fate and +8 Vitality +8% Out of Combat Run Speed buff
GB Lvl 25 Shoes +104 Armour +8 Vit +3 will +10 Max power. Not using the Set bonus.

It is Pay 2 Win... A Definite advantage over not using the store Way to go Turbine.

Would it then be pointless to "fight back" by crafting armor and offering it for sale on the AH? Since they gave that as a reason for starting this, it seemed to be the best response by players. Another player even suggested crafters setting up shop in the starter areas after this nonsense goes live and offering one's services as an alternative to the store armor.

[SabrielofLorien]

Lol, you can. Top of the page, "Rate this thread." Give it 5 stars so it gets attention.

Done and I learned something new! Didn't know you could do that. Thanks.

[Dhrormr]

Would it then be pointless to "fight back" by crafting armor and offering it for sale on the AH? Since they gave that as a reason for starting this, it seemed to be the best response by players. Another player even suggested crafters setting up shop in the starter areas after this nonsense goes live and offering one's services as an alternative to the store armor.

Acting would be the best answer we can give beside this present discussion. I already started producing and selling armors sets of this level and lower (heavy ones mostly) but one can't feed the AH alone given the 30 slots limit.

Let's start real crafting guys

[SabrielofLorien]

A parable of dubious worth... perhaps

Not long ago I played a Flash game, one of those browser games. It was F2P too. I really didn't understand what F2P meant but I played it with some friends. It was not animated and rather simple. There were things you could do that took "time" and they would sell you scrolls to "reduce the time" or "remove the 5 a day limit".

I enjoyed the game a lot. I could log on, get some stuff cranking in the queue and later that evening I could come back and my stuff would be ready for me to continue on to the next queued process.

They had a lottery and gave us a once a day free spin of the wheel. They sold scrolls of all kinds, buffs and timer removals and better gear and a lot of other stuff too.

You could log in and drop $50.00(us) on a set of points. You bought the buffs with these points.

I looked but never bought. So did my friends. We just played the "free part". My friend got up to the top 10 richest players in the game. We just enjoyed it.

Then one day, my friend called and said "They closed the game down." I was shocked. I checked and sure enough the servers were off line and the game closed. The site said something like. Sorry We're Closed.

It didn't take long for us to figure it out. When the game first came on, lots of folks played but over time fewer and fewer stayed. When it crossed some economic threshold the company pulled the plug. It wasn't profitable anymore. The company is still in business and they have a lot of games and probably just recycled the code to a new title.

No it isn't LOTRO/Turbine/WB. But the model is there. That's the one they want. Make the cash. Re-roll.

[Age of Oceans]

End Parable.

They wanted my cash. I gave them some. They wanted more. I gave them some more. Now, they want a LOT more. I will not give it to them/WB/T.

I will not give more than I think it's worth "to me".

However, they may close down sooner than we think. Because, "this" makes "no sense" from a Long Term perspective. It only makes sense if you are here for the "short term" and the timer is expiring and one day we will see "Sorry We're Closed".